Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 03:07:55 AM

Quote from: Scooter on September 30, 2023, 12:06:15 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 30, 2023, 11:03:09 AM
Likewise in D&D, damage and hit points do not work like real life wounds and real life tactics tend to fall apart. A 9th level fighter can literally stand there in street clothes and have another warrior stab him in the chest with a sword and not die. Ever. It's not possible to kill a 9th level fighter with a single sword blow.

Perhaps that is true in pseudo D&D (those games published by WotC). But in AD&D magically sleeping or just bound opponents of any level  may be automatically slain.  No hacking necessary.  Thus anyone who wanted to allow attacks without any hint of defending can also be slain by a "stab him in the chest with a sword ."

That's a fine hair to split.

Nope, it is a RULE. No fine hair at all if one reads and understands it.

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 08:36:00 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 03:07:55 AM

Quote from: Scooter on September 30, 2023, 12:06:15 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 30, 2023, 11:03:09 AM
Likewise in D&D, damage and hit points do not work like real life wounds and real life tactics tend to fall apart. A 9th level fighter can literally stand there in street clothes and have another warrior stab him in the chest with a sword and not die. Ever. It's not possible to kill a 9th level fighter with a single sword blow.

Perhaps that is true in pseudo D&D (those games published by WotC). But in AD&D magically sleeping or just bound opponents of any level  may be automatically slain.  No hacking necessary.  Thus anyone who wanted to allow attacks without any hint of defending can also be slain by a "stab him in the chest with a sword ."

That's a fine hair to split.

Nope, it is a RULE. No fine hair at all if one reads and understands it.

My fighter in the example was not sleeping or bound. Magically or non-magically. He's just standing there.
Reviewing the RULE you bring up, it specifies magical sleep and hold.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:49:02 AM
My fighter in the example was not sleeping or bound. Magically or non-magically. He's just standing there.
Reviewing the RULE you bring up, it specifies magical sleep and hold.

If your fighter continues to stand there without defending then ANYONE can walk up and cut his throat and he is DEAD.  Same as not being able to defend from being bound.  Insta kill.

My response to the original post:

I'm DMimg an AD&D Greyhawk game right now (the current players now have PCs ranging from 1st to 3rd level) for reference.

1) Some warriors: monks, fighters, rangers, whatever (I have one of each in my game) will be more like "Batman" or "Captain America".  Not superstrong, but cunning and agile.  They will "find the weak point" in the monster's armor and have been training and fighting for years, learning esoteric techniques to fight and kill monsters (yes, I enforce the training rules).

2) Others likely WILL have superstrength due to items or boosts.  Strength spell has already become a thing in my game, and by the time they are fighting dragons I'm sure at least one or two of the warriors will be rocking a Girdle of Giant Strength or Gauntlets of Ogre Power, or a Strength spell at the very least.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on September 29, 2023, 07:23:07 PM
Do you know what humans did when they wanted to hunt megafauna (rhinos, lions, tigers, elephants, etc)?

Did they:

1. Fight it upfront in a head-on battle
2. Lay traps, bleed it out, generally avoid direct conflict where possible

No 2. is how humans have hunted elephants, mammoths, and other megafauna during our time on Earth. No 1. is suicide and anyone who did it would soon perish. An elephant would kill medieval knights, let alone Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.

You COMPLETELY lack an education in this area:

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 04:04:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:49:02 AM
My fighter in the example was not sleeping or bound. Magically or non-magically. He's just standing there.
Reviewing the RULE you bring up, it specifies magical sleep and hold.

If your fighter continues to stand there without defending then ANYONE can walk up and cut his throat and he is DEAD.  Same as not being able to defend from being bound.  Insta kill.

I agree with your house ruling. I'm afraid it's not part of the system. And anyway this is all sidestepping the fact that hit points and damage in D&D is far too abstract to pin it down for arguments about "realism".

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 05:40:14 PM


I agree with your house ruling. I'm afraid it's not part of the system. And anyway this is all sidestepping the fact that hit points and damage in D&D is far too abstract to pin it down for arguments about "realism".

It isn't a house rule. You see, Gary believed that a GM would be there to explain the obvious to some players.  He didn't put in rules for suicide for high level PCs either because none are needed beyond what I showed here.   If you won't or can't defend you die.  It's in the rules as WRITTEN.

Hit points as described in RAW for D&D are not explainable by "realism" as they are based on unreal laws and forces.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 05:40:14 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 04:04:02 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:49:02 AM
My fighter in the example was not sleeping or bound. Magically or non-magically. He's just standing there.
Reviewing the RULE you bring up, it specifies magical sleep and hold.

If your fighter continues to stand there without defending then ANYONE can walk up and cut his throat and he is DEAD.  Same as not being able to defend from being bound.  Insta kill.

I agree with your house ruling.

I was about to commend you for impling Scooter would actually accept that this was just his house rule when I came back to this thread to find the gem that followed. Guy won't even accept these are just his highly opinionated takes on what the rules actually mean. In his mind this is just how Saint Gary intended it as he walked down from Mt. Greyhawk with the stone tablets in his hands.

Armor Class is based on the assumption of attempted survival defensive evasion (plus physical barriers, both worn & stationary cover, etc.). If for some reason you are not attempting to survive... bound by some non-physical conception... Martyrdom is a thing, as is phrases 'bound by honor', let alone terms about mental health states like crippling depression and suicidal ideation.

Now the question becomes how much of an autonomic ("not thinking") response is defensive evasion. And then the game can have Saves come in at this point, if the GM & player so agree. That'd be a judgment call, if you want to take it so far. But plenty of people died in reality without uncontrollable flinching due to the above non-physical concepts that I don't see the above bolded that hard of a sell. 

