Quote from: SHARK on October 06, 2023, 04:38:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 06, 2023, 02:29:25 PM
Sure. NPCs should make mistakes just like PCs make mistakes. I've seen plenty of PC groups use sub-optimal tactics, and that's a good thing.

My point is just that the concept of an intelligent opponent acting tactically shouldn't be seen as "meta" or video-gamey.

By the way, I have not suggested that "Intelligent Opponents acting tactically" is a Meta Video-Game thing. I have suggested that a traditional, heroic, super-powerful and majestically arrogant creature like a DRAGON, would be more likely to simply breathe fire and chomp their opponents in a terrifying slaughter and rage. Flying away, staying at a distance, using crazy spells--as a tactical suite--is more akin to a boss-fight encounter in a video game, and not an epic encounter with a dragon from myth. Embracing fancy tactics, weird spells, staying out of range--all that gets precisely to the other-worldly and mythic psychology of the Dragon.

Embracing such a tactical suite suggests FEAR. FEAR OF BEING DEFEATED AND KILLED BY FUCKING HUMANS.

Use of tactics doesn't require fear. Use of skill and tactics can be a show of superiority, particularly for a creature that prides itself on its intelligence. By parallel, an arrogant master swordsman may show off his technique rather than just relying on brute force, even if he thinks he could win just by brute force.

A cruelly evil dragon that prides itself on its intelligence might carefully pick off its attackers one by one, giving them no chance to fight back, just to demonstrate how it is smarter than them as well as stronger.

Quote from: jhkim on October 07, 2023, 03:00:29 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 06, 2023, 04:38:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 06, 2023, 02:29:25 PM
Sure. NPCs should make mistakes just like PCs make mistakes. I've seen plenty of PC groups use sub-optimal tactics, and that's a good thing.

My point is just that the concept of an intelligent opponent acting tactically shouldn't be seen as "meta" or video-gamey.

By the way, I have not suggested that "Intelligent Opponents acting tactically" is a Meta Video-Game thing. I have suggested that a traditional, heroic, super-powerful and majestically arrogant creature like a DRAGON, would be more likely to simply breathe fire and chomp their opponents in a terrifying slaughter and rage. Flying away, staying at a distance, using crazy spells--as a tactical suite--is more akin to a boss-fight encounter in a video game, and not an epic encounter with a dragon from myth. Embracing fancy tactics, weird spells, staying out of range--all that gets precisely to the other-worldly and mythic psychology of the Dragon.

Embracing such a tactical suite suggests FEAR. FEAR OF BEING DEFEATED AND KILLED BY FUCKING HUMANS.

Use of tactics doesn't require fear. Use of skill and tactics can be a show of superiority, particularly for a creature that prides itself on its intelligence. By parallel, an arrogant master swordsman may show off his technique rather than just relying on brute force, even if he thinks he could win just by brute force.

A cruelly evil dragon that prides itself on its intelligence might carefully pick off its attackers one by one, giving them no chance to fight back, just to demonstrate how it is smarter than them as well as stronger.

Okay so you agree with us then: Role play over optimal tactics.

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 08, 2023, 10:20:29 AM

Quote from: jhkim on October 07, 2023, 03:00:29 AM
A cruelly evil dragon that prides itself on its intelligence might carefully pick off its attackers one by one, giving them no chance to fight back, just to demonstrate how it is smarter than them as well as stronger.

Okay so you agree with us then: Role play over optimal tactics.

Mmm, picking off opponents one by one with no chance to fight back IS optimum tactics.  Role play and tactics are not mutually exclusive. 

Quote from: Mishihari on October 06, 2023, 01:21:20 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 05, 2023, 07:37:29 PM
Which D&D fighter is going to walk up to a dragon and start wailing on it with a broadsword? One with a pushover GM, that's who. Because a fair GM will have that fighter knocked prone on the first hit or flung across the map landing with Xd6 fall damage.

It's actually worse than that.  In most circumstances a dragon that's not really dumb will fly, circle around, then breath weapon the melee guys repeatedly while staying out of reach of weapons.

