Quote from: spon;1121196Yep - it's a fact that unrestricted capitalism is bad (robber barons, et Al), but badly-regulated capitalism is just as bad. As Melan pointed out, when the corporate bigwigs can bribe the politicians into tax-breaks or monopolies to line their own pockets at the expense not only of the consumers, but also of their competitors (and it's always the smaller ones who fall first), the system ends up failing those at the bottom. There are  no decent jobs and it's very hard to get the capital to fund your own company, whilst those at the very top just get richer and richer.

How can people complain about Amazon from one side of their mouth and complain about the system failing those at the bottom from the other side of their mouth?

No single company has done more for those at the bottom then Amazon and yet Amazon is so bad.

So make up your mind, do you want to help those at the bottom or not?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1121226Oh yeah, like how companies really shouldn't have to provide health insurance because that kind of product is better with more people in the same risk pool. So forcing companies to do it is both fiscally irresponsible and gives everyone a worse product..



 Hey maybe these RPG twitter people only need people to buy their first few books before they can start making things people want and get some momentum going? Tough shit though. Minimum wage laws are a bad compromise but I doubt people are actually ready to severely tax wealth and redistribute it as Universal Basic Income. Can't take money from Rich people and large corps because they need that money to lobby congress and stifle competing innovation. It's not like UBI and universal healthcare wouldn't make starting a small business infinity easier at the cost of some rich people losing vast amounts of money and only having more than they could ever spend in ten lifetimes.

How do you propose those shitty RPG writers get people to buy their shitty products? by force?

Choosing to work for 10 instead of 15 is a free choice, just as it's a free choice not to buy shitty RPGs, so the first company is getting the employee that's willing to work for 10 by a free choice of both. You can't make those shitty writers to have bigger sales while respecting the free choice of people.

But like all commies you abhor freedom.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121209Again this is why I fear commies. Such compassion.
"I would rather everybody starve equally then somebody be paid more".

Not that someone would be paid more but that someone would work 40 hours a week and not have enough money to live on. That's the principle of minimum wage, if you don't have that then its only a matter of time before you're working for two meals a day.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121229But like all commies you abhor freedom.

In this case it's a "The world isn't perfect so I would rather everybody die than live in the imperfect world!"

Utopian thinking. Also extreme assumptions on the thoughts and feelings of others:

"I would not like to work for 10 instead of 15 so EVERYBODY would rather work for 10 and not 15, and those that do are bad people"

Lastly its complete economic illiteracy.

"All jobs can afford to pay 15 and if they can't they must be evil".

Quote from: Altheus;1121231Not that someone would be paid more but that someone would work 40 hours a week and not have enough money to live on.

Work with what and generate WHAT. Work Put in =/= resources put out.

Labour =/= value.

That principle is one of the cornerstones of Marxist economics.

I understand your working off sympathy and empathy, but neither are good foundations of economics because Feelings always falter to reality.

Greetings!

There is no need to *take* money from anyone. There is no need to *redistribute* income from wealthy people. Let them be rich, and be successful. Good for them. As for starting a small business, there is no need for UBI or universal healthcare for that to happen either. It's called being frugal and responsible with your finances. Working hard, maybe even working two jobs, or more, saving and building up financial capital. Then, you start your own business.

Run your business. Compete in the marketplace. Work hard. Provide various products or services. More work. Cultivate networks, friends, and associates. Get involved with the local business community, as well as specialized organizations and related groups involved in your industry or area of interest. Reach out to friends and acquaintances, and get the word out that you are a new business, and offering whatever products and services. Make it known that you are interested in learning and collaborating with other industry professionals, and other entrepreneurs that work in your line of business, or just similar businesses. Always more work. Stay focused, stay committed, and make progress.

That's how it is done.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rhedyn;1121226Oh yeah, like how companies really shouldn't have to provide health insurance because that kind of product is better with more people in the same risk pool. So forcing companies to do it is both fiscally irresponsible and gives everyone a worse product..

