TheRPGSite

We just got the AUGUST 2007 issue of COMICS & GAMES RETAILER magazine at the store this past week. On page 8 they list the TOP-SELLING GAMES for MAY 2007...Here is the list :


1:Dungeons & Dragons Wizards of the Coast  27.9 27.9  100%
2:World of Darkness   White Wolf     6.8   8.7  53%
3:GURPS   Steve Jackson       1.8       2.3       22%
4:Iron Kingdoms  Privateer Press   1.8   1.8   14%
5:Castles & Crusades   Troll Lord   1.2   1.6   35%

6:  Rifts      Palladium      1.2   1.6   25%
7:Warhammer FRP   Black Industries   1.1  1.5   22%
8:Shadowrun   Fantasy Productions   1.0   1.3   20%
9:d20 Modern   Wizartds of the Coast   1.0   1.0   8%
10: Star Wars d20   Wizards of the Coast  0.8  0.8  9%

11: BESM 3rd Ed   White Wolf  0.7   0.7   12%
12: d20 Misc.   Paizo   0.7   0.7   10%
13: Serenity   MWP   0.7   0.7   9%
14: World of Warcraft   White Wolf   0.7   0.7   9%
15: Dungeon Crawl Classics   Goodman Games  0.6   0.7   24%

16:  Hero System 5th Edition   Hero   0.6   0.6   12%
17:  Legend of the Five Rings   Alderac   0.6   0.6   8%
18:  Savage Worlds   Pinnacle   0.4   0.4   10%
19:   Exalted   White Wolf   0.3   0.4   24%
20:   FUDGE   Grey Ghost   0.3   0.3   12%

....and that was BEFORE the release of SAGA edition STAR WARS d20.

- Ed C.

Interesting, do they update these figures on a monthly basis? I'd be more interested in looking at buying trends over a year or two, as one popular release can make a huge difference, particularly for those companies that regularly populate the lower rankings.

Wow, IK is that high? Only the RPG or are Warmachine miniatures sales included?

Quote from: DrewInteresting, do they update these figures on a monthly basis? I'd be more interested in looking at buying trends over a year or two, as one popular release can make a huge difference, particularly for those companies that regularly populate the lower rankings.

YES - they are updated monthly. Personally, I love the fact thast GURPS has been in the top 5 the past few months and that EXALTED is so "down" there in the rankings.

 These ranks are based on actual sales in unit numbers and trends as reported by Game Stores across North America and in the U.K. and Europe.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar1:Dungeons & Dragons Wizards of the Coast 27.9 27.9 100%
2:World of Darkness White Wolf 6.8 8.7 53%
3:GURPS Steve Jackson 1.8 2.3 22%

[/B]
 
No brainers there.
 

Quote4:Iron Kingdoms Privateer Press 1.8 1.8 14%
5:Castles & Crusades Troll Lord 1.2 1.6 35%

Very curious indeed.
 

Quote6: Rifts Palladium 1.2 1.6 25%
7:Warhammer FRP Black Industries 1.1 1.5 22%
8:Shadowrun Fantasy Productions 1.0 1.3 20%
9:d20 Modern Wizartds of the Coast 1.0 1.0 8%
10: Star Wars d20 Wizards of the Coast
 
11: BESM 3rd Ed White Wolf
12: d20 Misc. Paizo
13: Serenity MWP
14: World of Warcraft White Wolf
15: Dungeon Crawl Classics Goodman Games
 
16: Hero System 5th Edition Hero
17: Legend of the Five Rings Alderac
18: Savage Worlds Pinnacle
19: Exalted White Wolf
20: FUDGE Grey Ghost

IMHO, there some very interesting results.  Sure, D&D rules the roost, but a market share of less than 30% is way less than I expected.  It shows that there is still plenty of potential in the market for a new game to take some market share.  I mean, if a small game like Castles and Crusades can make 5th place, that should give hope to a lot of small publishers.
 
Of course, this is only one month of data.

Quote from: SosthenesWow, IK is that high? Only the RPG or are Warmachine miniatures sales included?

 That chart is ONLY the RPG line sales. Miniatures games are listed seperately - different chart and all.

Here is the web page for the magazine : http://www.comicsretailer.com/

 - Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarYES - they are updated monthly. Personally, I love the fact thast GURPS has been in the top 5 the past few months and that EXALTED is so "down" there in the rankings.

