Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121277I would agree. And I also think that child labor is no longer a necessary evil in the modernized west.

Child labor isn't an evil at all. Kids working making money is fine.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1121262In an attempt to bring the thread a little back towards topic, it's certainly true that in previous decades, some people (if not many) did work for game publishers and make a living wage at it; the rise in complaint volume seems to indicate that this is much harder or rarer now. Do people think this is actually true, or is it just a mistaken perspective -- people used to the desktop revolution don't properly understand the effort and ROI risk of the process, or people more used to communicating with designers directly in real time don't realize exactly how few economically successful designers and companies there always have been?  If it is true, what's changed?

I'll put on my MBA hat here for a minute.  I used to think it would be awesome to support myself as a game designer.  My first semester of business strategy disabused me of that notion.  This stuff has been studied to death and there are several reasons why game design isn't profitable.  The main one (IMO) is low barriers to entry.  The easier it is to enter a market, the more people enter, increasing competition until eventually the profit gets competed down to zero. The only way to avoid this is to have something others can't easily copy.  It's hard to copy a brand like D&D or maybe White Wolf, brand meaning such things as name recognition, trust, consumer awareness, etc.  Copyright law prevents copying of IP like Star Wars without permission, so those games can keep a bit of a profit margin.  If you can build a community around your product you might be able to maintain some profit.  Without these things you are out of luck.  

With digital publishing, it's gotten easier and easier to enter the market.  It's really hard to make a profit doing something when there's a thousand guys out there with a product like yours, and many of them are willing to give it away for free.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121311Child labor isn't an evil at all. Kids working making money is fine.

I suppose using child soldiers isn't an evil act either. Kids working to protect their nation are fine too, right?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1121314I suppose using child soldiers isn't an evil act either. Kids working to protect their nation are fine too, right?

It's not the same thing. You know it's not. Stop.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1121314I suppose using child soldiers isn't an evil act either. Kids working to protect their nation are fine too, right?

Shrieking Banshee can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he meant things like "mow lawns/chop and sell wood/rake leaves/knitting sweaters to sell at the local fair/delivering newspapers/etc." (as many of us have done) rather than children working in sweatshops, machine shops and other dangerous and exploitative work. Child soldiers certainly falls under "exploitative" in my book. Delivering newspapers weekly for a fair wage does not and I don't see the two as equivalent; "child labor," despite the negative connotations associated with the term, does not necessarily entail exploitation or abuse.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1121324Shrieking Banshee can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he meant things like "mow lawns/chop and sell wood/rake leaves/knitting sweaters to sell at the local fair/delivering newspapers/etc." (as many of us have done) rather than children working in sweatshops, machine shops and other dangerous and exploitative work. Child soldiers certainly falls under "exploitative" in my book. Delivering newspapers weekly for a fair wage does not and I don't see the two as equivalent; "child labor," despite the negative connotations associated with the term, does not necessarily entail exploitation or abuse.

Pretty much. I mean nowadays a kid can't legally setup a lemonaid stand. Getting to work at a yoing age is in no way inherently bad.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1121324Shrieking Banshee can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he meant things like "mow lawns/chop and sell wood/rake leaves/knitting sweaters to sell at the local fair/delivering newspapers/etc." (as many of us have done) rather than children working in sweatshops, machine shops and other dangerous and exploitative work. Child soldiers certainly falls under "exploitative" in my book. Delivering newspapers weekly for a fair wage does not and I don't see the two as equivalent; "child labor," despite the negative connotations associated with the term, does not necessarily entail exploitation or abuse.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121325Pretty much. I mean nowadays a kid can't legally setup a lemonaid stand. Getting to work at a yoing age is in no way inherently bad.

I mowed yards, sold candy, fixed computers, worked in a firework stand, and did countless other things before I was old enough to get a job working as a cashier (16). Willingly. Because I wanted to buy RPGs and comic books. I guess that's just out of style now...

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121325Pretty much. I mean nowadays a kid can't legally setup a lemonaid stand. Getting to work at a yoing age is in no way inherently bad.

Which is a fucking tragedy because through tightening the leash on this type of activity, a vital cornerstone of development and education is being removed as an opportunity for young people. If I hadn't busted my ass for years running all those little "side gigs" as a kid I wouldn't have half the appreciation or respect for hard work, general understanding of the working world, personal success and pride for accomplishment that I do now. I honestly consider it more valuable to me as far as practical life experience than the majority of school, particularly early on.

Quote from: Brad;1121328I mowed yards, sold candy, fixed computers, worked in a firework stand, and did countless other things before I was old enough to get a job working as a cashier (16). Willingly. Because I wanted to buy RPGs and comic books. I guess that's just out of style now...

Same, I never would have owned any RPGs or many of the novels or magazines (Heavy Metal was my bag) as a kid had I not been willing to get my hands dirty. It's a damned shame. Oh well. I guess playing Fortnight on Twitch for donations is the new kid money-making thing now. I wonder how that will turn out over the long haul.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121311Child labor isn't an evil at all. Kids working making money is fine.

Context.

Quotethe other extreme is children getting maimed in factories and sweatshops with suicide nets where the workers put in 12 hours a day 6 days a week.

I will clarify, running a lemonade stand and mowing lawns is fine. I don't think working 12 hour shifts for 30 cents an hour in a dangerous factory is a very good idea for kids.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121336I will clarify, running a lemonade stand and mowing lawns is fine. I don't think working 12 hour shifts for 30 cents an hour in a dangerous factory is a very good idea for kids.