Ideally they SHOULDN'T. You should be able to buy healthcare insurance like car-insurance. And medical costs should be/could be cheap enough pay out of pocket for incidental care - like your car - and insurance can cover catastrophic care. Healthcare providers should be able to quote prices and negotiate directly with their patients.

The *REASONS* why this isn't happening is because of cronyism between Insurance companies and politicians. I could go for pages and pages on this. It's possible - our elected officials and their corrupt practices are why it's not happening and they keep trying to foist bullshit non-sustainable ideas like "Medicare for All" slogans on the ignorant public. I'd be happy to discuss this at length (probably better for Pundit's forum) as I work in government healthcare finance/patient informatics for my "normie-job".

The problem you're asserting is an appeal to this notion that NO SOLUTION is ever going to meet the criteria you're suggesting except government control. As someone that is currently 10-miles deep in this for a living - that has rolled out "Obamacare" and the grotesqueness of that frankenstein... I will *happily* dissuade anyone that believes Medicare for All, and the elimination of privatized insurance - at scale - will do anything but cause mortality rates to rise to unprecedented levels.

Companies are at the mercy of Insurance Corporations. It's not "companies" fault. For the same reason YOU and most people reading this have ZERO idea how the Chargemaster works and could quote me a price at your local hospital for a hernia surgery. Much less something more life-threatening. Go to a privately funded surgical clinic - and you bet your ass they can.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1121226Hey maybe these RPG twitter people only need people to buy their first few books before they can start making things people want and get some momentum going? Tough shit though. Minimum wage laws are a bad compromise but I doubt people are actually ready to severely tax wealth and redistribute it as Universal Basic Income. Can't take money from Rich people and large corps because they need that money to lobby congress and stifle competing innovation. It's not like UBI and universal healthcare wouldn't make starting a small business infinity easier at the cost of some rich people losing vast amounts of money and only having more than they could ever spend in ten lifetimes.

Scale. UBI doesn't work at scale. You can tax "the rich" at 100% and it wouldn't solve ANYTHING. It's a fallacy of assuming infinite resources when they aren't. UBI money doesn't come from "nowhere". The problem is the spending our government is doing and the Fed printing money non-stop to keep the carnival of failure going - further exacerbates both this illusion you're operating from that money is endless, which further ignores the growing problem that at some point the devaluation of that currency *will* bottom out. It's the metaphorical "putting out the fire with gasoline" problem.

Which might actually be the real agenda here - revenge against the "rich" (which might be anyone that makes "more" than a "living wage"?) seems to be the real motive in these circles.

Why should someone that creates deserve to be paid where that sum is some nebulous standard that changes depends on where one stands on the geographic point of this sphere we call Earth? And why should anyone outside of that equation be married to that scenario BY FORCE?

To what degree is ANYONE beholden to another person's financial well-being? I'm interested to hear your opinion.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121227True, I do tend to throw it around as a derogative. I should stop doing so in order to stop muddying the water.
However, I do find your attitude repugnant. You are saying that options that don't meet your arbitrary standards should not even exist. That you would rather have unemployed people then people paid less.

With that kind of utterly warped and sick perspective, I don't have much to add.

I wasn't going to point out that the other extreme is children getting maimed in factories and sweatshops with suicide nets where the workers put in 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Yes, the government has to prevent things like that because "muh free market" doesn't. That's not the same thing as being a communist.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121229How do you propose those shitty RPG writers get people to buy their shitty products? by force?

Choosing to work for 10 instead of 15 is a free choice, just as it's a free choice not to buy shitty RPGs, so the first company is getting the employee that's willing to work for 10 by a free choice of both. You can't make those shitty writers to have bigger sales while respecting the free choice of people.

But like all commies you abhor freedom.

Who are you arguing with??

I propose that no one buys shitty RPGs written by shitty RPG writers.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121229How do you propose those shitty RPG writers get people to buy their shitty products? by force?

Choosing to work for 10 instead of 15 is a free choice, just as it's a free choice not to buy shitty RPGs, so the first company is getting the employee that's willing to work for 10 by a free choice of both. You can't make those shitty writers to have bigger sales while respecting the free choice of people.

