Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 02, 2023, 07:16:15 AM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 09:12:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:54:05 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 06:05:03 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 05:40:14 PM


I agree with your house ruling. I'm afraid it's not part of the system. And anyway this is all sidestepping the fact that hit points and damage in D&D is far too abstract to pin it down for arguments about "realism".

It isn't a house rule. You see, Gary believed that a GM would be there to explain the obvious to some players.  He didn't put in rules for suicide for high level PCs either because none are needed beyond what I showed here.   If you won't or can't defend you die.  It's in the rules as WRITTEN.

Hit points as described in RAW for D&D are not explainable by "realism" as they are based on unreal laws and forces.

So the unwritten rules are the rules as written?

Rent an IQ.  The rule is if no defense is made you die.  WTF is hard to understand about that?  Are you retarded?

You have yet to point out this rule.

Right, because you don't know the game rules.

Quote from: Scooter on October 02, 2023, 08:26:56 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 02, 2023, 07:16:15 AM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 09:12:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:54:05 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 06:05:03 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 05:40:14 PM


I agree with your house ruling. I'm afraid it's not part of the system. And anyway this is all sidestepping the fact that hit points and damage in D&D is far too abstract to pin it down for arguments about "realism".

It isn't a house rule. You see, Gary believed that a GM would be there to explain the obvious to some players.  He didn't put in rules for suicide for high level PCs either because none are needed beyond what I showed here.   If you won't or can't defend you die.  It's in the rules as WRITTEN.

Hit points as described in RAW for D&D are not explainable by "realism" as they are based on unreal laws and forces.

So the unwritten rules are the rules as written?

Rent an IQ.  The rule is if no defense is made you die.  WTF is hard to understand about that?  Are you retarded?

You have yet to point out this rule.

Right, because you don't know the game rules.

Why do you want surprised characters to get insta killed so badly? 

Quote from: Scooter on October 02, 2023, 08:26:56 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 02, 2023, 07:16:15 AM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 09:12:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:54:05 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 01, 2023, 06:05:03 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 05:40:14 PM


I agree with your house ruling. I'm afraid it's not part of the system. And anyway this is all sidestepping the fact that hit points and damage in D&D is far too abstract to pin it down for arguments about "realism".

It isn't a house rule. You see, Gary believed that a GM would be there to explain the obvious to some players.  He didn't put in rules for suicide for high level PCs either because none are needed beyond what I showed here.   If you won't or can't defend you die.  It's in the rules as WRITTEN.

Hit points as described in RAW for D&D are not explainable by "realism" as they are based on unreal laws and forces.

So the unwritten rules are the rules as written?

Rent an IQ.  The rule is if no defense is made you die.  WTF is hard to understand about that?  Are you retarded?

You have yet to point out this rule.

Right, because you don't know the game rules.

I'm very familar with the AD&D rules, and have had the books handy for reference while we've had this discussion.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 01, 2023, 08:39:16 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on September 29, 2023, 09:54:47 PM
So, in other words, you agree with me that DND mid-to-high level martials are superhuman.

No, they're D&D characters.

QuoteThe problem I have is that this superhuman ability applies to one narrow field- taking and receiving damage- and no others. A monk with the leg strength to do anything to an elephant with a kick could also kick right through walls, wooden or even stone, or leap over 50 foot walls in one go.

"But dad, why can't the queen move in an L-shape like the knight, does?"
"Because these are the rules of chess, son."
My son came to understand this principle at 5 years old. You're still struggling with it at... what are you? 15?

QuoteUsing a specific build in a specific edition (5th edition) -

"Build". God help us. Stop right there. We've heard enough.

Quote from: Trond on September 30, 2023, 09:31:58 AM
I always felt that most of the early RPGs started off with too weak characters.

There's an old survival saying, "there's no bad weather, only bad clothing." In other words, so long as you've prepared and planned right, you should be good. Similarly, there are no weak characters, only weak players.

Oh yeah, we dealt with it. We generally preferred other systems or starting at a higher level though (not only talking D&D here).

