I know my opinion on RPG safety tools. I want yours!
I want to see what people have to say on the topic.
They're a blatant attempt to extend the arm of control to people's private tables?
I do think there should probably be some clarity in what a game will be about before people join. A game of shockingly brutal horror is probably not safe for anyone nor should it be.
People play the way they want. I don't use them.
People in other forums have advocated having them be a requirement to run a game at conventions. I disagree with this and got banned in another place for voicing said opposition.
While I admire the intent behind them. I question their application of them. It seems to me to invite another way for some random troll to come along and upend the table on any game they take a disliking to. They enable this bad behavior.
The most popular of the RPG safety tools were given space in the Fate Accessibility Toolkit. And I honestly question the motivation of why. Why anyone would put them in a book specifically made to address disabled characters and disabled gamers. They seem completely off-topic.
What I really dislike about safety tool zealots is the assumption that we've all been running offensive games for decades and we need to be taught how to not be an asshole, and thankfully the safety tool zealot is here to save us from ourselves. It's pure projection.
As for the tools themselves, I think they're generally unnecessary. The game and setting describe what you can expect. Does the setting have slavery or torture? Okay, then these topics might come up. The group can discuss these things and agree what to include and exclude, if they care. If it's a public/open group, then the GM can tell people what's on the table. We did this before safety tools.
As for the X Card specifically, if someone needs it, they probably shouldn't be playing games of the imagination with others. They have bigger issues that need sorting out before sitting down at a table to play an RPG. It's a game, not your personal therapy session. It's also just poorly thought out. Go read the X Card creator's instructions on how to use it. He encourages you to use the X Card to veto anything from an awkward NPC name, to funny elves, to sexual violence. I think it's irresponsible to bundle all those things together and claim that this magic piece of paper will make you "safe."
I always play with a helmet, knee and elbow pads, and a mouth guard and cup in case the DM decides to make people do physical challenges to pass the strength check instead of letting us roll dice to decide.
Other than those things, I think we need some safety dice so they won't cut you or fall on the table and smash your toes.
Safety pencils because you don't want the graphite to break off and get into your eye.
And some safety deodorant because.. well.. some people need to freshen up.
I don't mind the "X Card". If they don't like the direction, then it's a very simple tool that needs no other discussion around it. You just move on.
The X card should be used very rarely, if at all, but it provides a very simple safety valve for anyone who does need it & for whatever reasons. And it can give you more space to push the boundaries and limits as an edgy edgelord Game Master, if that's what you're after.
Anything beyond that is probably dumb. I don't see the need for it.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 01:42:04 PM
I know my opinion on RPG safety tools. I want yours!
I want to see what people have to say on the topic.
Don't use them, wont use them. If a player asks to use them they will be asked to leave.
Player's consent is only "Do you want to play in my game? Yes/No"
That's it. Can't handle the game? Leave, I am not changing it for you.
*Edit* I don't see them discussed much anymore, not even over at the big purple turd, so I think they never caught on because people don't need them and they will eventually fade away for good.
Like many modern "innovations" this is a misguided attempt to control TTRPG horror stories. Adding a card mechanism to trigger that is unnecessary and solves nothing not already covered with resolving the issue by conversation or removing yourself from the table.
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"
Quote from: Palleon on June 01, 2022, 02:31:34 PM
Like many modern "innovations" this is a misguided attempt to control TTRPG horror stories. Adding a card mechanism to trigger that is unnecessary and solves nothing not already covered with resolving the issue by conversation or removing yourself from the table.
Yep. The scumbags running those horror story games aren't going to be using safety tools and those problems will still exist.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 02:12:25 PM
...
While I admire the intent behind them. I question their application of them. It seems to me to invite another way for some random troll to come along and upend the table on any game they take a disliking to. They enable this bad behavior.
...
I don't admire the intent. It is the grasping hands of mentally disturbed people to exert control on the PRG hobby by trying to shame people in submission.
"..."Safety tools" will end up making people less safe by undermining cultural standards for what one can reasonably expect at a game table. "Player Character Rapeyness is a no-no in this establishment, and sexytime is fade to black. No need for overly graphic descriptions: I can say "You see NPC#2 being tortured on The Rack of Pain! ..." and everyone gets the idea.
This is Not Hard.
Safety and consent tools? I am running an elfgame not a BDSM session...
It used to be that when people told their bad GM stories (Which were often told as a kind of badge of honor of: "'I survived the game of a weirdo GM..." ) that was the signal of someone to avoid.
These kinds of people quickly found themselves on the outside fringes of whatever local RPG scene there was. Outcast for their bad behavior. If they wanted acceptance they had to learn what proper behavior was, and then slowly, over time, earn peoples trust.
"Safety tools" do not instill, nor are they a substitute for, proper behavior. You're just handing someone a list of what they can get away with...
For me the only thing "Safety tools" are good for is as a nice visible red flag for avoiding GM's that say they make use of them, and as a way to weed out potential problem players that want them to be used (We're playing an elfgame, this is not a group therapy substitute...)
So they are not totally useless within the hobby...
Tools for narcissists to gain power and leverage.
If you want to use them in your game, go ahead. I won't use them in mine and I won't play in a game that does. As others have mentioned I think they don't solve any problem that couldn't be solved by having an adult conversation beforehand. That's why before I start any game I let the players know what to expect and I ask them to raise any concerns at that time.
Then again, my gaming these days is solely with a static pool of players that have all known each other for 10+ years. I already know that Bob doesn't like full on gore-porn levels of violence and that animal cruelty tweaks Joe but he's ok with it if it's not excessive or out of genre. Since we're all friends, I respect that and they trust me to not cross those lines without a very good reason (like in a horror game where I need Bob to feel unsettled). Even then I do it sparingly because otherwise it's not fun and that's what we're there for, to have fun.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 01, 2022, 02:24:35 PM
*Edit* I don't see them discussed much anymore, not even over at the big purple turd, so I think they never caught on because people don't need them and they will eventually fade away for good.
I buy a lot of indie/small press titles of various stripes. I see them mentioned a lot in these. It's not always a big spiel about it, more akin to the old "what is an RPG" paragraph or sidebar.
Quote from: Jaeger on June 01, 2022, 03:02:39 PM
"Safety tools" do not instill, nor are they a substitute for, proper behavior. You're just handing someone a list of what they can get away with...
Yep, codifying good behavior just invites people to push the limits. Anyone having experience with children knows this.
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 01, 2022, 02:20:36 PM
What I really dislike about safety tool zealots is the assumption that we've all been running offensive games for decades and we need to be taught how to not be an asshole, and thankfully the safety tool zealot is here to save us from ourselves. It's pure projection.
As for the tools themselves, I think they're generally unnecessary. The game and setting describe what you can expect. Does the setting have slavery or torture? Okay, then these topics might come up. The group can discuss these things and agree what to include and exclude, if they care. If it's a public/open group, then the GM can tell people what's on the table. We did this before safety tools.
As for the X Card specifically, if someone needs it, they probably shouldn't be playing games of the imagination with others. They have bigger issues that need sorting out before sitting down at a table to play an RPG. It's a game, not your personal therapy session. It's also just poorly thought out. Go read the X Card creator's instructions on how to use it. He encourages you to use the X Card to veto anything from an awkward NPC name, to funny elves, to sexual violence. I think it's irresponsible to bundle all those things together and claim that this magic piece of paper will make you "safe."
This. All of this. It's a really simple litmus test. If someone thinks that they need a safety tool to play in my game, they aren't welcome. If they think they need a safety tool to run their game, I'm actively disinterested in seeing what's in that game. It's either no big deal stuff run by a GM with difficulty or insecurity in understanding basic human boundaries, or it's something that shouldn't be run. Either way, doesn't sound like fun to me.
Not going into details right now, since I'm about to go do other stuff, but someone described them at another forum as "a solution looking for a problem'". Pretty much sums up "safety" tools, IMO.
Quote from: rgalex on June 01, 2022, 03:44:22 PM
I buy a lot of indie/small press titles of various stripes. I see them mentioned a lot in these. It's not always a big spiel about it, more akin to the old "what is an RPG" paragraph or sidebar.
Since I am sure most people stick with the big names (Such as D&D) I am sure those aren't seen by the majority of gamers. I think that they are mentioned because they feel they need to, but I just don't see in any of the chatter I have read and the games I have played in them being used. I ran a game at PaxCon and they have the X Cards but I put them aside and wouldnt let them be used in my game. Nobody said anything, some people got overzealous, used some adult words but no one cared, they all had fun.
