I guess I just see RPGs, Xboxes and Frappucinos as having nothing to do with a living wage. Income enough to not die? That's a living wage.

Aren't these some of the same people that have told sections of the gamer community that they "literally don't want your money? "

They seem to think we're in TNG Federation's utopia Earth,  but the real world is more like Ferenginar (except the women are clothed unless they choose not to be).

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1120985"Living Wage" means fucking NOTHING. Living in a box with nutrient paste and a rat for entertainment is a living wage.

Quote from: Alderaan CrumbsI guess I just see RPGs, Xboxes and Frappucinos as having nothing to do with a living wage. Income enough to not die? That's a living wage.

Well, you're neither of you wrong, but there's raw survival and then there's living. Every major philosophy has recognized that even the absolute minimum requirements for human psychological health go beyond pure technical physical survival; the whole point of Maslow's hierarchy of needs is that while the hierarchy dictates which needs are more urgent, by definition they're all needs and missing any of them is a genuine problem.

That said, while all the needs may be important, the desire to meet both an economic need and a psychological one through the same action is not something anybody else is obliged to fulfill for you. It's a bonus if what we do to make a living and what we love to do are the same action, but nobody else can bring that about -- although, fortunately, most humans are actually quite good at learning to like doing what they find they can profit by, or to find ways to profit by what they like doing. They simply have to be willing to adapt and put in the work.

Quote from: Brad;1120931Why is it the people who do the least useful work are the ones who complain the most about a "livable wage"? I can replace a cashier with a kiosk and a robot can flip hamburgers; writing new RPGs doesn't even approach the level of usefulness of either of those tasks. Not to mention, none of those people actually want to work, anyway, which is the main point of your video. They just want to do a $500k Kickstarter based on something they MIGHT do, then expect everyone to buy fifty copies of it with zero marketing.

What's really funny is how hard Gygax busted his ass to make D&D. Publishing a boxed set in 1974 was probably 10x harder than today, and that dude had a full-time job and a family to support.

Because they're weak of ethical and moral character and view the world through their own infantile bubble of self-loathing narcissism which demands the world cater to them.

Edit: I work my ass off at my day job. I'd RATHER be doing full-time writing and game-design to feed my family, put my children through college, and pay off my mortgage. But you know... *REALITY* is a motherfucker. Welcome to it, children.

Quote from: tenbones;1120992Because they're weak of ethical and moral character and view the world through their own infantile bubble of self-loathing narcissism which demands the world cater to them.

Edit: I work my ass off at my day job. I'd RATHER be doing full-time writing and game-design to feed my family, put my children through college, and pay off my mortgage. But you know... *REALITY* is a motherfucker. Welcome to it, children.

Ding-ding-ding!

I honestly hate this attitude. I see it a lot in self-publishing fiction circles too - the "why can't people see that I'm so much better than author XYZ" and "the average reader is too shallow to understand my work" complaints make it hard to try to socialize or network with a lot of people trying to break into writing, as does the aforementioned "why can't people just pay me to create" whine we're seeing from so-called Creators here. I have no illusions about my own body of work - that's why I still have a full-time job as a technical writer and appreciate the small amount my creative side ventures have brought me in the brief windows my life/work are calm enough to hammer out fiction on the side - nobody should subsidize my life just because my ego says I tell a good story. If I can't go out there and make people believe it (and I'm pretty awful about self promotion), then "don't quite your day job" is the reality I have to live by, and so do they whether they believe it or not.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1120990Well, you're neither of you wrong, but there's raw survival and then there's living. Every major philosophy has recognized that even the absolute minimum requirements for human psychological health go beyond pure technical physical survival; the whole point of Maslow's hierarchy of needs is that while the hierarchy dictates which needs are more urgent, by definition they're all needs and missing any of them is a genuine problem.

I believe even Maslow doesn't really recognize that heirarchy as the be all end all of mental examination. This doesn't undo the fact that "Living Wage" is just a buzzword of bullshit.

Quote from: tenbones;1120992Because they're weak of ethical and moral character and view the world through their own infantile bubble of self-loathing narcissism which demands the world cater to them.

Edit: I work my ass off at my day job. I'd RATHER be doing full-time writing and game-design to feed my family, put my children through college, and pay off my mortgage. But you know... *REALITY* is a motherfucker. Welcome to it, children.