Everyone likes to see their favourite system do well, and I'm sure the Exalted haters will be along soon enough to crow about their perceived victory. That's why I'm interested in looking at long term trends, a few months of popularity really isn't enough to start claiming the high ground.
   

QuoteThese ranks are based on actual sales in unit numbers and trends as reported by Game Stores across North America and in the U.K. and Europe.

Cool. Is any one of the figures related to the number of units shifted? I want to know what #raw:, wtd.: and turnout: actually means in terms of absoloute sales figures.

Remember that WoTC makes a shitload of sales in the big-box bookstores.  That means their actual market share is actually undoubtedly higher than these stats (which are only of sales in specialty game stores, and only a few of those) would indicate.

RPGPundit

I'm also quite surprised to see that C&C and IK are outselling WFRP, even if it is for only one month.

To translate...mainly because I wasn't perfect at transcribing it all.

"Raw" means raw average number of copies sold of each product reported by each store.

"wtd." means weighted unit sales is defined this way by them: To arrive at our weighted unit sales figures for role-playing games, sales on products that did not individual retailers' top-seller lists but did make enough other retailers' lists are extrapolated and are integrated into the non-sellers' charts at sales levels below their last place titles.

The turnout figure for each product tells what percentage of retailers who sell products in a specific category said that a specific product was a "top seller" for them.

So anything below a 20% on the turnout figure is pretty much less than impressive.

- Ed C.

Look at Fudge. Go, Fudge!
That's the only one, really, that surpises me.

Quote from: KoltarTo translate...mainly because I wasn't perfect at transcribing it all.

"Raw" means raw average number of copies sold of each product reported by each store.

"wtd." means weighted unit sales is defined this way by them: To arrive at our weighted unit sales figures for role-playing games, sales on products that did not individual retailers' top-seller lists but did make enough other retailers' lists are extrapolated and are integrated into the non-sellers' charts at sales levels below their last place titles.

The turnout figure for each product tells what percentage of retailers who sell products in a specific category said that a specific product was a "top seller" for them.

So anything below a 20% on the turnout figure is pretty much less than impressive.

- Ed C.

Interesting stuff. It's worth noting that the figures seem to bear out most peoples uninformed assessment, namely that D&D is streets ahead with WoD trailing at a fair distance and everything else clustering around the 1-2 wtd. point several miles behind.

Another question: Any idea how many stores participate in this? A rough estimate would do, just to get a feel for actual sales figures in a given month.

Quote from: DrewAnother question: Any idea how many stores participate in this? A rough estimate would do, just to get a feel for actual sales figures in a given month.

Drew - I had to take my copy of the magazine back to the store earlier today. My manager usually lets me take them home a month after we get them .  
 Lets put it this way : I don't know the "exact: numbers but it has to be between hundreds ands maybe thousands of stores.

 You figure Cincinnati here has at least 4 game stores that I know of ...including the one that I work at .  Now, Dayton, Ohio has at least one store ..maybe two. (They had TWO stores close down a couple of years ago. ) Then there is Columbus, Ohio which I know has at least TWO game stores from what out-of-town visitors tell me.  So lets say 10 to 12 game stores for the state of Ohio.  Extrapolate that to the whole United States figuring Ohio as an "average" - thats 500 stores...more in some cities on average...then you got the U.K. and Europe.

 Figure between 500 and 1,000 game stores...MORE stores if you count Comic Book stores that also sell games. So ...closer to a 1,000.

- Ed C

Quote from: KoltarFigure between 500 and 1,000 game stores...MORE stores if you count Comic Book stores that also sell games. So ...closer to a 1,000.

So we're looking at as many as 28 000 D&D books sold a month?

That seems... pretty high, but without any other data I've nothing to go on. Maybe it's just an average month for Wizards.

From that same page of the magazine;

Their words:

   The average store reporting unit shares to us sold at least 51 copies (55 weighted) of its Top 12 role-playing games, for a gross revenue of around $1,275.(Last month, the Top 12 role-playing games accounted for 55 copies.) For just those top games (not the whole market), these manufacturers accounted for the most weighted unit sales:

1 Wizards of the Coast   53.94%
2 White Wolf     19.13%
3 Steve Jackson       4.22%
4 Privateer Press      3.23%
5  Troll Lord     2.93%

6 Palladium     2.90%
7 Black Industries     2.65%
8 Fantasy Productions     2.38%
9 Goodman Games     1.34%

   Other......7.28%

Why post this stuff? The rankings and things?? Because it seems relevant to mnany of the arguments and debates you guys /we have on here.