Resist Energy and Protection From Energy say hi

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 09, 2023, 09:23:53 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 06, 2023, 01:21:20 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 05, 2023, 07:37:29 PM
Which D&D fighter is going to walk up to a dragon and start wailing on it with a broadsword? One with a pushover GM, that's who. Because a fair GM will have that fighter knocked prone on the first hit or flung across the map landing with Xd6 fall damage.

It's actually worse than that.  In most circumstances a dragon that's not really dumb will fly, circle around, then breath weapon the melee guys repeatedly while staying out of reach of weapons.

Resist Energy and Protection From Energy say hi

Which of the fighter's class features allow him to cast these spells?

Quote from: Domina on October 14, 2023, 10:55:28 AM

Quote
Resist Energy and Protection From Energy say hi

Which of the fighter's class features allow him to cast these spells?

Why wouldn't a high level fighter have magic items like armour of fire resistance?

Quote from: Domina on October 14, 2023, 10:55:28 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 09, 2023, 09:23:53 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 06, 2023, 01:21:20 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 05, 2023, 07:37:29 PM
Which D&D fighter is going to walk up to a dragon and start wailing on it with a broadsword? One with a pushover GM, that's who. Because a fair GM will have that fighter knocked prone on the first hit or flung across the map landing with Xd6 fall damage.

It's actually worse than that.  In most circumstances a dragon that's not really dumb will fly, circle around, then breath weapon the melee guys repeatedly while staying out of reach of weapons.

Resist Energy and Protection From Energy say hi

Which of the fighter's class features allow him to cast these spells?

Multiclass, potions, wands (if his UMD is high enough or again, multiclass)... and we're assuming it's JUST the fighter taking him on.

There is a reason the dragon's refrain should be 'fight smarter, not harder'.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 16, 2023, 10:29:04 AM
Multiclass, potions, wands (if his UMD is high enough or again, multiclass)... and we're assuming it's JUST the fighter taking him on.

There is a reason the dragon's refrain should be 'fight smarter, not harder'.

I always remember that comment from Gandalf when answering why use a burglar.  He said because there were no heroes around area to be employed. So, in Middle Earth fighters of high enough skill were known to be able to take on the likes of Smaug.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 16, 2023, 10:29:04 AM

Quote from: Domina on October 14, 2023, 10:55:28 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 09, 2023, 09:23:53 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 06, 2023, 01:21:20 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 05, 2023, 07:37:29 PM
Which D&D fighter is going to walk up to a dragon and start wailing on it with a broadsword? One with a pushover GM, that's who. Because a fair GM will have that fighter knocked prone on the first hit or flung across the map landing with Xd6 fall damage.

It's actually worse than that.  In most circumstances a dragon that's not really dumb will fly, circle around, then breath weapon the melee guys repeatedly while staying out of reach of weapons.

Resist Energy and Protection From Energy say hi

Which of the fighter's class features allow him to cast these spells?

Multiclass, potions, wands (if his UMD is high enough or again, multiclass)... and we're assuming it's JUST the fighter taking him on.

There is a reason the dragon's refrain should be 'fight smarter, not harder'.

So the fighter's best options come from things not related to being a fighter? Lmao. The absolute state of D&D

Quote from: Domina on October 17, 2023, 05:36:41 PM

So the fighter's best options come from things not related to being a fighter? Lmao. The absolute state of D&D
[/quote]

Wrong moron.  Magic Weapons and armor are 100% part of a fighters equipment at higher level.  Not get that brainectomy reversed

Quote from: Scooter on October 17, 2023, 05:48:29 PM

Quote from: Domina on October 17, 2023, 05:36:41 PM

So the fighter's best options come from things not related to being a fighter? Lmao. The absolute state of D&D

Wrong moron.  Magic Weapons and armor are 100% part of a fighters equipment at higher level.  Not get that brainectomy reversed
[/quote]

ah yes, a glowing magical sword can make the fighter strike with a thousand times more joules than he could, and resist a thousand times more joules of force than he could normally, hmm yes, ignore how this is not in any way replicated in any mythology

I realized what I recently said sounds stupid. However my point still stands that DND characters are Schrodinger superhumans.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 17, 2023, 10:14:50 PM
I realized what I recently said sounds stupid. However my point still stands that DND characters are Schrodinger superhumans.