However this isn't really the most fruitful of discussion tracks about humans versus megafauna. So I leave you all to continue the fight in the Thunderdome.  Best of luck!

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 04:30:33 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on September 29, 2023, 07:23:07 PM
Do you know what humans did when they wanted to hunt megafauna (rhinos, lions, tigers, elephants, etc)?

Did they:

1. Fight it upfront in a head-on battle
2. Lay traps, bleed it out, generally avoid direct conflict where possible

No 2. is how humans have hunted elephants, mammoths, and other megafauna during our time on Earth. No 1. is suicide and anyone who did it would soon perish. An elephant would kill medieval knights, let alone Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.

You COMPLETELY lack an education in this area:

Geez!  Those are quite successful upfront battles. Distance is an Armor Class all its own, and Numbers is another form of Action Economy.

Anyway last I read Pleistoscene megafauna had a 98% collapse since 100,000 years ago, roughly around the time a certain homo sapien sapien appeared on the scene... But correlation is not causation, so we still don't truly know what happened to all those tasty, tasty animals. Maybe they died of broken hearts, or caltrops?

Quote from: MeganovaStella on September 29, 2023, 09:54:47 PM
So, in other words, you agree with me that DND mid-to-high level martials are superhuman.

No, they're D&D characters.

QuoteThe problem I have is that this superhuman ability applies to one narrow field- taking and receiving damage- and no others. A monk with the leg strength to do anything to an elephant with a kick could also kick right through walls, wooden or even stone, or leap over 50 foot walls in one go.

"But dad, why can't the queen move in an L-shape like the knight, does?"
"Because these are the rules of chess, son."
My son came to understand this principle at 5 years old. You're still struggling with it at... what are you? 15?

QuoteUsing a specific build in a specific edition (5th edition) -

"Build". God help us. Stop right there. We've heard enough.

Quote from: Trond on September 30, 2023, 09:31:58 AM
I always felt that most of the early RPGs started off with too weak characters.

There's an old survival saying, "there's no bad weather, only bad clothing." In other words, so long as you've prepared and planned right, you should be good. Similarly, there are no weak characters, only weak players.

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 06:05:03 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 05:40:14 PM


I agree with your house ruling. I'm afraid it's not part of the system. And anyway this is all sidestepping the fact that hit points and damage in D&D is far too abstract to pin it down for arguments about "realism".

It isn't a house rule. You see, Gary believed that a GM would be there to explain the obvious to some players.  He didn't put in rules for suicide for high level PCs either because none are needed beyond what I showed here.   If you won't or can't defend you die.  It's in the rules as WRITTEN.

Hit points as described in RAW for D&D are not explainable by "realism" as they are based on unreal laws and forces.

So the unwritten rules are the rules as written? Do I need to point out how silly that is?

Anywho, even by your unwritten, written rule, during a surpirse round, any target hit should instantly die, since they are unable to defend, and yet that's not how the system works.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:54:05 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 06:05:03 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 05:40:14 PM


I agree with your house ruling. I'm afraid it's not part of the system. And anyway this is all sidestepping the fact that hit points and damage in D&D is far too abstract to pin it down for arguments about "realism".

It isn't a house rule. You see, Gary believed that a GM would be there to explain the obvious to some players.  He didn't put in rules for suicide for high level PCs either because none are needed beyond what I showed here.   If you won't or can't defend you die.  It's in the rules as WRITTEN.

Hit points as described in RAW for D&D are not explainable by "realism" as they are based on unreal laws and forces.

So the unwritten rules are the rules as written?

Rent an IQ.  The rule is if no defense is made you die.  WTF is hard to understand about that?  Are you retarded?

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 09:12:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:54:05 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 06:05:03 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 05:40:14 PM


I agree with your house ruling. I'm afraid it's not part of the system. And anyway this is all sidestepping the fact that hit points and damage in D&D is far too abstract to pin it down for arguments about "realism".

It isn't a house rule. You see, Gary believed that a GM would be there to explain the obvious to some players.  He didn't put in rules for suicide for high level PCs either because none are needed beyond what I showed here.   If you won't or can't defend you die.  It's in the rules as WRITTEN.

Hit points as described in RAW for D&D are not explainable by "realism" as they are based on unreal laws and forces.

So the unwritten rules are the rules as written?

Rent an IQ.  The rule is if no defense is made you die.  WTF is hard to understand about that?  Are you retarded?

So you agree that anyone who gets hit during the surprise round should be ganked? That's an interesting take.

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 09:12:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:54:05 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 06:05:03 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 05:40:14 PM


I agree with your house ruling. I'm afraid it's not part of the system. And anyway this is all sidestepping the fact that hit points and damage in D&D is far too abstract to pin it down for arguments about "realism".

It isn't a house rule. You see, Gary believed that a GM would be there to explain the obvious to some players.  He didn't put in rules for suicide for high level PCs either because none are needed beyond what I showed here.   If you won't or can't defend you die.  It's in the rules as WRITTEN.

Hit points as described in RAW for D&D are not explainable by "realism" as they are based on unreal laws and forces.

So the unwritten rules are the rules as written?

Rent an IQ.  The rule is if no defense is made you die.  WTF is hard to understand about that?  Are you retarded?

You have yet to point out this rule. I showed how your bound/sleep rule in the book specified magical hold and sleep.
I countered with an example in the rules where someone unable to defend against an attack is not instantly killed without an attack and damage roll.