- Ed C.

Going by these figures it would seem the hobby is in a far healthier state than the doomsayers would have us believe.

Quote from: DrewSo we're looking at as many as 28 000 D&D books sold a month?

That seems... pretty high, but without any other data I've nothing to go on. Maybe it's just an average month for Wizards.

 Thats NOT including places like BORDERS books, B., DALTON booksellers, JOSEPH-BETH book stores - which also sell TSR/WOTC D&D books.

The nearby BORDERS just dropped selling GURPS books (majorly disappointing me)  They DID have on shelf about 15 to 20 various current 3.5  D&D books ...AND  3 or 4 WORLD OF DARKNESS/Vampire books.

- Ed C.

Quote from: DrewGoing by these figures it would seem the hobby is in a far healthier state than the doomsayers would have us believe.

I've been saying that in various places for a year or two.

Pessimists just make a bigger noise. Maybe the MIdwest is doing better with RPGs in general.

- Ed C.

Thanx a lot for such data! They are very impressive indeed!

BTW: Have you any idea of the trends... such as, was WotC solding more/less/same amount last year or the year before and such?

I hope we will here from you with another issue too :p

Quote from: AlnagI hope we will here from you with another issue too :p

Good idea, Alnag. If Koltar makes this into a regular thing then we might be able to to start actually having some informed discussion around here.

One thing I noticed... add it all up, the average game store is selling 50 or so rpg books a month, a couple a day. I can only assume that they're also selling a heap of miniatures, CCGs, and for the comic & game stores, comics? Because you're not going to be able to run a store on two rpg books sold a day.

Quote from: Kyle AaronOne thing I noticed... add it all up, the average game store is selling 50 or so rpg books a month, a couple a day. I can only assume that they're also selling a heap of miniatures, CCGs, and for the comic & game stores, comics? Because you're not going to be able to run a store on two rpg books sold a day.

 Accurate guess there.

 Even the store I work at - we seel games OTHER than RPGs.

 For Example: AXIS & ALLIES (the Boardgames), RISK, MONOPOLY (12 different versions), SCRABBLE (3 different versions), STRATEGO, TSURO, BLOKUS,  HEROCLIX miniatures, WARHAMMER miniatures(including 40K), STAR WARS miniatures, D&D Miniatures, BATTLETECH miniatures, a whole WALL or REAPER-made miniatures, APPLES-to-APPLES (including the NEw Bibblical version), ...etc..

 Oh yeah also : MAGIC:THe Gathering the TCG, YU-GI-OH, POKEMON,  VS:The Superhero card game, PIRATES of the....constructible ship game from WIZKIDS, LORD OF THE RINGS the card game, ....

 TONS of DICE from both Chessex & KOPLOW......


oh ...also "traditional" WARGAMES  from Avalanche Press and GMT.

 And of course games like MUNCHKIN, NINJA BURGER, ILLUMINATI, SPANC from Steve Jackson Games...

OOPS!! Almost forgot the "Euro" or German-school of Board games like SETTLERS OF CATAAN, CArcassone ,  Dos Rios, Puerto Rico - we sell those too!!


- Ed C.

These figures are only covering brick-and-mortar stores, correct? I wonder how these figures compare to sales through online retailers for dead-tree material and for PDFs of the same games.

Koltar, can you think of any way to get those sales figures as well?

So really, what's the "bread & butter" of the game store? Or is a variety of things?

Quote from: KoltarTo translate...mainly because I wasn't perfect at transcribing it all.

"Raw" means raw average number of copies sold of each product reported by each store.

"wtd." means weighted unit sales is defined this way by them: To arrive at our weighted unit sales figures for role-playing games, sales on products that did not individual retailers' top-seller lists but did make enough other retailers' lists are extrapolated and are integrated into the non-sellers' charts at sales levels below their last place titles.

The turnout figure for each product tells what percentage of retailers who sell products in a specific category said that a specific product was a "top seller" for them.

So anything below a 20% on the turnout figure is pretty much less than impressive.

- Ed C.

Turnout is an interesting stat. That means that some stores do a lot of business in niche games, but everyone counts D&D as a bread and butter product line.