Which generally happens in locations where the alternative is working 16 hour shifts for 10 cents on a farm is the alternative.
It reminds me of the ObamaCare fiasco. It would be NICE for everybody to have life insurance, but its a luxury. You're not making their lives better by FORCING people to buy luxuries they cannot afford.

The world is a harsh and unforgiving place, and through lots of mangled limbs, some of its places have been made to be somewhat nicer through human effort. Our world is BUILT on mangled limbs, corpses and suffering.

Doesn't matter what a good or bad idea it is thats the TRUTH. I hate economic and political arguments that stem from "Well life should be fair". Because in some way it will always be unfair. Your just picking what you think should and shouldn't be fair.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121337Which generally happens in locations where the alternative is working 16 hour shifts for 10 cents on a farm is the alternative.

What locations are you talking about? Is this in America or Europe? Factories full of toddlers working metal lathes?

QuoteIt reminds me of the ObamaCare fiasco. It would be NICE for everybody to have life insurance, but its a luxury. You're not making their lives better by FORCING people to buy luxuries they cannot afford.

The world is a harsh and unforgiving place, and through lots of mangled limbs, some of its places have been made to be somewhat nicer through human effort. Our world is BUILT on mangled limbs, corpses and suffering.

Doesn't matter what a good or bad idea it is thats the TRUTH. I hate economic and political arguments that stem from "Well life should be fair". Because in some way it will always be unfair. Your just picking what you think should and shouldn't be fair.

Life isn't fair, but that's not an excuse to throw up our hands, toss all the laws away, and start eating each other in an orgy of survival of the fittest.

I was a beneficiary of Obamacare. I had a hernia I couldn't afford to get fixed. Went two years with my intestine just hanging out of my body. Nothing I could do about it, because the surgery was to expensive... It also limited the type of work I could do.

When Affordable Health care act was passed, I qualified for it. Went in, got my Hernia fixed. A year later I was able to go to work for the Department of Corrections and become a functional member of society who was completely self sufficient. I would not have been able to do that without the help I received.

Quote from: Orphan81;1121343I was a beneficiary of Obamacare. I had a hernia I couldn't afford to get fixed. Went two years with my intestine just hanging out of my body. Nothing I could do about it, because the surgery was to expensive... It also limited the type of work I could do.

When Affordable Health care act was passed, I qualified for it. Went in, got my Hernia fixed. A year later I was able to go to work for the Department of Corrections and become a functional member of society who was completely self sufficient. I would not have been able to do that without the help I received.

I couldn't afford Obamacare, and so I opted out, despite opting out being a contentious decision. (I never had to pay the "penalty tax")
I still don't have health insurance. I have other bills I choose to prioritize to get myself in a financial position where I could potentially afford a healthcare plan.

My brother has a medical condition (Chron's Disease, for the record) where Obamacare helped pay for his medications and procedures.

Obamacare is, IMO, a mixed bag. Beneficial but flawed. Mostly, I wonder if we're approaching the idea of paying for health care in an effective manner. Instead of shoveling money at the problem, how can we make health care cheaper to provide, not just cheaper for the recipient to pay for.

Coming from a country (NZ) where we have national healthcare for everyone, I can tell you that it is not 2020 cutting edge healthcare and on the otherhand we dont let people walk around with their intestines hanging out either.

But honestly paying for RPGs is a luxury compared to healthcare.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1121270As far as I know, yes way less people work full time as RPG writers. I point to three possible reasons.

1. There are a ton of RPGs and many of these RPGs will never "go out of date" or be unavailable.

2. RPG players don't need to go to brick and mortar stores which means RPGs companies don't need to stock them. The barrier to entry is low and the ability to buy what you want is high.

3. The appetite for endless amounts of books for the same game has dried up which means a full-time RPG writer needs to be making brilliant new games all the time.

Some thoughts on your points...

1) Agreed.
2) Agreed.
3) Disagree. In fact I think outside of D&D this is reversed. Non-D&D players *want* more books for their gamelines depending on if they're GM's and likely their age. At my age - I have a lot of disposable income so I will devour gamelines that I find useful. As for D&D - I suspect people WANT more books, but at scale, perhaps WotC isn't willing to put them out because of diminishing returns? Who knows. I stopped wondering about their business practices after 3.x

BUT - I don't think any of these are the direct reasons why way less people work as full-time RPG writers. The real reasons are as follows:

1) Most RPG companies are small affairs. It takes a lot of thought and work to develop and idea and bring it to market. The people willing to do that are few and far between.

2) The margins on RPG sales is tiny. Sure there are exceptions - but they're outliers. But it takes a lot of effort to have a day-job to finance the creation of a product and bring it to market. People that just "write" RPG's and demand to get paid a "living wage" whatever that is, without consideration of their skill or talent or the factors that demand higher pay for quality - is absurd on its face, and simply not practical generally speaking. Most RPG studio owner wear like half-a-dozen hats that might otherwise be nearly full-time jobs in other businesses. Paying a work-for-hire more than you're probably making doesn't seem worth hiring that person unless they're some luminary like Hite or Pondsmith.

3) The ability to get a work-for-hire job in RPG's is *not* hard. You have to simply prove you can write, and produce salable ideas. But people that can actually DO that... is a pretty small pool. As the graveyard of RPG games will attest for varying reasons beyond the obvious.

You can't squeeze water out of a rock. But you can stack rocks and make a dam. The question is how much effort are you willing to put into it?