I guess I could see a place for some guidelines....but not in any game I would ever be GM'ing, or maybe even playing in, if that makes sense? I do not really play with complete strangers, and if I did, it would be as a player and not a GM. I remember seeing a game at the local FLGS that was a pay to participate game that was made up of home schooled kids and GM'd by one of the store employees. A game like that I could see have a few guidelines everyone agrees to beforehand because there is in essence a service being paid for, so everyone should have expectations of how that goes before they all sit down to play. There were around 8 players at every session and I thought the GM did a good job of keeping the game moving and keeping the kids engaged (they were all adolescent/early teens and were very energetic, but though they got excitable were polite and engaged the entire time).
So something like that I could see some expectations of behavior at the table being laid down for everyone, but I also could not see a scenario where the GM is going to walk any dark paths that could trigger some hidden trauma either. I guess there might be a direct proportion of a need for some sorts of behavior rules that is involves how many strangers you play RPGs with. If its zero, you have zero use for them, if everyone is a stranger, might be OK to let everyone know what sorts of things we are not going to talk about at the table (sex jokes, toilet humor, politics, etc). I think the GM can set the rules as he/she sees fit, and players either play or dont. They can be as vague as there are no rules, or list out a few things we are just not going to touch on.
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"
I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.
A life goal is to release a product on KS, with a promise to add additional safety tools as one of the stretch goals. When achieved, throw in a new table for thicker leather working gloves, titanium scabbards, boot spikes, and mining earplugs.
Then add a note that masks were notably absent from the tools because 'everybody knows they do not actually work'.
The problem is another life goal of mine is to not do business with Kickstarter. So...
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"
I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.
Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it [ place card at the center of the table ].
You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself. [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card? [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use? [ pause ] Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"
The only safety tools I offer is to use my woodshop tools to blunt the ends of your d4's, d8's and some d10's. I also use a table sturdy enough to actually support all the books the players bring to their table and am trained in CPR if any Cheetos, Mountain Dew, Pizza or the occasional die goes down the wrong pipe.
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"
I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.
Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself. [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card? [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use? [ pause ] Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"
Malicious compliance is a great reason for booting an asshole from the table.
Quote from: GhostNinja on June 01, 2022, 04:12:56 PM
Quote from: rgalex on June 01, 2022, 03:44:22 PM
I buy a lot of indie/small press titles of various stripes. I see them mentioned a lot in these. It's not always a big spiel about it, more akin to the old "what is an RPG" paragraph or sidebar.
Since I am sure most people stick with the big names (Such as D&D) I am sure those aren't seen by the majority of gamers. I think that they are mentioned because they feel they need to, but I just don't see in any of the chatter I have read and the games I have played in them being used. I ran a game at PaxCon and they have the X Cards but I put them aside and wouldnt let them be used in my game. Nobody said anything, some people got overzealous, used some adult words but no one cared, they all had fun.
These are already present in Pathfinder 2E. One of the champions of this is now at WotC, and I heard the Ravenloft book included mentioning them. I would expect them to be in the 50th anniversary changes, since there's a shared delusion from the current crop of designers that they are helpful.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 06:16:29 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"
I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.
Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself. [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card? [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use? [ pause ] Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"
Malicious compliance is a great reason for booting an asshole from the table.
The X-card tool itself is malicious. Nobody should feel bad about using the tool's own rules against it. I encourage anyone who has this put out in a convention game to just touch tap the card about every 15 or so minutes. Point out that you shouldn't have to explain why, but make up some sob story to explain why you tapped the card. The more melodramatic the better. If you find yourself at an X-card table just realize that your original hopes for a decent game were already lost. Now you might as well get your entertainment wrecking a Woke game, and maybe, just maybe you'll get one of the Woke to question their cult beliefs.
HappyDaze, your butt-hurt reaction just shows what a lame tool the X-card actually is, and that your afraid of just how easy it is to turn it on itself.
I would think that in a convention a note that a game includes safety cards could be very valuable for one that wanted to avoid the type of people that feel they need such a thing to protect themselves.
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM
Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself. [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card? [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use? [ pause ] Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"
It takes just one player with ill intent to turn the X-Card against the group, and start using it to object to anything and everything. It just takes the one troll to use this to disrupt the entire group.
The X-Card is no replacement for having an adult conversation before the group even starts. It just isn't.
The negatives I personally see from using it far outweigh the positives.
Greetings!
X-Cards are for weak, crybaby pussies.
None of that bullshit is at my game table. I would never play with such fucking retarded morons.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
What's unsafe about a game played in the imagination? Absolutely nothing...
What safety tools do you need more than an age rating? RPGs are as safe as any other media. And some stuff is not meant for children.
Only people who are in some way mentally deficient would actually be upset by 'fantastical' elfgames, horror movies, books, or scary comics.
This does make me circle back to a key idea though. Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with? Time is a limited resource, pretty much the only one that once wasted can never be replenished, so I do not take chances on wasting it with people I have no idea about how they play or anything about them. Maybe there is a different feeling to playing consistently with strangers, but I honestly never need X cards, safety tools, or anything else because I am not going to play with people I have not vetted to some degree.
None of the games I have written include safety tools. But I'm really tempted to add if you're under 40, get written permission from your parents. :-)
I used to run convention games. For those games, I was given a form to fill out by the convention staff. They wanted to know what sort of content was being used at their conventions. And usually, they used movie ratings.
My personal movie ratings for my games run at a convention never went beyond PG. Conventions are a public place. So I treat them like it.
The methods I used were good enough for the convention organizers. In fact, I got members of the convention organizing team to play in the games I ran. And there were never any incidents or objections raised by them. So I must have been doing everything right.
Quote from: zircher on June 01, 2022, 06:41:02 PM
None of the games I have written include safety tools. But I'm really tempted to add if you're under 40, get written permission from your parents. :-)
Such a sad state we're in now that you're warning to those "under 40, get write permission from your parents." is not entirely laughable. When I got my first rpg it was labeled "For 3 or More
Adults, Ages 10 and Up".
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 01:42:04 PM
I know my opinion on RPG safety tools. I want yours!
I want to see what people have to say on the topic.
If you need RPG safety tools to play, then you shouldn't be playing.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
This does make me circle back to a key idea though. Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with? Time is a limited resource, pretty much the only one that once wasted can never be replenished, so I do not take chances on wasting it with people I have no idea about how they play or anything about them. Maybe there is a different feeling to playing consistently with strangers, but I honestly never need X cards, safety tools, or anything else because I am not going to play with people I have not vetted to some degree.
It is pretty tough to vette the players coming in to a convention game that you are running. You can kick one out after they do something bad, but by then they have already done something bad.
I don't use any tools. I communicate.
I don't mind instructions or guidelines that everyone can agree on before the game though. Something like a classification system sort of like an age rating before a movie (could be useful if were playing at someones house and the home owner have kids of varying degrees of age that might accidentally hear stuff not meant for kids ears). I emphasize Before The Game but between sessions is fine too, if you know that next adventure might get a bit... hmmm ...controversial.
Just recently I explained after the players freed a couple of slaves, including sex slaves, that this is a totally legal thing the bad guys were doing, and freeing the slaves would be just as illegal as taking them and sell them off themselves! But selling them wouldnt be a Lightside deed, but a darkside deed. (the game is set in post endor star wars on a remnant planet where slavery hasnt been outlawed yet by the new republic.)
Any player who would feel slavery would trigger them would simply be told to watch the movies again. It's canon.
A couple of years ago I ran a game set in early 20th century Europe. I told my players that a lot of the NPCs they meet will use antisemitic and racist slurs in casual talk, but I wouldnt necessarily say them. The players would just have to use their imagination and mentally inject slurs here and there. Whenever I did use slurs in a NPC dialogue was to point out to the players that THIS particular guy would be considered over the top racist even for its time.
My point is, have a talk with your players to get the feel of what they are comfortable with. No need for safety tools.
Since I've played with the same players for years we got a feel what lines shouldnt be crossed -maybe safety tools are more useful for those often playing with strangers?
Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
This does make me circle back to a key idea though. Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with? Time is a limited resource, pretty much the only one that once wasted can never be replenished, so I do not take chances on wasting it with people I have no idea about how they play or anything about them. Maybe there is a different feeling to playing consistently with strangers, but I honestly never need X cards, safety tools, or anything else because I am not going to play with people I have not vetted to some degree.
Greetings!
Exactly, Ogg!