Quote from: Kyle AaronSo really, what's the "bread & butter" of the game store? Or is a variety of things?

I'd be really surprised if CCG's and minis (especially the prepainted variety) didn't factor in heavily.

Quote from: Kyle AaronSo really, what's the "bread & butter" of the game store? Or is a variety of things?

 It really depends on the week.

Only noticeable seasonal "trend" is that we sell more traditional "family" games the last 3 months of the year.
That is for the obvious reason of the Holidays and gift giving time of the year. Our daily and weekly sales goals tend to double and triple in mid Octrober and stasy that high till about mid-January. (NO I'm NOT posting actual numbers. By rules I gotta keep that PRIVATE)

For example : a couple of days ago I had to fill in for my manager who was sick. I did 8 hours that day....my first sakle of the days was one purchase of around $159.00 for WARHAMMER 40K miniatures...but the same guy also bought some dice...AND he had been in the store a montn ago buyng D&D books.

Those booster boxes of STAR WARS miniatures that are compatible with the RPG? The larger ones sell for $21.99 before tax. (think "UNIVERSE" and "BOUNTY HUNTERS" boxes)Customers in the past have bought 3 or 4 of those at a time.  Thats around 65 to 85 dollars right there.  THEN the same customer might buy some dice....and oh yeah - his mom wants him to pick up APPLES TO APPLES for the next family gathering.

- Ed C.

You just explained why every game company with the means to make miniatures is making them as fast as they can, even if that means cutting back on RPGs.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckYou just explained why every game company with the means to make miniatures is making them as fast as they can, even if that means cutting back on RPGs.

I've been saying for years now that prepainted minis are the future. Whether we like it or not it seems that's where it seems the real money is.

All I can hope for is that the revenues generated are siphoned into the production of top-notch RPG books that complement the figure lines. Wizards seem to have struck a nice balance with D&D and Star Wars, I sincerely hope that other companies follow suit. The kind of outfits where the mangement still have a personal interest in the kind of tabletop gaming we still enjoy.

Just my input;  Our store is a bookstore first, and gaming store second, but we easilly sell more CCGs and Minis than RPG books overall.  Kids buying individual boosters or kids with parents buying them something bigger as a present all add up.  And then we have people who occasionally buy L5R cards by the box.  Add to that the fact that you can run tournaments of minis/CCGs where people have to buy n many sealed packs to enter, and it becomes a foregone thing.

With that said, we do have a fairly steady stream of RPG sales from regulars, and the occasional splurging tourist (the kind of people you see only once, but who drop £100+ on every book you have in stock for a system, presumably because they have no FLGS...).  We run a gaming evening on Thursdays, but only very recently were minis/CCGs involved at all, people wanted a time and place to Roleplay.

So... reading the stats it seems, that d20 system holds about 70% of the market. Well sure, most of it is DnD, but still... that is quite impressive.

Quote from: AlnagSo... reading the stats it seems, that d20 system holds about 70% of the market. Well sure, most of it is DnD, but still... that is quite impressive.

I guess it doesn't surprise me all that much. It just makes sense that once you get D20 via D&D you'll be willing to try other methods and settings out.

Where do adventures like the DCC line from Goodman Games factor into all this?

Quote from: JamesVI guess it doesn't surprise me all that much. It just makes sense that once you get D20 via D&D you'll be willing to try other methods and settings out.

Agreed. My players learned the D20 system from D&D, and now we're looking at playing Star Wars because we already know the system.

Quote from: Tyberious Funk[/B]
 
No brainers there.

Not necessarily. GURPS had been lurking down below the top 10. It seems like it either had a comeback or its competitors winnowed away a bit.

I'm surprised not to see M&M on the list at all. It was dwelling in the top 5.

If you read Ken Hite's column, those Comics Retailer market share figures have been steady for the past few years.

Exceptions: Iron Kingdoms (is there a new edition?), C&C, M&M. Exalted is on its way out, I guess. See dwindling number of Exalted threads on rpg.net.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityExalted is on its way out, I guess. See dwindling number of Exalted threads on rpg.net.

Yah, only seven of them on the first page...

GrimGent, we're talking trends here, not snapshots. In your favor, hope springs eternal.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityExalted is on its way out, I guess. See dwindling number of Exalted threads on rpg.net.

Quote from: GrimGentYah, only seven of them on the first page...

