Smooth rhetorical move there.

Ned

Quote from: RPGPunditAh. Right.

Well, in any case, Rolemaster was not a significant force in the mid-late nineties.

I think MERP made a bigger impact, but I'm pulling this out of my nether regions.

If I remember correctly, about the same time the German distributor for RM/MERP went down, reducing the influence of ICE's games to an absolute minimum. Which was rather sad, as they made some beautiful books...

Quote from: RPGPunditHaving never been an RM fan, I could be wrong about this.

This is a serious character flaw.

Fortunately, with the upcoming release of Rolemaster Classic, you have been given a golden opportunity to increase your 'wonderfulness'.
:unicorn:

Quote from: RPGPunditAh. Right.

Well, in any case, Rolemaster was not a significant force in the mid-late nineties.

If indeed it ever was.

RPGPundit

Given that Monte Cook ripped off many of the ideas for 3e D&D from Rolemaster (he worked for ICE for a number of years before moving to TSR), I'd have to say that Rolemaster has been a 'significant force' in influencing the RPGs, even if it was itself never a dominant game (although I am pretty sure that it was pretty popular in the mid to late 1980s).

(E.g., with reference to Rolemaster's influence on 3e, Rolemaster had a unified 'higher-is-always-better' mechanic; a system of variable skill point costs for different skills, depending on profession/class; ability scores that improved over time; a unified experience chart for all professions; etc.)

Quote from: SosthenesI think MERP made a bigger impact, but I'm pulling this out of my nether regions....

Your nether regions are correct.  MERP was the second most popular FRPG in the mid to late 1980s (perhaps even into the early 1990s).  It was a distant second to AD&D, of course, but for a time it eclipsed even Runequest.

I was also my favourite game from 1984-1992, and retains a special place in my heart.

I heart MERP.
:emot-flowers:

Quote from: Akrasia(E.g., with reference to Rolemaster's influence on 3e, Rolemaster had a unified 'higher-is-always-better' mechanic; a system of variable skill point costs for different skills, depending on profession/class; ability scores that improved over time; a unified experience chart for all professions; etc.)

Ah, come on. No single point of that hasn't been done in other games, probably even before RM did it. And nothing from that list is very exotic. Apart from the simple fact you don't know which part of the system was done by Monte and which by Jonathan Tweet.

Quote from: AkrasiaYour nether regions are correct.

I get that a lot.

Quote from: AkrasiaGiven that Monte Cook ripped off many of the ideas for 3e D&D from Rolemaster (he worked for ICE for a number of years before moving to TSR), I'd have to say that Rolemaster has been a 'significant force' in influencing the RPGs, even if it was itself never a dominant game (although I am pretty sure that it was pretty popular in the mid to late 1980s).

(E.g., with reference to Rolemaster's influence on 3e, Rolemaster had a unified 'higher-is-always-better' mechanic; a system of variable skill point costs for different skills, depending on profession/class; ability scores that improved over time; a unified experience chart for all professions; etc.)

Quite so. There were plenty of us playing it in the 90s, too and The Guild Companion was a very busy site until the new ICE forums opened.

Ned

Quote from: SosthenesAh, come on. No single point of that hasn't been done in other games, probably even before RM did it. And nothing from that list is very exotic. Apart from the simple fact you don't know which part of the system was done by Monte and which by Jonathan Tweet.

Perhaps so, but when you look at them all together, it's pretty compelling. And bear in mind that Monte Cook worked for ICE for a number of years before his TSR gig.

Ned

Quote from: SosthenesAh, come on. No single point of that hasn't been done in other games, probably even before RM did it. And nothing from that list is very exotic. Apart from the simple fact you don't know which part of the system was done by Monte and which by Jonathan Tweet.
...

When I first read D&D 3e I was shocked at how similar it was to Rolemaster.  Indeed, my first reaction was: 'D&D 3e is a hybrid between AD&D and Rolemaster!'

I suppose that it is possible that it is a sheer coincidence that D&D 3e shares so many fundamental features with Rolemaster, and that Monte Cook spent many years working on Rolemaster for ICE (including editing the rather slap-dash later Rolemaster Companions).

But excuse me if I'm somewhat sceptical about this miraculous conjunction of coincidences surrounding the development of D&D 3e. :rolleyes:

(And no, I don't doubt that other games also influenced the design of D&D 3e.  I just find the structural similarity to Rolemaster extraordinary.)

Quote from: AkrasiaThis is a serious character flaw.

Fortunately, with the upcoming release of Rolemaster Classic, you have been given a golden opportunity to increase your 'wonderfulness'.
:unicorn:

I agree with this.  Pundit, you need to hop on board the RM/MERP express.  In terms of mechanically tight fantasy roleplaying they are hard to beat.

Wow, a lot of posts since I logged off yesterday. Let's see what I can respond to:
 
RPGPundit & JHKim: I was not stating that Vampire was the first game that said don't "roll-play". It was the game that declared war on "roll-players" aka a name Many competitor rpgs were calling D&D players. Maybe it was all marketing, as the competition pushed Vampire and WW into the number #2 spot in a big way, and created a very loyal and dedicated following. It was a lot like the old Mac vs. PC battles.
 
Nowadays, it's old hat. Most people don't care. They play Vampire when they want to play a Vampire type game, they play D&D when they want to play a D&D type game, they play Shadowrun...you know the drill. There's no reason to pick sides. All your doing is limiting your choices.
 