But like all commies you abhor freedom.

The problem with me is - people like you say what I'm saying more directly and efficiently.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1121236I wasn't going to point out that the other extreme is children getting maimed in factories and sweatshops with suicide nets where the workers put in 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Yes, the government has to prevent things like that because "muh free market" doesn't. That's not the same thing as being a communist.

Is that what's happening in these RPG writing factories that are spread out all over America and Europe? I'm stunned at this news.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1121236I wasn't going to point out that the other extreme is children getting maimed in factories and sweatshops with suicide nets where the workers put in 12 hours a day 6 days a week. Yes, the government has to prevent things like that because "muh free market" doesn't. That's not the same thing as being a communist.


Who are you arguing with??

I propose that no one buys shitty RPGs written by shitty RPG writers.

LOL, citing shit happening in China and linking that to "free market".

Quote from: tenbones;1121235Ideally they SHOULDN'T. You should be able to buy healthcare insurance like car-insurance. And medical costs should be/could be cheap enough pay out of pocket for incidental care - like your car - and insurance can cover catastrophic care. Healthcare providers should be able to quote prices and negotiate directly with their patients.

The *REASONS* why this isn't happening is because of cronyism between Insurance companies and politicians. I could go for pages and pages on this. It's possible - our elected officials and their corrupt practices are why it's not happening and they keep trying to foist bullshit non-sustainable ideas like "Medicare for All" slogans on the ignorant public. I'd be happy to discuss this at length (probably better for Pundit's forum) as I work in government healthcare finance/patient informatics for my "normie-job".

The problem you're asserting is an appeal to this notion that NO SOLUTION is ever going to meet the criteria you're suggesting except government control. As someone that is currently 10-miles deep in this for a living - that has rolled out "Obamacare" and the grotesqueness of that frankenstein... I will *happily* dissuade anyone that believes Medicare for All, and the elimination of privatized insurance - at scale - will do anything but cause mortality rates to rise to unprecedented levels.

Companies are at the mercy of Insurance Corporations. It's not "companies" fault. For the same reason YOU and most people reading this have ZERO idea how the Chargemaster works and could quote me a price at your local hospital for a hernia surgery. Much less something more life-threatening. Go to a privately funded surgical clinic - and you bet your ass they can.

Oh I agree with you, government controlled insurance is going to be a shit-show. What I'm trying to illuminate here is that private insurance is also a shit-show. Big companies are just as dumb as the government (once you start making billions of revenue, no one really knows what is going on anymore). It's a shit-show either way, but if everyone is in the same risk pool, then health insurance is cheaper. Problems like these are why utilities exist. Sometimes a bunch of people trying to do the same essential function is just needless inefficient.

Quote from: tenbones;1121235Scale. UBI doesn't work at scale. You can tax "the rich" at 100% and it wouldn't solve ANYTHING. It's a fallacy of assuming infinite resources when they aren't. UBI money doesn't come from "nowhere". The problem is the spending our government is doing and the Fed printing money non-stop to keep the carnival of failure going - further exacerbates both this illusion you're operating from that money is endless, which further ignores the growing problem that at some point the devaluation of that currency *will* bottom out. It's the metaphorical "putting out the fire with gasoline" problem.

Which might actually be the real agenda here - revenge against the "rich" (which might be anyone that makes "more" than a "living wage"?) seems to be the real motive in these circles.

Oh I don't need it to work. I just like the idea of this money getting freed up and spent. And it really doesn't hurt anyone you should take it from (though democrats will still go after the upper-poor because they are just as bought as everyone else). I like the idea of a wealth tax of 100% after a billion. No one needs a billion dollars and no one really earned a billion dollars (they took it). But they definitely don't nee more than a billion.

Quote from: tenbones;1121235Why should someone that creates deserve to be paid where that sum is some nebulous standard that changes depends on where one stands on the geographic point of this sphere we call Earth? And why should anyone outside of that equation be married to that scenario BY FORCE?