Grimgent, you say that as if with sarcasm, and yet his statement and yours are in no way contradictory!!

There was a time not too long ago when there was rarely less than an even dozen Exalted threads on the front of the RPG.net page at any given time.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThere was a time not too long ago when there was rarely less than an even dozen Exalted threads on the front of the RPG.net page at any given time.

But that still happens every now and then. Those threads on the first page of RP Open only go back about half a day, after all.

Quote from: GrimGentBut that still happens every now and then. Those threads on the first page of RP Open only go back about half a day, after all.

That's a cyclical thing.  When the new edition of Sidereals comes out, expect a revival of thread presence.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThat's a cyclical thing.  When the new edition of Sidereals comes out, expect a revival of thread presence.

Well, what I meant was more that there'll probably always be another seven threads on the second page, and it would only take a fresh batch of posters waking up in a different timezone to bring them to the front.

...For those of you lurking from other forums. .......

 Thank You for re-posting the original post as a new thread over there and saying "Found on another board".

Interesting to see myself quoted somewhere else under the handle that I use here.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar...For those of you lurking from other forums. .......

 Thank You for re-posting the original post as a new thread over there and saying "Found on another board".

Interesting to see myself quoted somewhere else under the handle that I use here.


- Ed C.

That's because they know you're the shizznit.

Quote from: KoltarThese ranks are based on actual sales in unit numbers and trends as reported by Game Stores across North America and in the U.K. and Europe.

It's a fine data point and definitely better than nothing, but this isn't a random sample.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiIt's a fine data point and definitely better than nothing, but this isn't a random sample.

Seanchai

 TRUE - but theoretically any store manager or owner who cares enough to fill out the form and send it back in also cares about his business enough that those stores will stay around for all of us to shop at..

 In theory at least....


- Ed C.

Judging by their Booth at Comic-Con...Privateer press is doing VERY well for themselves. Only Wizards and WizKids (Barely) had a bigger presence.

Quote from: KrakaJakJudging by their Booth at Comic-Con...Privateer press is doing VERY well for themselves. Only Wizards and WizKids (Barely) had a bigger presence.

Privateer's booth is always swamped.  I know they've made some serious inroads here in Indy with Warmachine, and I'm happy to see it.  They seem like really nice folks that have their act together.

Quote from: KoltarTRUE - but theoretically any store manager or owner who cares enough to fill out the form and send it back in also cares about his business enough that those stores will stay around for all of us to shop at..

In theory at least....

I was the first (and to this day, AFAIK, the only) German retailer to participate in the statistics section of C&GR. For two or three years I sent both data and a Market Beat report (a snapshot of what happened in the store during the month in question; I liked that section more than the dry numbers because it told me more about the store level happenings and "vibes").

Alas, my shop doesn't exist anymore, so your theory is flawed...

The numbers section has also be taken with a grain of salt. In addition to being a self selected sample, any retailer is only asked for the numbers of the 12 best-selling game lines of any given month. The problem is that at lines 9 to 20 you are likely to find games that have sold equal amounts of copies, and you have pick which ones get entered into the data pool.

Plus, I don't think that all participating retailers use merchandise management software that gives you the data at a mouse click. I did, and I learned that the hard numbers were sometimes way off from my gut feeling whether Shadowrun or Vampire had sold more copies.

Those margins of error can add up quite considerably.

(But then, obviousy I also considered this kind of data collection more useful than not having it at all, or else I wouldn't have bothered participating.)

While interesting, it doesn't really take into account mail order and (more importantly) online orders nor convention sales.

In the case of, say, White Wolf games, this makes up a sizable percentage of their sales from what I understand. The last time they mentioned sales statistics (in the last six months) Exalted was well ahead of the new World of Darkness material, which makes me think that their products aren't too accurately assessed just looking at game store sales.

I'm unsurprised to see GURPS working its way back up; they're getting bread and butter supplements out now, and those are always popular.

Warhammer Fantasy is a little slower than I'd suspect, but that may just be a monthly thing.

The BESM numbers make me a bit sad; it's a pity that GoO went under.

Quote from: KoltarTRUE - but theoretically any store manager or owner who cares enough to fill out the form and send it back in also cares about his business enough that those stores will stay around for all of us to shop at..

 In theory at least....

But caring doesn't make them a representative sample. If we got data from random stores, we'd have a representative sample. This data is definitely interesting, etc., but...

Seanchai