I personally don't blame RPGPundit for wanting to quit gaming in the late nineties. WW's games had become a bloated mess of ridiculous Meta-Plot and rules, D&D had been a bloated mess of terrible rules and settings. It's not however, the SWINES fault. Everything that was old had gone stale. No other game really had any steam, besides maybe Munchkin.
 
Everyone: The "war" is over. It was over a long time ago. It was over the day WW started putting out OGL D20 books. It was really really over the day the teams at WW started writing actual Dungeons & Dragons: Ravenloft and Dungeons & Dragons: Warcraft books. It was really reaallly over when they published the most comprehensive and expansive D&D module ever concieved and executed by one of the designers of D&D: Ptolus.
 
Other games have a nice little spotlight going too. There's a lot to play out there. Market data doesn't mean shit: Games are for everyone, and the most successful game companies are the ones that realise this.

Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyPerhaps so, but when you look at them all together, it's pretty compelling. And bear in mind that Monte Cook worked for ICE for a number of years before his TSR gig.

Ned

It was probably a slight influence on D20.

But many people who are anti-D&D like to try to pretend that anything good in the system was "stolen" from their pet games.
In reality, the overwhelming primary influence on D&D 3.0 was older editions of D&D.

That's just obvious to anyone who wants to look at the thing without hidden agendas.

RPGPundit

Quote from: AkrasiaWhen I first read D&D 3e I was shocked at how similar it was to Rolemaster.  Indeed, my first reaction was: 'D&D 3e is a hybrid between AD&D and Rolemaster!'

It may have taken a couple of good things from RM, or more accurately, it WAS influence by Monte and Jonathan's prior experiences in games, period.
They were writing based on what they'd already learnt in other places, I don't think they were specifically saying "Let's base it on system x", except where "system x" equals D&D.

But one thing's for sure, D&D 3.0 certainly doesn't PLAY like Rolemaster does.  Four fucking hours to make a character for Rolemaster Space or whatever it was called; hundreds and hundreds of thousands of charts that the DM had to stop to page through constantly; and all so that your spaceship gets blown up in the first two minutes of play.
My one and only experience with playing Rolemaster. It was not a good one; mind you the DM was an idiot, too.

But I did play quite a lot of MERPS, and that's basically RM "lite". And its about five times fucking heavier than D&D 3.0.  It takes forever to level, your characters are crap at low levels, there's way too many fucking tables for all the wrong things, and its generally a complicated game.

So if you want to claim that Monte Cook borrowed something good from RM, that's fine. But then you also have to admit he had the good sense not to borrow all the things about RM that made it crappier than D&D 3.0.

RPGPundit

Quote from: KrakaJakGames are for everyone, and the most successful game companies are the ones that realise this.

Truth.

Quote from: KrakaJakEveryone: The "war" is over. It was over a long time ago. It was over the day WW started putting out OGL D20 books. It was really really over the day the teams at WW started writing actual Dungeons & Dragons: Ravenloft and Dungeons & Dragons: Warcraft books. It was really reaallly over when they published the most comprehensive and expansive D&D module ever concieved and executed by one of the designers of D&D: Ptolus.

Yes, that was the last war, and its over. I'm over here fighting the next war.

RPGPundit

Quote from: AkrasiaWhen I first read D&D 3e I was shocked at how similar it was to Rolemaster.  Indeed, my first reaction was: 'D&D 3e is a hybrid between AD&D and Rolemaster!'
(And no, I don't doubt that other games also influenced the design of D&D 3e.  I just find the structural similarity to Rolemaster extraordinary.)

I'm not saying that it hasn't been an influence. But even in the points mentioned, there are as many differences as there are similarities. I could pull out several games published before 2000 and find stuff that appears in 3rd edition D&D. Just because one of the authors worked for ICE is not enough evidence for me.

The unified mechanism is basically mandatory for a new RPG. I find more similarity to Interlock/Hero/Fuzion in this regard. Is a single XP table that big a mental leap, especially if you've written "internal consistency" on your agenda in big letters?

The development took quite some time, lots of play-testing (well, not enough, apparently) and several authors, besides Tweet and Cook. Who came up with what is probably a thing even the participants can't remember exactly.

Quote from: RPGPundit... But I did play quite a lot of MERPS, and that's basically RM "lite". And its about five times fucking heavier than D&D 3.0.  It takes forever to level, your characters are crap at low levels, there's way too many fucking tables for all the wrong things, and its generally a complicated game. ...

I have extensive experience with both MERP and D&D 3e.  IME, this claim is completely false.  (Perhaps you simply understand things better now than you did when you tried to play MERP?)

MERP does have more charts than D&D 3e (it's a chart-based game).  But to conclude that this makes MERP 'more complicated' than D&D 3e is bullshit.

As for creating characters and levelling them, MERP (like D&D 3e) has skills and 'hit points'.  Beyond that, D&D 3e has feats, which MERP does not have (beyond the 'background options' that PCs choose at first level).  Moreover, MERP's spell system is somewhat simpler than 3e (it uses 'lists', PCs don't need to 'memorize' spells every day, etc.).   Creating characters and levelling them up is no more difficult in MERP than in D&D 3e -- in fact, I would argue that it is easier in MERP.

As for combat, I think it's a wash between MERP and D&D 3e.  MERP has some complicated stuff like different kinds of criticals, bleeding, etc.  However, it doesn't seem to rely on a battlemat for its resolution, and has not combat 'feats' (the 'mini-rules' in 3e that are violations of the standard rules).

In short, your claim is not support by the facts.