Can you imagine playing with a group of Marines? Or a group of veterans and redneck girls?
Introducing "X-Cards" would get you mercilessly laughed at and ridiculed to no fucking end. ;D
I routinely keep my Marine K-Bar at my game table. Sometimes, my Glock .45 is nearby as well. My Glock .45 pistol is my ultimate "X-Card". ;D
I have a game table set up in one part of my garage, which also serves as a hobby table. Just feet away, are extensive work tables and a reloading bench. Lots of weapons and ammunition. Welcome to the "House of Guns!" ;D
I have one group of players that routinely smoke cigars, and bring whiskey to drink while playing. The girls smoke cigarettes. The room is often filled with people running their mouths with *no filters* whatsoever. Savage humour. Proclamations of conquest and ruthless violence abound. The hate flows like sweet syrup. Sexual humour, making fun of retards, expressing derision for cock-sucking pussy SJW's is absolutely routine. Guns, liquor, cigars and cigarettes. The men are men, and the women are women. No one is fucking "confused" about their fucking gender. Women actually like to fuck real men, and the men like to fuck real women. No one is confused or somehow opening their mouth with emotional diarrhea about "Gender Fluid" they are. It is also interesting how this group--and many others I have played with--never snivel and worry about the fucking Orcs being some oppressed minority, and them being victims of "White Supremacy" and "Colonialism". Drow Elves are wicked and evil, and should always be relentlessly exterminated.
Most monsters and traditionally evil humanoid races likewise are simply put to the sword, or cast into the great fire. Let their tortured cries and the smoke from their death be as a sweet incense to the Heavens!
Yeah, SJW's wouldn't be comfortable in such a group, for sure. Let them fucking REEE all they want. Most normal gamers will continue to gather together with like-minded, normal gamers, and play and enjoy the game properly, and not have the game corrupted by SJW pussy crybabies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 01, 2022, 06:56:24 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 01:42:04 PM
I know my opinion on RPG safety tools. I want yours!
I want to see what people have to say on the topic.
If you need RPG safety tools to play, then you shouldn't be playing.
If you need RPG safety tools to play an RPG, then you shouldn't be playing, and you shouldn't be trying to substitute an RPG game for a therapy session. The gaming table is not the place to work your shit out.
If you want to use RPG safety tools you're a manipulative leech looking to turn RPG games into a therapy session so you get your kicks off other people's drama. "Oooh, John touched the X-card as I described that the bloodthirsty Vikings have engaged in rape, pillage and plunder of the village they've come across. I wonder what kind of issues John has?"
John should not have signed up for a medieval fantasy game where bad guys are going to do bad things if that was going to bother him. The game master should not have put the X-card out to trick John that the game would have somehow been safe. Everyone going to know now that John has issues he can't handle at an RPG game, and even if John wanted that attention, it does John harm to feed that kind of self-centeredness.
If someone is going to go beyond any normal limits of good taste ("fade to black" for sexy time as someone mentioned before) an X-card isn't going to save anyone. That person will plow beyond any decent boundaries before the X-card can be invoked, or they'll ignore the X-card. That's a 1-in-a-thousand scenario at best, and creating a useless safety tool for that rare situation just reveals safety isn't the actual point of the X-card. If you somehow keep running into the 1-in-thousand scenario, then that indicates that you have issues, and you need therapy, not trying to substitute RPGs for therapy.
SHARK:
I'm going to say this once. I grew up around veterans. I grew up around active military. One of my uncles served in Vietnam. And I was the first person ever to thank him for his service genuinely.
I made him cry like a baby in doing so. Where he was finally able to open up and tell about the things he saw and did in the war. To say he saw action and lived the horror of war is understating things. And he is the first person to stand up and say he was no hero.
Your macho Marine act doesn't work on me. A real man, a real soldier, doesn't act like a child pretending to be an adult.
Quote from: jeff37923 on June 01, 2022, 07:04:45 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
This does make me circle back to a key idea though. Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with? Time is a limited resource, pretty much the only one that once wasted can never be replenished, so I do not take chances on wasting it with people I have no idea about how they play or anything about them. Maybe there is a different feeling to playing consistently with strangers, but I honestly never need X cards, safety tools, or anything else because I am not going to play with people I have not vetted to some degree.
It is pretty tough to vette the players coming in to a convention game that you are running. You can kick one out after they do something bad, but by then they have already done something bad.
This was what I figured this stuff was more relevant to. I think a pretty simple 10 or so point list of things that are general rules around behavior would be needed for something like that, but the safety rules seems like such a nebulous term, it is almost a gotcha waiting to happen.
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:30:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 06:16:29 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"
I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.
Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself. [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card? [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use? [ pause ] Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"
Malicious compliance is a great reason for booting an asshole from the table.
The X-card tool itself is malicious. Nobody should feel bad about using the tool's own rules against it. I encourage anyone who has this put out in a convention game to just touch tap the card about every 15 or so minutes. Point out that you shouldn't have to explain why, but make up some sob story to explain why you tapped the card. The more melodramatic the better. If you find yourself at an X-card table just realize that your original hopes for a decent game were already lost. Now you might as well get your entertainment wrecking a Woke game, and maybe, just maybe you'll get one of the Woke to question their cult beliefs.
HappyDaze, your butt-hurt reaction just shows what a lame tool the X-card actually is, and that your afraid of just how easy it is to turn it on itself.
Any rule can be turned to bad ends, but it is your butt-hurt that is driving you to encourage others to do it here. Look at your post. You're encouraging people to go to games and disrupt other people's fun to prove some stupid point. Why are you the enemy of fun?
The X-card can be fine if everyone is using it in good faith. If someone is not, then it can also become an effective asshole detector. Ditch the asshole and get back to having a game with people that are trying to have fun.
I have never used them and consider them unnecessary for most settings. I do sometimes run grim-dark and horror-themed games and those require a bit of explanation before we start. I try to describe the types of things players might encounter and also mention a few things that I won't include in a game. Then they decide if they want to play or not. I'm not sure if that is considered a safety tool.
Only once have I had a player who was troubled by the content after we began the campaign. He did the right thing and quit the game without asking the rest of us to water it down. I'd be happy to have him back in a different campaign with a lighter setting.
I have also never been a player in a game with anything like X-cards, nor have I encountered anything in any game that made me feel like I needed that.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 07:26:38 PM
SHARK:
I'm going to say this once. I grew up around veterans. I grew up around active military. One of my uncles served in Vietnam. And I was the first person ever to thank him for his service genuinely.
I made him cry like a baby in doing so. Where he was finally able to open up and tell about the things he saw and did in the war. To say he saw action and lived the horror of war is understating things. And he is the first person to stand up and say he was no hero.
Your macho Marine act doesn't work on me.
Greetings!
Salute for your family members that served, Darrin Kelley.
As for my "macho Marine act" not "working on you"? WTF?
No act about it, Darrin Kelley. I didn't just spend time around veterans. I am a veteran. So, you do you, Darrin Kelley. There's no need to approach me with some kind of chip on your shoulder, man.
Have a nice day.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 07:26:38 PM
SHARK:
I'm going to say this once. I grew up around veterans. I grew up around active military. One of my uncles served in Vietnam. And I was the first person ever to thank him for his service genuinely.
I made him cry like a baby in doing so. Where he was finally able to open up and tell about the things he saw and did in the war. To say he saw action and lived the horror of war is understating things. And he is the first person to stand up and say he was no hero.
Your macho Marine act doesn't work on me. A real man, a real soldier, doesn't act like a child pretending to be an adult.
Greetings!
WHAT? Well, is that right, jackass? I didn't address you by name, so I don't know why you have sand in your pussy. I wasn't even thinking of you in any way, bitch. But since you want to insult me, fine. Get fucked.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 07:34:35 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:30:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 06:16:29 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"
I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.
Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself. [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card? [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use? [ pause ] Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"
Malicious compliance is a great reason for booting an asshole from the table.
The X-card tool itself is malicious. Nobody should feel bad about using the tool's own rules against it. I encourage anyone who has this put out in a convention game to just touch tap the card about every 15 or so minutes. Point out that you shouldn't have to explain why, but make up some sob story to explain why you tapped the card. The more melodramatic the better. If you find yourself at an X-card table just realize that your original hopes for a decent game were already lost. Now you might as well get your entertainment wrecking a Woke game, and maybe, just maybe you'll get one of the Woke to question their cult beliefs.
HappyDaze, your butt-hurt reaction just shows what a lame tool the X-card actually is, and that your afraid of just how easy it is to turn it on itself.
