Quote from: Shasarak;1121349Coming from a country (NZ) where we have national healthcare for everyone, I can tell you that it is not 2020 cutting edge healthcare and on the otherhand we dont let people walk around with their intestines hanging out either.

But honestly paying for RPGs is a luxury compared to healthcare.

Pretty much, as someone whose views skew more and more towards Libertarnism, I'd be a hypocrite if I said I don't believe in any kind of medical care program for the poor. I benefited from it, I got lucky my state was willing to take the subsidies so I could get my operation. I know there were a lot of states that didn't, and if I'd been in one of those, I would have been screwed. Now having my own insurance, it's better than what I had with Obamacare, but I also pay for it.

I'd like to think there's some happy middle we can reach where if you're dirt poor like I was, you can still get basic healthcare so you can become a productive member of society... but also keep your better healthcare when you have a Job and you're able to pay for it. I really don't want there to be an "All or nothing" kind of thing.... But that's the great riddle of Healthcare in the U.S. right now sadly.

Quote from: tenbones;1121351Some thoughts on your points...

1) Agreed.
2) Agreed.
3) Disagree. In fact I think outside of D&D this is reversed. Non-D&D players *want* more books for their gamelines depending on if they're GM's and likely their age. At my age - I have a lot of disposable income so I will devour gamelines that I find useful. As for D&D - I suspect people WANT more books, but at scale, perhaps WotC isn't willing to put them out because of diminishing returns? Who knows. I stopped wondering about their business practices after 3.x

BUT - I don't think any of these are the direct reasons why way less people work as full-time RPG writers. The real reasons are as follows:

1) Most RPG companies are small affairs. It takes a lot of thought and work to develop and idea and bring it to market. The people willing to do that are few and far between.

2) The margins on RPG sales is tiny. Sure there are exceptions - but they're outliers. But it takes a lot of effort to have a day-job to finance the creation of a product and bring it to market. People that just "write" RPG's and demand to get paid a "living wage" whatever that is, without consideration of their skill or talent or the factors that demand higher pay for quality - is absurd on its face, and simply not practical generally speaking. Most RPG studio owner wear like half-a-dozen hats that might otherwise be nearly full-time jobs in other businesses. Paying a work-for-hire more than you're probably making doesn't seem worth hiring that person unless they're some luminary like Hite or Pondsmith.

3) The ability to get a work-for-hire job in RPG's is *not* hard. You have to simply prove you can write, and produce salable ideas. But people that can actually DO that... is a pretty small pool. As the graveyard of RPG games will attest for varying reasons beyond the obvious.

You can't squeeze water out of a rock. But you can stack rocks and make a dam. The question is how much effort are you willing to put into it?

Greetings!

*laughs* Indeed, my friend! You make some excellent points. You know, it has been my observation over the years that there are many, many people that *believe* they are talented, brilliant writers.

Sad to say, though, the vast majority of them suck terribly. It is important to note as well that there are some different skill-sets involved. There is fiction writing, travelogue-esque vivid, colourful, fluid writing, all that good stuff. Then there is your uber technical editors and layout and organization people. Sometimes the skill sets overlap to some degree, but often they are separate. Both sets of skills are meaningful and worthwhile. However, many people have highly inflated views of their actual skills, in either regard. They just aren't that special.

Beyond that, there is basic work ethics, basic organization ability, capability in meeting deadlines, improvising, compromising, and making a product thorough, and complete, and finishing it. Many people fail entirely at these essential skills all the time.

Everyone seems to think they can be a writer. Just like many people believe they can be an entrepreneur, and run their own business. The harsh truth is, most people simply don't have the talent for any of this, nor do they have the work ethic and determination to make up for any lack of writing skills and blast through with organization and getting projects done in an efficient and workable manner. It is a relatively small pool of talented people that can actually write reasonably well, and people that possess the basic work ethic and skills to produce and get things done.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121345how can we make health care cheaper to provide, not just cheaper for the recipient to pay for.

1) Create legislation that allows citizens to purchase insurance *across* state lines. This immediately puts all insurance companies in direct competition with one another.

2) Roll back legislation that prevents free-association plans to create pools for insurance companies to cater to. This will benefit small-businesses and individuals. These pools can negotiate in *bulk*. This will also allow people with chronic and pre-existing conditions to leverage their own significant numbers for their own benefit without dragging young healthy people through the wringer (as well as everyone else).