To what degree is ANYONE beholden to another person's financial well-being? I'm interested to hear your opinion.

They shouldn't. This tangent started because some people are confused why not-capitalism is becoming so popular. My own confidence in the the system without serious regulation was lost when I worked for a large company and made good money doing nothing useful.

Ethically we are beholden to everyone's financial well-being. Poor can be a death sentence and our moral outrage at that notion is why social programs exist. It's also why people are interested in the economy doing well. People prefer if the economy is fair and that effort*talent translates into tangible awards. I don't like seeing talented people slave away and get no-where while the suits live in their own little world where their connections are better than anyone else's competence. But none of that has anything to do with RPGs. People still have enough money to buy the one's that are good and probably always will.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1121226Oh yeah, like how companies really shouldn't have to provide health insurance because that kind of product is better with more people in the same risk pool. So forcing companies to do it is both fiscally irresponsible and gives everyone a worse product..



 Hey maybe these RPG twitter people only need people to buy their first few books before they can start making things people want and get some momentum going? Tough shit though. Minimum wage laws are a bad compromise but I doubt people are actually ready to severely tax wealth and redistribute it as Universal Basic Income. Can't take money from Rich people and large corps because they need that money to lobby congress and stifle competing innovation. It's not like UBI and universal healthcare wouldn't make starting a small business infinity easier at the cost of some rich people losing vast amounts of money and only having more than they could ever spend in ten lifetimes.

Define "rich".

Also...

Quote from: SHARK;1121234Greetings!

There is no need to *take* money from anyone. There is no need to *redistribute* income from wealthy people. Let them be rich, and be successful. Good for them. As for starting a small business, there is no need for UBI or universal healthcare for that to happen either. It's called being frugal and responsible with your finances. Working hard, maybe even working two jobs, or more, saving and building up financial capital. Then, you start your own business.

Run your business. Compete in the marketplace. Work hard. Provide various products or services. More work. Cultivate networks, friends, and associates. Get involved with the local business community, as well as specialized organizations and related groups involved in your industry or area of interest. Reach out to friends and acquaintances, and get the word out that you are a new business, and offering whatever products and services. Make it known that you are interested in learning and collaborating with other industry professionals, and other entrepreneurs that work in your line of business, or just similar businesses. Always more work. Stay focused, stay committed, and make progress.

That's how it is done.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Very well put.

Quote from: tenbones;1121237The problem with me is - people like you say what I'm saying more directly and efficiently.

The problem with me is - people like you say what I'm saying without sounding like an antagonizing asshole.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121233In this case it's a "The world isn't perfect so I would rather everybody die than live in the imperfect world!"

Utopian thinking. Also extreme assumptions on the thoughts and feelings of others:

"I would not like to work for 10 instead of 15 so EVERYBODY would rather work for 10 and not 15, and those that do are bad people"

Lastly its complete economic illiteracy.

"All jobs can afford to pay 15 and if they can't they must be evil".



Work with what and generate WHAT. Work Put in =/= resources put out.

Labour =/= value.

That principle is one of the cornerstones of Marxist economics.

I understand your working off sympathy and empathy, but neither are good foundations of economics because Feelings always falter to reality.

I acknowledge that work has no intrinsic value, and I'm really no kind of marxist, I just believe in the principle of a fair days' work for a fair days' pay. Of course, that relies on your definition of fair.

Quote from: Altheus;1121244I acknowledge that work has no intrinsic value, and I'm really no kind of marxist, I just believe in the principle of a fair days' work for a fair days' pay. Of course, that relies on your definition of fair.

I've done a lot of work through staffing services "temp agencies", where you deal with what they offer, because the alternative is to simply not work in the field anymore.
The agencies are used to keep from giving out raises and competitive benefits for good work, when they flush the current batch of temps down the toilet and hire new bodies to fill slots.

While I'm no Marxist myself, I do recognize that "the market" does have the danger of grinding people up in it's cogs, and we should be aware of that danger.