Not really.

Here's the crux of the problem. D&D has a tradition of play however you want.

- Some DM's might be going for "realism"--others might be going for a more "mythical" vibe.
- Of those going for realism, some might believe human weapons can harm megafauna. Others might not.
- Some DMs don't care about any of these goofy technicalities. Others do.
- And finally, some DMs interpret the combat system as being blow for blow. Others interpret it as abstract goo where there's dancing and prancing assumed to be going on, and so even if you've got minis on the table with the PC literally standing toe-to-toe fighting the Megafauna, that might not be what's actually happening in the imaginary space.

In order for the problem you're talking about to even exist AT ALL, you have to side with realism, have to hold your particular view of what is "realistic", care enough about any of this shit, and interpret combat in the way that is least compatible with your style and approach. Out of 4 binary switches that yield 16 broad combinatoric categories of gamers, only 1 out of the 16 has the problem you cite, and for some reason you've carefully chosen your assumptions to adhere to that 1.

Whatever melts your butter, I do believe the adage that if you're not having fun, you're playing wrong. And so if you insist on the one approach that's presenting you problems, I have no problem stating as an objectively true statement that you are just plain playing wrong. And you can't lay that blame on the game system. Not when there are 15 ways to play right. It's up for you to decide which of those four switches you need to flip. But you either need to flip one, or just admit you're more interesting in complaining than you are in playing any game.

Quote from: Lunamancer on October 17, 2023, 11:18:04 PM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 17, 2023, 10:14:50 PM
I realized what I recently said sounds stupid. However my point still stands that DND characters are Schrodinger superhumans.

Not really.

Here's the crux of the problem. D&D has a tradition of play however you want.

- Some DM's might be going for "realism"--others might be going for a more "mythical" vibe.
- Of those going for realism, some might believe human weapons can harm megafauna. Others might not.
- Some DMs don't care about any of these goofy technicalities. Others do.
- And finally, some DMs interpret the combat system as being blow for blow. Others interpret it as abstract goo where there's dancing and prancing assumed to be going on, and so even if you've got minis on the table with the PC literally standing toe-to-toe fighting the Megafauna, that might not be what's actually happening in the imaginary space.

In order for the problem you're talking about to even exist AT ALL, you have to side with realism, have to hold your particular view of what is "realistic", care enough about any of this shit, and interpret combat in the way that is least compatible with your style and approach. Out of 4 binary switches that yield 16 broad combinatoric categories of gamers, only 1 out of the 16 has the problem you cite, and for some reason you've carefully chosen your assumptions to adhere to that 1.

Whatever melts your butter, I do believe the adage that if you're not having fun, you're playing wrong. And so if you insist on the one approach that's presenting you problems, I have no problem stating as an objectively true statement that you are just plain playing wrong. And you can't lay that blame on the game system. Not when there are 15 ways to play right. It's up for you to decide which of those four switches you need to flip. But you either need to flip one, or just admit you're more interesting in complaining than you are in playing any game.

you know what, maybe I am working myself over nothing. thanks.

Quote from: MeganovaStella on October 17, 2023, 09:52:15 PM

Quote from: Scooter on October 17, 2023, 05:48:29 PM

Quote from: Domina on October 17, 2023, 05:36:41 PM


So the fighter's best options come from things not related to being a fighter? Lmao. The absolute state of D&D

Wrong moron.  Magic Weapons and armor are 100% part of a fighters equipment at higher level.  Not get that brainectomy reversed

ah yes, a glowing magical sword can make the fighter strike with a thousand times more joules than he could, and resist a thousand times more joules of force than he could normally, hmm yes, ignore how this is not in any way replicated in any mythology

Yes, I'm sure Durandal was a perfectly normal sword. And the skin of the Nemean Lion was just a pelt.