Quote from: blakkieThat is NOT the way that post was presented. You should look into the 'and' conjunction.

I'm sorry I didn't define the word assumption for you in my first post. I ASSUMED the readers understood the definition of the word in the first place.

Quote from: KrakaJakI'm sorry I didn't define the word assumption for you in my first post. I ASSUMED the readers understood the definition of the word in the first place.

That ain't the problem.

Quote from: blakkieThat ain't the problem.

Then how about you take your problem to another thread, instead of derailing an unrelated one with your little bickering?

Quote from: J ArcaneThen how about you take your problem to another thread, instead of derailing an unrelated one with your little bickering?

Sounds good to me
To re-iterate what I'm saying, without observations:
 
I think the reason there is the huge Margin between major and independent games is the independent games trend toward marketing themselves only to "gamers" instead of to everyone, hoping for a percentage of what is already small sub-culture.
 
The major publishers however, marketed to everyone. With no restraints on who their customer base could be, and an appealing product to a broad range of people, were much more successful.

Quote from: J ArcaneThen how about you take your problem to another thread, instead of derailing an unrelated one with your little bickering?

Ya, looking back I'm not sure exactly WTF that portion of his post had to do with much at all regarding the topic, only tangentally related as it was. :/  My bad for paying any attention to it.

Quote from: KrakaJakI think the reason there is the huge Margin between major and independent games is the independent games trend toward marketing themselves only to "gamers" instead of to everyone, hoping for a percentage of what is already small sub-culture.

Oddly I don't see that as anything universal in "independant" games. Sure there are a lot that are focused on living in the shadow. But a number of them seem targeted at selling to people that might be interested in games period, and are willing to push the envelope of what RPGs have traditionally done. Sometimes a lot, and certainly to the point where they have the opportunity to tap into some very different markets.

How successful they will be? How hard will they push it? *shrug* Time will tell.

EDIT: Incidentally this is where I find RPGPundit's position to reek of Swine. He has basically said stop going anywhere, D&D is the only market that ever was or will be. So stop thinking about doing different things.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhen the WW crowd was on top, they certainly were singing a different tune than any of THEM are now. There was no "mercy for the defeated" when it looked like the only thing we'd ever see was story-based games filled with metaplot till the end of time.

White Wolf was never #1 in either market or players.  They have steadily kept the #2 RPG spot (behind D&D/TSR) from the early nineties Vampire boom.  You're trying to make out that there was some sort of war, but it makes no sense.  D&D3 hasn't "defeated" Vampire, since Vampire is still the #2 game on the market just as it was in the mid-nineties.  

(Though really the company in the lead through most of the nineties was unquestionably Wizards of the Coast -- makers of "The Primal Order" (and followups) along with "The Compleat Adventurer" (and followups) -- who were catapulted into the top position by Magic: the Gathering and dropped their role-playing efforts.)  

What doesn't seem to get through to you (or to certain others) is that there is room for both Storyteller-style games with metaplot and dungeon crawls.  In fact, there's room for a huge variety: story games with only sketchy setting and no GM, larp systems, Storyteller-style dice-pool games with metaplot supplements, dungeons crawls, universal systems (like Hero, GURPS, or True20), etc.  There's no need for a war, and indeed the concept of calling it a war is stupid since the conflict consists mainly of pathetic gits like yourself calling the other side names on the Internet as if that's going to make a difference.  

Quote from: RPGPunditBut likewise, I can say now that I seriously doubt that if somehow, in the extremely unlikely event happened that Forge-style games were "on top" (something that could really only happen if every major gaming company, including WW, were to go under), your side would be any more generous with your treatment of traditional play and traditional players.  If Marc Rein·Hagen's crowd is the fucking Comintern, you guys are Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge.
The triumphalism and the purges would make the late 90s look like a paradise for trad gamers.

Um, purges?  Pol Pot?  Get a fucking grip.  What the hell do you think I would do to you?  Take away your inhaler and stomp on your dice?  

Never mind whether I would do it.  How the hell do you think that I would "purge" other traditional gamers like myself?

Quote from: jhkimNever mind whether I would do it.  How the hell do you think that I would "purge" other traditional gamers like myself?

WITH THE HOLY CLEANSING FIRE!
:verkill:

I have only one minor stinking little qualm...

You talk about there not being a war between WW and D&D. I took a break from gaming during that entire period so I'm ambivalent to the entire debate. But then you say:

Quote from: jhkimWhat doesn't seem to get through to you (or to certain others) is that there is room for both Storyteller-style games with metaplot and dungeon crawls.

I know you say you are also a traditional gamer. I have no reason to doubt you. But this seems strange to me. You give two options:

• Storyteller-style games with meta-plot
• Dungeon Crawls

I assume you mean WW = #1; D&D = #2. The inference I draw from a statement like that is that traditional games are good for nothing more than dungeon crawls. It's the kind of statement that ends up getting hackles up.  And from what I've read from you, that can't really be how you feel, correct?

Quote from: James J SkachI assume you mean WW = #1; D&D = #2. The inference I draw from a statement like that is that traditional games are good for nothing more than dungeon crawls. It’s the kind of statement that ends up getting hackles up.  And from what I’ve read from you, that can’t really be how you feel, correct?

D&D has always been aimed at dungeon crawls and above ground senarios that are structured like dungeon crawls. Just has. That's what it does best. You can "use" it for something else, but ultimately to do so you make up a bunch of new rules (written down or not), often supplanting what is already there, in the process.

Which is where D20, and then OGL, came in. You eventually have sort of a Theseus' ship senario where pretty much every plank has been yanked and replaced for the purpose of making it do something else.

The same way Story-based gaming purged away thousands of traditional gamers in the end of the nineties; by creating an environment where the only books being offered are not just non-traditional books but are downright derogatory toward mainstream RPG play. By making it so that mainstream gamers are told they are not wanted if they are not willing to follow the "in-crowd" and bow at the feet of story-based gaming, and sent that message over and over again through products that specifically make a mockery of all they enjoy, until those gamers leave the hobby.


RPGPundit

Quote from: blakkieD&D has always been aimed at dungeon crawls and above ground senarios that are structured like dungeon crawls. Just has. That's what it does best. You can "use" it for something else, but ultimately to do so you make up a bunch of new rules (written down or not), often supplanting what is already there, in the process.

Which is where D20, and then OGL, came in. You eventually have sort of a Theseus' ship senario where pretty much every plank has been yanked and replaced for the purpose of making it do something else.

Thank you for proving that there's a war going on, RIGHT NOW.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThank you for proving that there's a war going on, RIGHT NOW.

Please readjust your tinfoil hat. The signal doesn't seem to be coming in that clearly.

Quote from: blakkieI failed to see how my denigrating traditional RPGs by claiming that they're incapable of doing anything other than "hack n'slash" proved your point that there's a whole faction of people in the hobby that are actively attacking mainstream gamers and gaming by denigrating traditional RPGs by claiming that they're incapable of doing anything smarter than hack n'slash

Fixed your typo for you.

And, sorry if you don't see my point. It must be hard to tie your shoes in the morning too, huh?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThank you for proving that there's a war going on, RIGHT NOW.

RPGPundit

"There is a war between those who think there is a war and those who don't."
~ Leonard Cohen