3) Emphasis on catastrophic healthcare insurance over insurance claims for everything.

4) Remove government/insurance company control over the Chargemaster billing. This is what dictates what the government will reimburse providers for using Medicaid - or the cost the insurance company will negotiate with the providers for reimbursement. It incentivizes providers to work fast and dirty, and churn through patients because those reimbursements aren't matching the rising costs of everything else - especially #5. This would allow healthcare providers to deal directly with their patients - this is especially important for those with low-income.

5) Tort reform to reduce costs on providers spending UNGODLY amounts of time, effort and money doing extra work (unnecessary lab tests, and procedures) JUST to justify themselves to avoid potential malpractice lawsuits. This also costs healthcare providers a tremendous amount of their own income and de-incentivises more and more people from being healthcare professionals.

6) Personal responsibility. Needs to be said. Live a healthy lifestyle. Be pro-active about your own health.


You'll see healthcare costs drops significantly. Some U.S. healthcare providers are ALREADY doing some of these things by setting up shop outside the country.

Edit: "Cheaper to provide" Given that America does *by far* the most medical research in the world... this would be addressed on a case by case basis. You trade off "cheaper to provide" - by living in Canada, Australia, NZ, and the UK, for instance with instant availability here. And the quality of healthcare for the really big diseases are the best in the world.

Quote from: SHARK;1121353Greetings!

*laughs* Indeed, my friend! You make some excellent points. You know, it has been my observation over the years that there are many, many people that *believe* they are talented, brilliant writers.

Sad to say, though, the vast majority of them suck terribly. It is important to note as well that there are some different skill-sets involved. There is fiction writing, travelogue-esque vivid, colourful, fluid writing, all that good stuff. Then there is your uber technical editors and layout and organization people. Sometimes the skill sets overlap to some degree, but often they are separate. Both sets of skills are meaningful and worthwhile. However, many people have highly inflated views of their actual skills, in either regard. They just aren't that special.

Beyond that, there is basic work ethics, basic organization ability, capability in meeting deadlines, improvising, compromising, and making a product thorough, and complete, and finishing it. Many people fail entirely at these essential skills all the time.

Everyone seems to think they can be a writer. Just like many people believe they can be an entrepreneur, and run their own business. The harsh truth is, most people simply don't have the talent for any of this, nor do they have the work ethic and determination to make up for any lack of writing skills and blast through with organization and getting projects done in an efficient and workable manner. It is a relatively small pool of talented people that can actually write reasonably well, and people that possess the basic work ethic and skills to produce and get things done.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Writing well is a skill that can be developed. It takes discipline to do *anything* well. If you have raw talent it can take you far, but without discipline you won't sustain yourself. If you have both - then you can potentially be great.

As someone that does work-for-hire stuff in this industry, I can unequivocally say that getting such gigs is *not hard*. But I'm a realist. I do it now, because I love the hobby and I want to only work on stuff I want to work on. My day job pays me *radically* more than I'd ever make simply writing RPG material. I'm saying that because what I do for a living is something that I never intended but I have this job purely because of my discipline and technical acumen. But again - I never got into this by intent. Familial obligations (having children will do that) drove me here.

Most of these people that are demanding "a living wage" have all the hallmarks of burger-flippers that likewise demand a "living wage". To what degree are they serving anyone other than themselves? The market decides these things when it comes to Work-For-Hire.

Otherwise don't take the job? Better - put yourself in the arena and create your own game, produce it, distribute it, and sell it. Then see for yourself how much you think your writers deserve of your own efforts because of the same entitled attitude. But that will likely never happen because it takes discipline to do that. Something in short supply for folks making these demands.

I would simply ban insurance and let people die and doctors starve until their prices became reasonable again, and they would have to or docs would have to find other jobs. My father was born in 43 in a wood shack insulated by cardboard and was delivered by a slaughterhouse butcher, not a doc, for a little cash a little shine and some potatoes. This pampered world needs an enema.

Quote from: tenbones;1121360Writing well is a skill that can be developed. It takes discipline to do *anything* well. If you have raw talent it can take you far, but without discipline you won't sustain yourself. If you have both - then you can potentially be great.