Any rule can be turned to bad ends, but it is your butt-hurt that is driving you to encourage others to do it here. Look at your post. You're encouraging people to go to games and disrupt other people's fun to prove some stupid point. Why are you the enemy of fun?
The X-card can be fine if everyone is using it in good faith. If someone is not, then it can also become an effective asshole detector. Ditch the asshole and get back to having a game with people that are trying to have fun.
How would you detect the asshole? The card can be tapped for any reason, and no explanation is required. If someone was doing this maliciously at a con game by the time you thought it was being done maliciously the game is already wrecked. You have to go through a process to kick someone out of a con game, and the asshole has pretty easy defenses to apply.
But here's a newsflash. Anyone and everyone interacting with the X-card is a malicious asshole. The person who sets up the game with an X-card is an asshole for introducing such a manipulative "tool" to the gaming table to begin with. Anyone tapping the X-card is an asshole for substituting an RPG for their own personal therapy session. I'll repeat that. People who "genuinely" tap the X-card are assholes. If they're going to somehow get weirded out by regular RPG play they're assholes for sitting themselves at a gaming table ready to disrupt play. There's no valid reason to tap the X-card. If you feel like you need to then get yourself some mental health care, but stop dragging everyone else's fun into your private issues. For the 1-in-a-thousand scenario where you wind up with a legitimate creep at the table that X-card was never going to do you any good anyway, and shame on the X-card advocates who fooled you into thinking the X-card would protect you.
It's a legitimately good thing to wreck the X-card concept.
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 07:54:15 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 07:34:35 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:30:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 06:16:29 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"
I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.
Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself. [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card? [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use? [ pause ] Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"
Malicious compliance is a great reason for booting an asshole from the table.
The X-card tool itself is malicious. Nobody should feel bad about using the tool's own rules against it. I encourage anyone who has this put out in a convention game to just touch tap the card about every 15 or so minutes. Point out that you shouldn't have to explain why, but make up some sob story to explain why you tapped the card. The more melodramatic the better. If you find yourself at an X-card table just realize that your original hopes for a decent game were already lost. Now you might as well get your entertainment wrecking a Woke game, and maybe, just maybe you'll get one of the Woke to question their cult beliefs.
HappyDaze, your butt-hurt reaction just shows what a lame tool the X-card actually is, and that your afraid of just how easy it is to turn it on itself.
Any rule can be turned to bad ends, but it is your butt-hurt that is driving you to encourage others to do it here. Look at your post. You're encouraging people to go to games and disrupt other people's fun to prove some stupid point. Why are you the enemy of fun?
The X-card can be fine if everyone is using it in good faith. If someone is not, then it can also become an effective asshole detector. Ditch the asshole and get back to having a game with people that are trying to have fun.
How would you detect the asshole? The card can be tapped for any reason, and no explanation is required. If someone was doing this maliciously at a con game by the time you thought it was being done maliciously the game is already wrecked. You have to go through a process to kick someone out of a con game, and the asshole has pretty easy defenses to apply.
But here's a newsflash. Anyone and everyone interacting with the X-card is a malicious asshole. The person who sets up the game with an X-card is an asshole for introducing such a manipulative "tool" to the gaming table to begin with. Anyone tapping the X-card is an asshole for substituting an RPG for their own personal
therapy session. I'll repeat that. People who "genuinely" tap the X-card are assholes. If they're going to somehow get weirded out by regular RPG play their assholes for sitting themselves at a gaming table ready to disrupt play. There's no valid reason to tap the X-card. If you feel like you need to get yourself some mental health, but stop dragging everyone else's fun into your private issues. For the 1-in-a-thousand scenario where you wind up with a legitimate creep at the table that X-card was never going to do you any good anyway, and shame of the X-card advocates who fooled you into thinking the X-card would protect you.
It's a legitimate good to wreck the X-card concept.
Greetings!
Outstanding, wmarshal! Very nice analysis. That is what I have always thought as well. People that support the "X-Card" are mentally damaged morons.
I think of them as weak bitch pussies. ;D
The whole "X-Card" thing is an SJW circlejerk rooted also in BDSM depravity.
These people are pathetic, and seek to further corrupt our hobby.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
"Safety tools" are an attempt to compensate for lack of maturity at the table. They're insufficient when there is a problem. They're pointless when there isn't. So, useless.
I don't mind BDSM in its place? I'm a big admirer of the Marquis de Sade. The feminist author Camille Paglia (a friend of Rush Limbaugh and a controversial figure herself) wrote about him as the intellectual counter to Rousseau, the guy who infests Progressive dogma.
(Rousseau and the noble savage, where man is born free and everywhere he is in chains? Therefore, society is to blame for all the ills of the common man, like burning looting and murdering is ultimately laid at the feet of the white majority for those who follow this line of thought.)
It's the civilized man of society that holds back the ravenous horde from oppressing the weak. It's not society's fault that the weak are oppressed (as Rousseau and his ilk believe). Sade's frankly pornographic stories are perversely brilliant statements about civil and uncivil behavior.
There's a place for it, in any case. It is depravity, but only the civilized person can truly recognize and appreciate depravity. (which is why I like the controversy out of Venger and Grim Jim even without knowing one word about them as individuals)
Not everyone has to agree, of course. There are some real dipshts who celebrate sadism in a superficial way, so I understand the revulsion.
It's part of a larger trend towards infantilizing people and attempting to force the broader group (whether that group is the table or the RPG hobby or society as a whole) to adhere to a new (and worse) set of norms.
It's appropriate to have certain taboo subjects. In my experience playing over the past few decades, the groups I've played in have always eschewed direct mention of violence against innocent women, children, animals, discussion of torture, extreme gore, cannibalism, and so on. No one has ever needed to explicitly spell out why these topics are to be treated lightly.
Ironically products I've seen from very "woke" companies have often been the worst offenders for this. Pathfinder products often feature these things quite explicitly, yet Paizo is one of the most politically charged producers of gaming content. I would never consider running Paizo products with children, women, or a new table where I'm not sure about the comfort levels of the players.
It is true that some groups of people don't treat this subject matter sensitively. When a player is uncomfortable with subject matter of a game, there's a mature way to voice concern, and an immature way. The reliance on specific tools rather than dialogue is actually the immature way. I don't think this is a huge faux pas, but only really healthy way to interact is to voice your concerns, not devising a system that attempts to automate interactions. Trying to automate this and remove the human element is itself pathological.
Some of my friends have particular issues with some things. Some players have phobias of creatures such as spiders, snakes, heights, and so on. Exposure to these things in games is pretty common and could be seen as part of exposure therapy to defuse these irrational fears.
For other types of issues: I had a family member die last year, and some of the events of our games made me feel upset. If it had pushed me a little bit further I would've spoken to our GM and explained the situation, and I'm sure he would've accommodated me.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with?
Absolutely... but I tend to do it pre-emptively. If I'm gaming online I always say the game is for 18s+ (even if it's not) and contains horror, and will have no modern safety tools.
Anyone that replies afterward is a pretty safe bet. They got the 'memo' and knew what was coming.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 06:48:42 PM
My personal movie ratings for my games run at a convention never went beyond PG. Conventions are a public place. So I treat them like it.
This is always a safe bet. It's just common sense and no safety tools are needed.
If I were to run a public game I'd do a PG thing too. Unless the convention had a place where mature players couldn't be disturbed (like a private room) and no kids were around to hear shit being said. Again, it's just applying a bit of common sense.
I don't play in public games anymore because of this sort of lunacy. As wmarshal mentioned, someone can totally ruin a game just by exploiting these "safety tools", intentionally or not.
It's why I only play with friends nowadays. Everyone gets pissed drunk, calls each other names, laughs about shit, and then wakes up the next day with a few cherished memories. Life goes on, everyone's happy.
Quote from: Mishihari on June 01, 2022, 09:01:24 PM
"Safety tools" are an attempt to compensate for lack of maturity at the table. They're insufficient when there is a problem. They're pointless when there isn't. So, useless.
Yes, either insufficient or unnecessary. There is a corollary to that fact, too: Those playing with them are pretending. They've gone from pretending to play with fire to pretending to getting burned. They've done it so long in their screwed up heads that they can't distinguish real fire from fake, and fake burns from real ones.
As someone else said on another forum (I can't remember who) and they totally hit the nail on the head - safety tools should be called player 'comfort tools'. Because that's all they effectively do. Make players feel fluffy. As there is no technical need for safety at an elfgame (beyond that of an age rating).