My question was rhetorical, but expected this answer.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120979The tweet that started it all. The important thing to realize is that she isn't talking about writing game material like rules or adventures, she's talking about making D&D livestreams. That's why she's using terms like "creators" and is talking about D&D as a "medium".

https://twitter.com/dreamwisp/status/1219793872844292098

Ah, okay. I thought the people working on livestreams were aspiring actors using the gig for their portfolio. They really think they're going to earn a living from this? Yet another dumb belief Critical Role has to answer for.

If you are making 30K a year making RPGs, that is a living wage in the Midwest and your parents can co-sign on that mortgage (cash in on that privileged you are so guilty about) and you can rent out rooms to local friends, then you could live very comfortably.

I don't think you are entitled to move away from family to Seattle or some other big city and expect your location-independent career to take off. (I think you could argue that people do have a right to have gainful employment where all there friends and family grew up, rather than breaking up communities by expecting everyone to move and see relatives once a year).

The self-described "communicator" Talien at ENWorld wrote a typically mindless diatribe arguing for this living wage nonsense for RPGers a couple of years ago. As expected, it enjoying a lot of popular support.

Karl Marx must be so happy that his perverted and oft-discredited labour theory of value still finds adherents even after a century where that theory helped murder more than 100 million people.

Quote from: Mishihari;1120921Well the usual way to demand higher wages is to go on strike.  They should try that.  

LOL. Awesome!

Quote from: Brad;1120931What's really funny is how hard Gygax busted his ass to make D&D. Publishing a boxed set in 1974 was probably 10x harder than today, and that dude had a full-time job and a family to support.

THIS is absolutely true.

And it was FAR easier to do in 1974 than 1954 or 1934.

Quote from: Brad;1120949For instance, if I decide to be an artist and make sculptures, I should be paid the same amount as a doctor or engineer because we shouldn't have to give up our dreams for money.

Here's the joke though.

As a sculptor, you could earn equal or more than a doctor or engineer.

Or somewhat less. Or not even a pittance.

That's the crapshoot of being an entrepreneur selling luxury goods. And if you're just the sculptor who never gets involved with sales and only crafts your dreams, you have made your financial road harder, but still not impossible if you have an audience with open wallets.

Quote from: Brad;1120974Does this clown realize capitalism is the vehicle that allows his creation to exist?

I blame the school system. I have no idea how we've allowed multiple generations to not understand how everything they have is entirely provided by capitalism, and if they want more, that's only coming through more capitalism.

Quote from: Mishihari;1120921Well the usual way to demand higher wages is to go on strike.  They should try that.  

If they can do it and make it stick then they deserve higher rates. However, there isn't that much money sloshing around the rpg industry so this may have strange and unexpected side effects.

Quote from: Haffrung;1120962For those of us not on Twitter, is there any screen caps or links to where this is being discussed?

Its all over. About every few months either an artist or designer posts a bitch rant over there about how they should be payed sight unseen the same fees and royalties as a veteran designer. Or they should be payed more and more because "dat mean ol' greedy publisher is a taken alla muh munny!!!" wah way ad fucking idiocracy.

And of course blow up in a rage when you explain to them the logistics of game publishing.

"Well the players should just have to pay more!" is sometimes their response.

Alot of this tends to stem from pure ignorance of game development costs. This tend to be the really hard lesson designers learn the hard way when they hie off to Kickstarted with visions of dollar signs in their eyes and then POW!!! "Jesus Christ this costs so much to produce and it takes so much planning and oraganization and connections and more cost and retailer cuts and arrrrgh!!!"

Quote from: Spinachcat;1121037I blame the school system. I have no idea how we've allowed multiple generations to not understand how everything they have is entirely provided by capitalism, and if they want more, that's only coming through more capitalism.

That's an easy one.  Many of the people instructing each new generation have gone straight from being educated themselves to educating others without any personal experience about how the world really works in between.  So we get regurgitated notions from the past and new nonsense these folks come up with based purely on theory without any benefit of experience.  I believe that I find a lot less of this in my two professions (engineering and business) only because the people doing the instruction have to to have real world experience.

Quote from: Mishihari;1121100That's an easy one.  Many of the people instructing each new generation have gone straight from being educated themselves to educating others without any personal experience about how the world really works in between.  So we get regurgitated notions from the past and new nonsense these folks come up with based purely on theory without any benefit of experience.  I believe that I find a lot less of this in my two professions (engineering and business) only because the people doing the instruction have to to have real world experience.

Or you work in a large company and realize wealth is accumulating at the top by no virtue than simply having a lot of money in the first place.

I'm only on capitalism's side when it promotes innovation and I am rapidly being convinced that the search for quarter by quarter profits are leading to less and less innovation. (Also people can't afford to buy cool new stuff if rich people have all the money).