As someone that does work-for-hire stuff in this industry, I can unequivocally say that getting such gigs is *not hard*. But I'm a realist. I do it now, because I love the hobby and I want to only work on stuff I want to work on. My day job pays me *radically* more than I'd ever make simply writing RPG material. I'm saying that because what I do for a living is something that I never intended but I have this job purely because of my discipline and technical acumen. But again - I never got into this by intent. Familial obligations (having children will do that) drove me here.

Most of these people that are demanding "a living wage" have all the hallmarks of burger-flippers that likewise demand a "living wage". To what degree are they serving anyone other than themselves? The market decides these things when it comes to Work-For-Hire.

Otherwise don't take the job? Better - put yourself in the arena and create your own game, produce it, distribute it, and sell it. Then see for yourself how much you think your writers deserve of your own efforts because of the same entitled attitude. But that will likely never happen because it takes discipline to do that. Something in short supply for folks making these demands.

Greetings!

Good stuff, my friend! Yep, all about the discipline! You know, I think a pretty good example of someone we know is Venger. I think I heard him remark that he's really not that good of a writer, but goddamn, his work ethic is off the charts! Whatever talents Venger may have started with, he has over time improved constantly, struggled, and worked hard. I would say he is quite happy and very successful, even inspiring. I know I admire his tenacity, his work ethic, and his crazy sense of fun, and his gracious, cool nature.

All these wanna-be writers crying about "living wages". Geesus. I'm sorry if they only have the ability to shovel French fries or be a barista at Starbucks. Get some real education, get some real discipline and skill, and learn to DIG, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1121362Greetings!

Good stuff, my friend! Yep, all about the discipline! You know, I think a pretty good example of someone we know is Venger. I think I heard him remark that he's really not that good of a writer, but goddamn, his work ethic is off the charts! Whatever talents Venger may have started with, he has over time improved constantly, struggled, and worked hard. I would say he is quite happy and very successful, even inspiring. I know I admire his tenacity, his work ethic, and his crazy sense of fun, and his gracious, cool nature.

All these wanna-be writers crying about "living wages". Geesus. I'm sorry if they only have the ability to shovel French fries or be a barista at Starbucks. Get some real education, get some real discipline and skill, and learn to DIG, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My wife's business to edit novels and get people who want to write fiction into the game and take their work seriously. I help consult with her writers on their ideas and story-structure etc. We sometimes get people relatively new to the writing process and if they're young, and in their 20's... and they all think they have the goods, they think they're the next J.K. Rowling, or King, or Abercrombie or whatever...

And they hand in a manuscript that is dogshit. But my job is to explain WHY their manuscript is dogshit and *it's OKAY* that it's dogshit because most first-drafts are dogshit.

But a lot of these millennial writers are *stunned* when I start pointing out plotholes, weak weak weak character development, dead-end plot-threads and the usual oral ass-dribblings new writers think will make them billionaires. They're super-stunned when they get redlined and have to /gasp re-write their whole manuscript. Then they usually break when they find out there IS no saleable story, and they've essentially wrote a long open-ended anecdote. Or they realize that... wow... you have to meet re-write editorial deadlines??? Because they think that they fart out a bunch of words on the screen whenever they choose, and magical-editors have been putting their entire lives on hold, waiting for the golden-rewrite to arrive.

They realize it's WORK. And I have to tell them - this isn't some salary job, dummy. This is WORK. And you're trying to create something to SELL. This is not your heartbreaking Great Sci-Fi epic that's going to catapult your name up there next to Asimov - in all likelihood Asimov will be torn down from the constellation of Sci-Fi luminaries next week for not being diverse-enough, and you don't get to choose what the market decides it likes this week. You only get to craft your story and do it well then let that sucker go free.

You're a word-salesman. And you'll be paid accordingly. No one owes you anything. Those that stick it out, learn a lot about themselves. Those that don't... well they apparently go online and make excuses for their lack of skill (which is due to their lack of discipline, which is why they're not professionals).

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121311Child labor isn't an evil at all. Kids working making money is fine.

True. Lots of kids enjoy those little jobs they get or even go out on their own seeking them. Delivering papers, mowing lawn, etc.

The problems creep in when you get things like parents essentially using their kid as a work animal rented out so they can collect the kits pay. This used to be, and unfortunately on rare occasions still is, a problem in acting.  Very different from just being the kids agent and money manager till they are old enough to handle it themselves.

But thats true of any venue and age isnt really a factor as anyone can end up in such situations somehow. Even in gaming. Some publishers have some pretty dirty contracts.