Besides, answering questions like "why is D&D wonky?" with "because it's D&D!" or "them's the rules!" is circular. A better dismissive answer IMO is "works for us, we had fun with it".

Quote from: Trond on October 03, 2023, 09:26:02 AM
Besides, answering questions like "why is D&D wonky?" with "because it's D&D!" or "them's the rules!" is circular. A better dismissive answer IMO is "works for us, we had fun with it".

Or, it isn't wonky, you are.  The best, most accurate answer.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on September 29, 2023, 08:01:52 PMAnd I know that martials aren't normal humans. The problem is that they are superhuman in one field only - killing huge monsters. They cannot, say, use the same strength that their main sthick needs in order to pick up a rock and send it flying through a row of 300 soldiers. Or leap 200 meters in the air to knock down an airship. Or break down the gates of a castle. Pretty standard mythology stuff. Lancelot, for instance, could easily pick up a boulder that 10 men struggled to even move off the ground.

This sort of thing gets my craw exactly, but most people don't care is the basic answer. And this is 95% a D&D problem, and specifically because of HP bloat.

D&D Combat and D&D characters don't emulate any sort of specific archetype or character outside of itself. They are weird superhumans.

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 01, 2023, 07:24:45 PM
Armor Class is based on the assumption of attempted survival defensive evasion (plus physical barriers, both worn & stationary cover, etc.). If for some reason you are not attempting to survive... bound by some non-physical conception... Martyrdom is a thing, as is phrases 'bound by honor', let alone terms about mental health states like crippling depression and suicidal ideation.

You're making a point just about defense, but I don't think this holds up for armor class and hit points in general. For example, a high-level fighter is dropped by a creature from 100 feet in the air. Or the fighter holds his ground against a charging elephant to protect the wizard behind him.

By their nature, D&D hit points make skillful dodging the same as being ridiculously tough, which often has counterintuitive results.

I think the simple answer is that the D&D rules go past being cinematic and into something more like epic poetry. If one wants a game to be more grounded and realistic, then one should change the rules.

For example, I had a giant shark (a polymorphed PC) thrashing about in a cave biting a vampire in my D&D game on Sunday, and it was great fun. I kept a thin veneer of there being a reality - describing how the shark was trying to thrash up from the salt pool it was in. But I don't think the results were at all realistic.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2023, 12:20:50 PM


D&D Combat and D&D characters don't emulate any sort of specific archetype or character outside of itself. They are weird superhumans.

And it is the most popular RPG in history

Quote from: jhkim on October 03, 2023, 01:16:22 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 01, 2023, 07:24:45 PM
Armor Class is based on the assumption of attempted survival defensive evasion (plus physical barriers, both worn & stationary cover, etc.). If for some reason you are not attempting to survive... bound by some non-physical conception... Martyrdom is a thing, as is phrases 'bound by honor', let alone terms about mental health states like crippling depression and suicidal ideation.

You're making a point just about defense, but I don't think this holds up for armor class and hit points in general. For example, a high-level fighter is dropped by a creature from 100 feet in the air. Or the fighter holds his ground against a charging elephant to protect the wizard behind him.

By their nature, D&D hit points make skillful dodging the same as being ridiculously tough, which often has counterintuitive results.

I think the simple answer is that the D&D rules go past being cinematic and into something more like epic poetry. If one wants a game to be more grounded and realistic, then one should change the rules.

For example, I had a giant shark (a polymorphed PC) thrashing about in a cave biting a vampire in my D&D game on Sunday, and it was great fun. I kept a thin veneer of there being a reality - describing how the shark was trying to thrash up from the salt pool it was in. But I don't think the results were at all realistic.

Greetings!

Hey, Jhkim!

GIANT SHARKS ARE AWESOME!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Scooter on October 03, 2023, 01:29:24 PMAnd it is the most popular RPG in history

Popularity is not indicative of good, and it isn't really evidence of anything outside of itself. It also has a giant toy conglomerate behind it for marketing purposes that's also linked to a gambling racket.