Quote from: Mishihari on June 01, 2022, 09:01:24 PM
"Safety tools" are an attempt to compensate for lack of maturity at the table. They're insufficient when there is a problem. They're pointless when there isn't. So, useless.
I was about to make almost the same point. cf. Adam Koebel. Even when such tools could potentially have helped, they weren't used.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 02, 2022, 07:34:59 AM
As someone else said on another forum (I can't remember who) and they totally hit the nail on the head - safety tools should be called player 'comfort tools'. Because that's all they effectively do. Make players feel fluffy. As there is no technical need for safety at an elfgame (beyond that of an age rating).
That was TristanEvans. My favorite alternate term to come out of that thread was "squid tools", not cuz it was better, but cuz I found it funny for some reason. Someone came up with an acronym for it at some point to make it work: Standardized Quick Incident De-escalation tools, or S.Q.U.I.D. Tools.
I don't like safety tools because it removes the responsibility from the player to the DM to make sure they are joining the right group. Apparently our hobby is filled with Aracnophobes. If I m running a campaign against Drow with spiders and similar allies it's on the player not the DM to not join the game.
Second many are flawed especially the x-card whose creator stubbornly refuses to fix let alone admit it's main failure especially its fans. Once an x-card is is played neither the player using it is obliged to say why the card was played not the other players or DM are allowed to ask. So an entire campaign can come to a crashing halt because of it. Yet the X-card has no major "flaws".
More importantly it shows to me that the individual helped now with society refuses to become an adult at least in mind. Both perhaps remain an child mentally. Such individuals usual end up being alone because one is not going to be able to play an x-card say when having a serious discussion with one wife or girlfriend or any other significant other.
Quote from: SHARK on June 01, 2022, 07:44:37 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 07:26:38 PM
SHARK:
I'm going to say this once. I grew up around veterans. I grew up around active military. One of my uncles served in Vietnam. And I was the first person ever to thank him for his service genuinely.
I made him cry like a baby in doing so. Where he was finally able to open up and tell about the things he saw and did in the war. To say he saw action and lived the horror of war is understating things. And he is the first person to stand up and say he was no hero.
Your macho Marine act doesn't work on me. A real man, a real soldier, doesn't act like a child pretending to be an adult.
Greetings!
WHAT? Well, is that right, jackass? I didn't address you by name, so I don't know why you have sand in your pussy. I wasn't even thinking of you in any way, bitch. But since you want to insult me, fine. Get fucked.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Thank you for your service, SHARK.
That post turned my stomach. To summarize, he didn't serve his country, but he was around people who did. But that's okay, he made one of them cry. He then took the opportunity to use the freedom you and so many others have provided to then question you as a man and a soldier. It might be the most fucked up thing I have seen somebody say around here.
I've had disagreements with many vets at the table over the years. And like any other section of the population, some were more reasonable than others. But it stopped at the table. And in this case, it should have stayed in the confines of context and a message board. Attacking someone's service is disgusting.
My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.
Under the logic of the x-card, I am not allowed to want that, maybe I am even an abuser for wanting that, if there is another player who wants to play in the campaign who does not want that. I just do not have any interest in playing in a game where anything can be retconned at any time by the fiat of any one player. I read a blog post once that argued that the only reason we need rules in RPGs is so that things that neither the referee nor the players want sometimes happen. That is a little extreme, but it gets at the point that I want the possibility of genuine pathos in an RPG, the possibility of Greek-style tragic happenings that nobody exactly wanted but that resulted from the players' choices anyway. I would say that this is one of the primary things I want out of an RPG.
Even worse are safety tools that allow for infinite rewinding, fast-forwarding, redoing, etc. In RPGs, what happens happens; it makes the rules pointless and ruins everything if I have a full suite of godlike powers to just decide what happens.
Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM
Even worse are safety tools that allow for infinite rewinding, fast-forwarding, redoing, etc. In RPGs, what happens happens; it makes the rules pointless and ruins everything if I have a full suite of godlike powers to just decide what happens.
This right here. This is a perfect example of why Safety tools are stupid. They go against everything that makes an RPG and RPG. Someone said it best on this thread, if you need to use safety tools to play an RPG, you probably shouldn't be playing an RPG.
Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM
My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.
If a make believe character dies, and the player has a panic attack, then player needs treatment not an x-card.
I had no idea what this stuff was, I thought you were talking about tools to help with calculations, to keep track of ever changing HPs and stuff. I looked it up. I feel shame for whoever came up with the idea, even more for whoever felt the need to use them.
Kids today need more cartoons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Hutch_the_Honeybee
Quote from: Abraxus on June 02, 2022, 08:18:25 AM
Second many are flawed especially the x-card whose creator stubbornly refuses to fix let alone admit it's main failure especially its fans. Once an x-card is is played neither the player using it is obliged to say why the card was played not the other players or DM are allowed to ask. So an entire campaign can come to a crashing halt because of it. Yet the X-card has no major "flaws".
The X-card would be worse if the player would be made to explain. It could turn the whole game into an impromptu and unprofessional therapy session. The X-card doesn't have a flaw that can be fixed as the X-card in and of itself is a completely and totally flawed tool in an rpg game. Maybe something like the X-card has a use in a legitimate therapy session, but the gaming table isn't it.
The way to go is to know your group, or if you're at a convention game keep it "PG" or lower, unless the game explicitly presents itself as possibly involving more disturbing elements. If you sign up for a game describing itself as "Shadowrunners investigating serial killings at a BDSM club" you don't get to claim to be surprised or triggered when there's graphic sexual violence in the game. That's you being an asshole for signing up for that game that you weren't going to be into to begin with.
If a gamemaster decides to spring that on you without warning the X-card wouldn't save you, even in the very unlikely event that that kind of gamemaster would have used the X-card. And if one did tap the X-card do you really want to get into a discussion with the everyone at the convention table how it's completely weird for the GM to take a session about the Scooby-Doo kids, and twist it into his own version on 7even? If you wind up in that 1-in-a-thousand train wreck just excuse yourself from the table and leave.
The X-card is worse than a comfort tool as mentioned before. At best it's a false comfort that will fail you when you need it. At worst it's bait for those who want to create the wrong kind emotional drama and harm at a table better handled on a therapist's couch.
I wouldn't be surprised if at some point a concept similar to the X-card is introduced to university courses. Someone finds the lecture on slavery in the antebellum south disconcerting, tap the X-card icon on your university provided app, and the professors class will be halted, and the relevant "safety teams" at the school will be instantly notified of the incident. Sounds crazy, but there are also teachers now that will only give a grade of F if the student scores 19% or less on an exam.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/jnswire/jns-media/3f/1f/11609874/american-history-sylabus-oprf.pdf
Quote from: VisionStorm on June 02, 2022, 07:53:43 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 02, 2022, 07:34:59 AM
As someone else said on another forum (I can't remember who) and they totally hit the nail on the head - safety tools should be called player 'comfort tools'. Because that's all they effectively do. Make players feel fluffy. As there is no technical need for safety at an elfgame (beyond that of an age rating).
That was TristanEvans. My favorite alternate term to come out of that thread was "squid tools", not cuz it was better, but cuz I found it funny for some reason. Someone came up with an acronym for it at some point to make it work: Standardized Quick Incident De-escalation tools, or S.Q.U.I.D. Tools.
Ah, I thought it was Tristan but I wasn't sure. So thanks for the clarification.
Hah... Squid tools.
The only other issue I have is that if one is not using them then by default the person must be misogynistic or (insert word)ist.
Screw that noise we have Session Zero just tell me what themes or subjects are taboo and they are. I'm not going to be treating a player like mental patient, I'm treating them like a (hopefully) mature adult. Don't like undead or freaked out by them then don't join a dam game of All Flesh Must be Eaten. Then Ask if the campaign can have less Zombies
Quote from: Abraxus on June 02, 2022, 11:10:30 AM
Don't like undead or freaked out by them then don't join a dam game of All Flesh Must be Eaten. Then Ask if the campaign can have less Zombies
If only these people could apply a bit of common sense. But...
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 02, 2022, 11:12:16 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on June 02, 2022, 11:10:30 AM
Don't like undead or freaked out by them then don't join a dam game of All Flesh Must be Eaten. Then Ask if the campaign can have less Zombies
If only these people could apply a bit of common sense. But...
Most definitely and they are able too.