A couple years ago, I read an article by a parent who found a GREAT workaround for the lack of teen jobs. I wish I could remember where I found it. Essentially, the parents wanted their kids to understand the value of work and earning their own cash, BUT nobody was hiring teens. Atop of that, the parents didn't believe that minimum wage crap jobs were that useful as learning tools. I could argue for or against that, but here's their solution. The father told the kids they had to start their own business when they turned 13.

The kids were initially confused, but kid creativity kicked in swiftly. Their daughter sold custom gift baskets and personalized teen girl bracelets. Their son told his dad that he'd make money off playing video games. The father didn't believe it, but the son made cash by teaching adults how to play video games. Yeah, so these adults could compete with their own kids. The teen became a "video game tutor"! LOL.

Did the kids earn a "living wage" from their side-gigs? Maybe not. The article didn't go into their sales numbers.

Did the kids learn invaluable lessons from starting their own business? Hell yeah.

Quote from: tenbones;11213541) Create legislation that allows citizens to purchase insurance *across* state lines. This immediately puts all insurance companies in direct competition with one another.

2) Roll back legislation that prevents free-association plans to create pools for insurance companies to cater to. This will benefit small-businesses and individuals. These pools can negotiate in *bulk*. This will also allow people with chronic and pre-existing conditions to leverage their own significant numbers for their own benefit without dragging young healthy people through the wringer (as well as everyone else).

3) Emphasis on catastrophic healthcare insurance over insurance claims for everything.

4) Remove government/insurance company control over the Chargemaster billing. This is what dictates what the government will reimburse providers for using Medicaid - or the cost the insurance company will negotiate with the providers for reimbursement. It incentivizes providers to work fast and dirty, and churn through patients because those reimbursements aren't matching the rising costs of everything else - especially #5. This would allow healthcare providers to deal directly with their patients - this is especially important for those with low-income.

5) Tort reform to reduce costs on providers spending UNGODLY amounts of time, effort and money doing extra work (unnecessary lab tests, and procedures) JUST to justify themselves to avoid potential malpractice lawsuits. This also costs healthcare providers a tremendous amount of their own income and de-incentivises more and more people from being healthcare professionals.

6) Personal responsibility. Needs to be said. Live a healthy lifestyle. Be pro-active about your own health.


You'll see healthcare costs drops significantly. Some U.S. healthcare providers are ALREADY doing some of these things by setting up shop outside the country.

Edit: "Cheaper to provide" Given that America does *by far* the most medical research in the world... this would be addressed on a case by case basis. You trade off "cheaper to provide" - by living in Canada, Australia, NZ, and the UK, for instance with instant availability here. And the quality of healthcare for the really big diseases are the best in the world.

A lot of great information I didn't know. I would place #6 first, however.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120929Now that FFG has closed their RPG department, is there any RPG company left, other than WOTC, that has a staff of full time RPG writers?

Good question. Paizo?

All the others may actually just be owner-run ops plus hiring freelancers on a job-to-job basis.

Quote from: Melan;1120971Somehow, these are never the people who make something in (real or latent) demand, like Kevin Crawford, but the people who want to write mini-games based on deconstructing capitalism in the context of Lacan and Foucault. Their position on games that actually get played is that those should go away, because they are sexist, racist, and all kinds of problematic.

BTW, Pundit, did you base the example in your video on this ZineQuest pitch? Because there is an uncanny resemblance.

Nope. I just thought of the sort of thing they'd write, and went with it. I'm not surprised; like I've said, they're indistinguishable from parody these days.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1120979The tweet that started it all. The important thing to realize is that she isn't talking about writing game material like rules or adventures, she's talking about making D&D livestreams. That's why she's using terms like "creators" and is talking about D&D as a "medium".

https://twitter.com/dreamwisp/status/1219793872844292098

Yes, that's where it started but from there it went on to have other would be game-designers chiming in with the same nonsense.

Let's keep discussions about a living wage on the topic of RPGs, please, not the larger economy.

Harlan Ellison wrote a very good piece called "Pay the Writer" which he explained in an interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

I highly recommend watching it, but briefly, he talks about the importance of getting paid for ones work.  I have always thought that was 100% correct, I believe it fully.

But I don't believe someone "deserves" to get paid vast amounts for a niche work.