Call it meat points, or dodge points, or luck points or hit points. The D&D style of combat emulation exists largely for itself without emulating anything.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2023, 01:46:00 PM

Popularity is not indicative of good,

And bitching about the most popular RPG in history doesn't means it is NOT awesome.

Quote from: jhkim on October 03, 2023, 01:16:22 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 01, 2023, 07:24:45 PM
Armor Class is based on the assumption of attempted survival defensive evasion (plus physical barriers, both worn & stationary cover, etc.). If for some reason you are not attempting to survive... bound by some non-physical conception... Martyrdom is a thing, as is phrases 'bound by honor', let alone terms about mental health states like crippling depression and suicidal ideation.

You're making a point just about defense, but I don't think this holds up for armor class and hit points in general. For example, a high-level fighter is dropped by a creature from 100 feet in the air. Or the fighter holds his ground against a charging elephant to protect the wizard behind him.

By their nature, D&D hit points make skillful dodging the same as being ridiculously tough, which often has counterintuitive results.

I think the simple answer is that the D&D rules go past being cinematic and into something more like epic poetry. If one wants a game to be more grounded and realistic, then one should change the rules.

For example, I had a giant shark (a polymorphed PC) thrashing about in a cave biting a vampire in my D&D game on Sunday, and it was great fun. I kept a thin veneer of there being a reality - describing how the shark was trying to thrash up from the salt pool it was in. But I don't think the results were at all realistic.

Realism understood as sticking to the real world reality is vastly overrated in Sci-Fi/Fantasy games.

Realism understood as sticking to the game world reality on the other hand is something to strive for.

When I play/run D&D I'm not trying to simmulate the real world, I'm trying to "live"/create a "living world" in the game world.

Yes, high level PCs ARE superhuman, which is why at certain levels you're out there cavorting on other planes or even becoming immortals/gods.

Quote from: Scooter on October 03, 2023, 02:42:05 PMAnd bitching about the most popular RPG in history doesn't means it is NOT awesome.

4e is pretty good yeh.

Anyway I see your not secure enough to like something without constant validation.

Quote from: Scooter on October 03, 2023, 02:42:05 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2023, 01:46:00 PM

Popularity is not indicative of good,

And bitching about the most popular RPG in history doesn't means it is NOT awesome.

This post brought to you by the guy bitching about the most popular edition of D&D (5e) a couple of posts ago, and multiple times across this thread or elsewhere in their recent posting history IIRC.

Why won't you accept that D&D 5e is the most awesome RPG in history?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2023, 12:20:50 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on September 29, 2023, 08:01:52 PMAnd I know that martials aren't normal humans. The problem is that they are superhuman in one field only - killing huge monsters. They cannot, say, use the same strength that their main sthick needs in order to pick up a rock and send it flying through a row of 300 soldiers. Or leap 200 meters in the air to knock down an airship. Or break down the gates of a castle. Pretty standard mythology stuff. Lancelot, for instance, could easily pick up a boulder that 10 men struggled to even move off the ground.

This sort of thing gets my craw exactly, but most people don't care is the basic answer. And this is 95% a D&D problem, and specifically because of HP bloat.

D&D Combat and D&D characters don't emulate any sort of specific archetype or character outside of itself. They are weird superhumans.

No matter how much the OStaRd defends D&D, the fact of the matter is that when pressed on the issue almost everyone admits that 1) D&D has HP bloat at higher levels (even in earlier editions), and 2) HP at starting levels are too limited, to the point where a RAT can kill a normal peasant with a single bite--leading many to start their campaigns at level 3. Which pretty much proves that there's at least some consensus that D&D HP are out of whack.

The current setup is just kept out of inertia because HD are a sacred cow that can't be killed despite the fact that everyone knows they don't work. And neither does getting a HP bonus from CON every level. Characters should just get something like CON +(Average HD x3) at level 1. Then maybe 1 or 2 HP per level after that.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2023, 03:23:46 PM
4e is pretty good yeh.

Anyway I see your not secure enough to like something without constant validation.

4e was a good table top fantasy war game.  Since you don't know me at all the 2nd comment is just psychotic.  Get help