The safety tools simply give them an excuse for bad behaviour. While I don't dislike the concept of being a Vegan as an Omnivore I'm not going to usually go to all Vegan dinner or not very often. If I do I can't rip the host a new one when he told me from the start what kind of food would be at the dinner.
Quote from: SHARK on June 01, 2022, 07:07:47 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
This does make me circle back to a key idea though. Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with? Time is a limited resource, pretty much the only one that once wasted can never be replenished, so I do not take chances on wasting it with people I have no idea about how they play or anything about them. Maybe there is a different feeling to playing consistently with strangers, but I honestly never need X cards, safety tools, or anything else because I am not going to play with people I have not vetted to some degree.
Greetings!
Exactly, Ogg!
Can you imagine playing with a group of Marines? Or a group of veterans and redneck girls?
Introducing "X-Cards" would get you mercilessly laughed at and ridiculed to no fucking end. ;D
I routinely keep my Marine K-Bar at my game table. Sometimes, my Glock .45 is nearby as well. My Glock .45 pistol is my ultimate "X-Card". ;D
I have a game table set up in one part of my garage, which also serves as a hobby table. Just feet away, are extensive work tables and a reloading bench. Lots of weapons and ammunition. Welcome to the "House of Guns!" ;D
I have one group of players that routinely smoke cigars, and bring whiskey to drink while playing. The girls smoke cigarettes. The room is often filled with people running their mouths with *no filters* whatsoever. Savage humour. Proclamations of conquest and ruthless violence abound. The hate flows like sweet syrup. Sexual humour, making fun of retards, expressing derision for cock-sucking pussy SJW's is absolutely routine. Guns, liquor, cigars and cigarettes. The men are men, and the women are women. No one is fucking "confused" about their fucking gender. Women actually like to fuck real men, and the men like to fuck real women. No one is confused or somehow opening their mouth with emotional diarrhea about "Gender Fluid" they are. It is also interesting how this group--and many others I have played with--never snivel and worry about the fucking Orcs being some oppressed minority, and them being victims of "White Supremacy" and "Colonialism". Drow Elves are wicked and evil, and should always be relentlessly exterminated.
Most monsters and traditionally evil humanoid races likewise are simply put to the sword, or cast into the great fire. Let their tortured cries and the smoke from their death be as a sweet incense to the Heavens!
Yeah, SJW's wouldn't be comfortable in such a group, for sure. Let them fucking REEE all they want. Most normal gamers will continue to gather together with like-minded, normal gamers, and play and enjoy the game properly, and not have the game corrupted by SJW pussy crybabies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Where do you live? This sounds like the table for me.
Quote from: Skullking on June 02, 2022, 09:02:45 AM
Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM
My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.
If a make believe character dies, and the player has a panic attack, then player needs treatment not an x-card.
Must... post...
(https://www.chick.com/images/tracts/0046/0046_03.gif?)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 03, 2022, 12:36:14 AM
Quote from: Skullking on June 02, 2022, 09:02:45 AM
Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM
My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.
If a make believe character dies, and the player has a panic attack, then player needs treatment not an x-card.
Must... post...
(https://www.chick.com/images/tracts/0046/0046_03.gif?)
My God, the Chick Tract was trying to warn us about these people almost 40 years ago!
Typically, for my own games, I don't tend to use any safety tools. There is one local convention that requires some sort of safety tool (Big Bad Con), but the tool can be as simple as an "Open Door Policy" where if a player is upset they are invited to leave the game with no judgement.
Still, I've played in about two dozen convention games with the X-card, and in my experience, it doesn't change things at all. It's an option that is explained at the beginning, but none of the players ever touch the X-card during play. I've also used the X-card three times when GMing a game that has it written into the rules (the game Bluebeard's Bride).
Particularly in the horror games like Bluebeard's Bride, there's been lots of terrible stuff happen including PCs tortured and killed. It just wasn't to the point that it ruined the fun of the game to the players.
Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM
My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.
Under the logic of the x-card, I am not allowed to want that
I don't know you, but I suspect that you also have lines about in-game content that would ruin the fun of the game for you, and that you don't want to happen. i.e. You want things that are upsetting up to a point, but if it goes too far it can make things bad. When I've discussed with players about lines, I've had some players who didn't want their characters raped, and others who didn't want children being abused or killed. I think a lot of players would have problems with children being raped, say.
Some people would say "Well, obviously that would be going too far" - but exactly where the line is between "dark fun" and "too dark" varies from player to player. One can address that line without using the X-card, certainly. But groups who use the X-card aren't saying that there can't be anything dark - just that there is a line where things can go too far.
Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.
Quote from: Persimmon on June 03, 2022, 12:12:00 AM
Quote from: SHARK on June 01, 2022, 07:07:47 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
This does make me circle back to a key idea though. Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with? Time is a limited resource, pretty much the only one that once wasted can never be replenished, so I do not take chances on wasting it with people I have no idea about how they play or anything about them. Maybe there is a different feeling to playing consistently with strangers, but I honestly never need X cards, safety tools, or anything else because I am not going to play with people I have not vetted to some degree.
Greetings!
Exactly, Ogg!
Can you imagine playing with a group of Marines? Or a group of veterans and redneck girls?
Introducing "X-Cards" would get you mercilessly laughed at and ridiculed to no fucking end. ;D
I routinely keep my Marine K-Bar at my game table. Sometimes, my Glock .45 is nearby as well. My Glock .45 pistol is my ultimate "X-Card". ;D
I have a game table set up in one part of my garage, which also serves as a hobby table. Just feet away, are extensive work tables and a reloading bench. Lots of weapons and ammunition. Welcome to the "House of Guns!" ;D
I have one group of players that routinely smoke cigars, and bring whiskey to drink while playing. The girls smoke cigarettes. The room is often filled with people running their mouths with *no filters* whatsoever. Savage humour. Proclamations of conquest and ruthless violence abound. The hate flows like sweet syrup. Sexual humour, making fun of retards, expressing derision for cock-sucking pussy SJW's is absolutely routine. Guns, liquor, cigars and cigarettes. The men are men, and the women are women. No one is fucking "confused" about their fucking gender. Women actually like to fuck real men, and the men like to fuck real women. No one is confused or somehow opening their mouth with emotional diarrhea about "Gender Fluid" they are. It is also interesting how this group--and many others I have played with--never snivel and worry about the fucking Orcs being some oppressed minority, and them being victims of "White Supremacy" and "Colonialism". Drow Elves are wicked and evil, and should always be relentlessly exterminated.
Most monsters and traditionally evil humanoid races likewise are simply put to the sword, or cast into the great fire. Let their tortured cries and the smoke from their death be as a sweet incense to the Heavens!
Yeah, SJW's wouldn't be comfortable in such a group, for sure. Let them fucking REEE all they want. Most normal gamers will continue to gather together with like-minded, normal gamers, and play and enjoy the game properly, and not have the game corrupted by SJW pussy crybabies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Where do you live? This sounds like the table for me.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Hey there, Persimmon! Outstanding! I'm glad to hear that you like my style! I'm up here in the red state of Idaho!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
One of the advantages of playing with an older group over a video stream, with kids running around in the background, is the content stays well and truly PG. Having played in games with players torturing, raping, and bellowing obscenities while 'roleplaying' it adds nothing to immersion. Quite the opposite. I find myself thinking what is wrong with this guy?
Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
I don't know you, but I suspect that you also have lines about in-game content that would ruin the fun of the game for you, and that you don't want to happen. i.e. You want things that are upsetting up to a point, but if it goes too far it can make things bad. When I've discussed with players about lines, I've had some players who didn't want their characters raped, and others who didn't want children being abused or killed. I think a lot of players would have problems with children being raped, say.
Some people would say "Well, obviously that would be going too far" - but exactly where the line is between "dark fun" and "too dark" varies from player to player. One can address that line without using the X-card, certainly. But groups who use the X-card aren't saying that there can't be anything dark - just that there is a line where things can go too far.
Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.
I'm willing to concede that "Lines and Veils" is a more reasonable safety tool than the x-card, since at least it's settled before the game starts. But I don't think we really needed a special name like Lines and Veils for the concept of establishing what the content in a game will be like beforehand, and I think the formalization of the concept is likely to lead to more anxiety for sensitive players rather than less, in much the same way we now know that trigger warnings do. And I reject the implication that each player has veto power over content ahead of time; they can ask if certain content can be avoided, but it should be perfectly acceptable for the GM to say no.
It would be a best practice for the GM to briefly describe what degree of torture, sexual assault, or violence against children might come up in his game, but it is ultimately up to the players to bring up anything they have a particular phobia of, with the understanding that if the GM says no, their only recourse is to simply not join that particular game.
Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AMTypically, for my own games, I don't tend to use any safety tools.
It's interesting to note that the VAST majority of people I've seen defend these "safety" tools almost invariably say that they don't use them, which really helps illustrate how much they're really needed.
Quote from: Plotinus on June 03, 2022, 07:21:41 AM
Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
I don't know you, but I suspect that you also have lines about in-game content that would ruin the fun of the game for you, and that you don't want to happen. i.e. You want things that are upsetting up to a point, but if it goes too far it can make things bad. When I've discussed with players about lines, I've had some players who didn't want their characters raped, and others who didn't want children being abused or killed. I think a lot of players would have problems with children being raped, say.
Some people would say "Well, obviously that would be going too far" - but exactly where the line is between "dark fun" and "too dark" varies from player to player. One can address that line without using the X-card, certainly. But groups who use the X-card aren't saying that there can't be anything dark - just that there is a line where things can go too far.
Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.
I'm willing to concede that "Lines and Veils" is a more reasonable safety tool than the x-card, since at least it's settled before the game starts. But I don't think we really needed a special name like Lines and Veils for the concept of establishing what the content in a game will be like beforehand, and I think the formalization of the concept is likely to lead to more anxiety for sensitive players rather than less, in much the same way we now know that trigger warnings do. And I reject the implication that each player has veto power over content ahead of time; they can ask if certain content can be avoided, but it should be perfectly acceptable for the GM to say no.
It would be a best practice for the GM to briefly describe what degree of torture, sexual assault, or violence against children might come up in his game, but it is ultimately up to the players to bring up anything they have a particular phobia of, with the understanding that if the GM says no, their only recourse is to simply not join that particular game.
Not only that, but discussing these things upfront and formalizing them as part of a process that has to be brought up in public events creates the impression that TTRPGs are activities where all manner of depravity are so rampant or likely enough to occur that they must be discussed before hand, just in case they would upset anyone. Which is not a good look and is likely to scare off some people, particularly parents who don't want their children exposed to sexual content, rape depictions or gruesome violence.
Imagine a nerdy GM bringing a woman new to gaming and asking her how she feels about her character being raped. The message that sends is that TTRPGs are cesspools of neckbeared men fantasizing about raping women.
Flat out tell anyone at my table:
1. We are all Adults, talk and treat each other as such
2. Very little is off limits, if it crosses a line, bring it up at the table for discussion or speak to one of the DM's about it
We've had a few topics that are big No No's in the game but they've been handled by adults acting like adults instead of backstabbing harpies nagging and sniping about things.
Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
Still, I've played in about two dozen convention games with the X-card, and in my experience, it doesn't change things at all.
...
Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.
With all due respect, there's no way to know this. You cannot know what behavior, good or bad, was prevented by the X card.
Did someone push the limits because the X card was there and nobody tapped it? Impossible to know without follow up discussion.
Did someone refrain from pushing the limits because of the X card? Again, impossible to know without discussion.
I'm pointing this out because it seems like you're taking the opinion that the X card is fine because it normally does nothing and, ultimately, once in a blue moon it could be helpful to someone somewhere.
This argument is trotted out by X card zealots: It may help someone somewhere in some timeline and it costs you nothing, so why not just use it?
To which the answer is: Wearing a helmet in public increases safety and could save your life. The cost is minimal compared to brain damage and medical bills. Everyone should wear a helmet everywhere. Yet we don't. It's not about cost; it's about respect. Wearing a helmet everywhere is disrespectful to yourself as a human being. Plopping an X card on the table is disrespectful to your fellow gamers at the table. When you sit down at a table with an X card you are implicitly agreeing that you cannot be trusted to be respectful of your fellow humans.
Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.
It's not really needed then if that's the case.
Quote from: Plotinus on June 03, 2022, 07:21:41 AM
Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
I don't know you, but I suspect that you also have lines about in-game content that would ruin the fun of the game for you, and that you don't want to happen. i.e. You want things that are upsetting up to a point, but if it goes too far it can make things bad. When I've discussed with players about lines, I've had some players who didn't want their characters raped, and others who didn't want children being abused or killed. I think a lot of players would have problems with children being raped, say.
I'm willing to concede that "Lines and Veils" is a more reasonable safety tool than the x-card, since at least it's settled before the game starts. But I don't think we really needed a special name like Lines and Veils for the concept of establishing what the content in a game will be like beforehand, and I think the formalization of the concept is likely to lead to more anxiety for sensitive players rather than less, in much the same way we now know that trigger warnings do.
In my RPG experience, plans at game start never actually turn out the way they were intended - and I'd expect that's true of "Lines and Veils" as well. People will forget things, or their emotional reactions will be different than they expect, etc. Someone might think they want to go super dark, but then find later feel that it's too far.
I'm not particularly advocating for any formal or informal approach to these issues. I'm generally informal about it.
It's more that I think some posters are giving a false impression of what groups playing with safety tools like the X-card are like. From my experience at conventions, games with the X-card are largely indistinguishable from those without, except for two minutes at the beginning explaining it. I've played and run horror games with lots of very dark content in them while using the X-card.
Quote from: Plotinus on June 03, 2022, 07:21:41 AM
And I reject the implication that each player has veto power over content ahead of time; they can ask if certain content can be avoided, but it should be perfectly acceptable for the GM to say no.
In my experience, this case is rare enough that I don't think it makes a significant difference either way. I've almost always been able to have fun with players within their genuine limits. At least in my home games, I play with friends and if someone can't have fun, we'll play something else instead.
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 03, 2022, 03:43:12 PM
To which the answer is: Wearing a helmet in public increases safety and could save your life. The cost is minimal compared to brain damage and medical bills. Everyone should wear a helmet everywhere. Yet we don't. It's not about cost; it's about respect. Wearing a helmet everywhere is disrespectful to yourself as a human being. Plopping an X card on the table is disrespectful to your fellow gamers at the table. When you sit down at a table with an X card you are implicitly agreeing that you cannot be trusted to be respectful of your fellow humans.
And yet if you hurt your head you could suffer a lot of damage, even die. If you hurt your feelings, so ducking what?
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 03, 2022, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
Still, I've played in about two dozen convention games with the X-card, and in my experience, it doesn't change things at all.
...
Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.
With all due respect, there's no way to know this. You cannot know what behavior, good or bad, was prevented by the X card.
Did someone push the limits because the X card was there and nobody tapped it? Impossible to know without follow up discussion.
Did someone refrain from pushing the limits because of the X card? Again, impossible to know without discussion.
I'm pointing this out because it seems like you're taking the opinion that the X card is fine because it normally does nothing and, ultimately, once in a blue moon it could be helpful to someone somewhere.
I'm not saying that the X card is either good or bad. I'm saying that it doesn't have as huge an effect as some posters are implying, in either direction.
Maybe it has subtle effects on game behavior, and maybe it has a big effect once in a blue moon -- but many of the arguments around it seem to assume effects larger than I've seen. Maybe once in a blue moon it ruins the game, and maybe when it is invoked, it doesn't actually help the person. In that case, it's bad. But I can't conclude either way from what I've seen. I'm not a psychologist, and I have no opinion on the healthiness of its use.
I'd make similar arguments to someone who insisted that the X card was necessary.
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 03, 2022, 03:43:12 PM
Plopping an X card on the table is disrespectful to your fellow gamers at the table. When you sit down at a table with an X card you are implicitly agreeing that you cannot be trusted to be respectful of your fellow humans.
I don't feel that I'm being disrespected, but I can see that is a personal thing. If you feel disrespected, then speak up about it. Personally, I can't relate to either "I can't play unless there's an X card" or "I can't play because there's an X card". But to each their own.
Personally, I have trouble picking up the dice when I'm wearing kevlar work gloves. And sometimes the safety goggles fog up. One thing I could go for, though, might be something like little rubber nubs that securely fasten to the corners of d4's. That would make them a little safer when stepped on, but I think it would also give the dice a little extra bounce when rolled. When the d4 falls flat on the table, sometimes it feels like it hasn't been sufficiently randomized. I think rubber nubs would fix that.
Quote from: Plotinus on June 03, 2022, 07:21:41 AM
I reject the implication that each player has veto power over content ahead of time; they can ask if certain content can be avoided, but it should be perfectly acceptable for the GM to say no.
Yes indeed... Once you set out your stall for the game and the players know the age rating and type of game it is, etc. If they then proceed to join the game it's tough tits as far as I'm concerned as they got the memo and consented to play. Also, they can leave the game at any time.
I'm not going to alter a game just for someone's 'comfort' at the expense of everyone else's fun.
Back in the day when people saw horror films that upset them they up and leave the cinema. There wasn't some huge x-button built into the seats to FF all the scary bits.
I believe every convention should have a door with a sign labeled "Safe Space" on it. Said door should lead to a garbage-strewn alley behind the convention site. There should be no way to open it from the outside.
My view is: That they are totally unnecessary for an experienced group. And conventions already the requirements for running games there in the first place.
So I find these tools to be pointless.
I read Safety Tools and thought this thread was about rock-climbing in RPGs or something. Civilized society is all the safety tools you need.
True, but then there are those that try to change the meaning of the words. Breaking the understanding and trust.
Just for fun since I have poor impulse control...
I can think of several reasons why a table would need safety tools... and all them make me feel uncomfortable in ways the tools cannot address.
I mean this quite seriously. You usually don't need a bungie cord if you're not bungie jumping, and you don't need these safety tools unless you're going to be engaging in something (extreme content, heavy-handed virtue signalling, playing with people who are complete pieces of shit) that I don't want any part of to begin with. Safety tools are a huge red flag.
Never heard of them before I saw this thread. Never needed them and don't expect to need them. In general, there's kind of an unspoken rule in my games: "don't be an asshole (which includes don't be creepy)." Normally I don't need to explain this to anyone. If I do, then there's a big question about them remaining in the game in the future. I don't game with people unless I enjoy their company.
I've never used them and I never will. If I join a gaming group and they want to use them, I'll politely excuse myself and tell them the group isn't for me. My reasons aren't any different from whats already been elucidated here. It's a game played in your imagination, nothing can actually hurt you. If someone needs safety tools for the imagination, I don't want to spend even a few hours creating an imaginary experience with that person. Maybe if I had more free time or less people to game with I would feel differently, but I doubt it.
I generally just game with my friends and I don't enjoy gaming with strangers that much, so safety tools don't come up. But if they did, that would be my response. I've played Little Fears multiple times and enjoyed it, so there's not much that you could throw at me in game that would cause me to think "this is too much".
And I second that Shark's gaming group sounds awesome. But everyone else should stop using the word soldier to refer to United States Marines. Marines are not soldiers, they're marines. I assume he's been too polite to correct everyone, or he just hears it so often that he ignores it.
The only time I have had to implement the use of what would be called safety tools was in a game of The End of The World I was GMing. Ironically this was with a very experienced group of married men with families, all of them at least 15 years older than me, and none what you'd call snow flakes or woke.
In End of the World you play a rpg version of yourself trying to survive the apocalypse (Zombies, Aliens whatever) though you don't actually know the scenario. The bit which freaked the players out was the slightest hint that their children could be in danger. I'd already established thst anyone could die and it became pretty obvious that this wasn't really the escapism they had signed up to. So we had a bit of a discussion and I dialled the horror side of things down a bit and made sure families at least were off screen.
Taught me a valuable lesson that everyone has some line or other that will freak them out. So no I don't generally use safety tools but I don't scoff at them like I used to.
I thought we all had the basic skill of differentiating fiction from reality.
Quote from: Hellfire on June 07, 2022, 08:29:04 PM
I thought we all had the basic skill of differentiating fiction from reality.
Not quite everyone sadly...
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 01:42:04 PM
I know my opinion on RPG safety tools. I want yours!
I want to see what people have to say on the topic.
What in the hell are you talking about?
Do people suddenly need pads or safety helmets to roll dice at a table?
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on June 07, 2022, 11:31:22 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 01:42:04 PM
I know my opinion on RPG safety tools. I want yours!
I want to see what people have to say on the topic.
What in the hell are you talking about?
Do people suddenly need pads or safety helmets to roll dice at a table?
- Ed C.
Didn't you get the memo? We now let everyone play TTRPGs including people who are unable to process a distinction between reality and fantasy. Scenarios that elicit negative emotions cause grave physical harm. Etc.... ::)
Pardon me if I don't follow every strange trend, but what are these safety tool you speak of? I'm getting a TBP vibe, which is making me feel antipathy towards the idea.
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 08, 2022, 08:19:09 AM
Pardon me if I don't follow every strange trend, but what are these safety tool you speak of? I'm getting a TBP vibe, which is making me feel antipathy towards the idea.
It's a solution in search of a problem and really took off when MCG published this garbage: https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/consent-in-gaming/ (https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/consent-in-gaming/)
The only thing anyone needs to know from that document is this common sense item.
Quote• Anyone is allowed to leave an uncomfortable situation at any time.
If you can't handle the scenario, you are free to leave the table.
Well, a real safety tool wouldn't scratch the itch that the proponents of the typical safety tools want scratched, which is the pretense of virtue instead of actually doing something useful.
Here's a "safety tool" that would be meaningful that you could put in your game if you thought your audience was too dense to figure it out for themselves: "An RPG session is a terrible place to practice amateur therapy. It should not be so practiced under any circumstances, period. If you find yourself starting down that road, stop immediately. If a participant is determined to engage in the session in that way, stop them. If they will not stop, end the session, get whatever help is deemed appropriate, and then resume at a later time. Note that what is usually appropriate is to eject the offender--with whatever caveats you would use in any other social situation--taking into account the relationship with the one acting out, their age, controlled substances affecting their behavior, etc."
In that way, it's really no different than handling a disturbance at a party. Some person a little more "relaxed" than is exactly acceptable is likely to be handled by asking them to tone it down. As it escalates, so does the response. Someone showing up "off their meds" is not likely to go well.
If a person really needs help, and you really want to help them, do that. Don't hand them a token and act like you did anything useful.
Thanks for the answers. It was what I was kind of guessing.
Quote from: Palleon on June 08, 2022, 08:26:35 AM
Quote from: Battlemaster on June 08, 2022, 08:19:09 AM
Pardon me if I don't follow every strange trend, but what are these safety tool you speak of? I'm getting a TBP vibe, which is making me feel antipathy towards the idea.
It's a solution in search of a problem and really took off when MCG published this garbage: https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/consent-in-gaming/ (https://www.montecookgames.com/store/product/consent-in-gaming/)
The only thing anyone needs to know from that document is this common sense item.
Quote• Anyone is allowed to leave an uncomfortable situation at any time.
If you can't handle the scenario, you are free to leave the table.
Greetings!
Yeah, Palleon!
I'm also reminded how the concept of "Safety Tools" is largely inspired by customs embraced by those that engage in BDSM lifestyles. For them, using various "safe words" and codes and tools and whatever in their search for sexual fulfillment is typical.
Safety Tools are more pycho-linguistic bullshit embraced by the Liberals.
As many have mentioned, "Safety Tools"--if such a person sincerely believes that they are so psychologically fragile, emotionally damaged, and mentally weak, that they need such safety tools as stipulated for gaming--then they really should not be playing TTRPG's. They need to be in a straight jacket and confined to an insane asylum, or at least enrolling in regular, strict, medical and psychological care.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Safety tools allow adults with the maturity of children to remain so. Made worse with Social Media where when dad adult children are told no they go on a rant because (gasp) they took a race that has an evil reputation. With evil DM enforcing negative penalties about their race (the evil bastard!) and unlike Twitter won't give them what they want.
It's almost as bad as the player who drew a bugbear in a dress in braids with a sad and perpetually depressed look on its face.
Again - what the effing Hell??
Just play the damn game!
- Ed C.
It's kind of sad how many Re-tweets appear in my feed where " I took an evil race/race with a certain reputation and the DM refuses to remove any penalties. What an evil (insert word)ist person they are". Followed the masturbatory circle jerk of people agreeing. Its like no self awareness imo. If you insist on playing certain races with negative reputation or penalties don't join the damn game.
Apparently the DM game their rules does not apply anymore. They dared to get told no or find a DM who cater to every whim so by default the DM is a bad person. Usually followed by myself blocking or muting that persons tweet. Nothing of an actual true value is lost.
Quote from: Abraxus on June 09, 2022, 08:07:27 AM
It's kind of sad how many Re-tweets appear in my feed where " I took an evil race/race with a certain reputation and the DM refuses to remove any penalties. What an evil (insert word)ist person they are". Followed the masturbatory circle jerk of people agreeing. Its like no self awareness imo. If you insist on playing certain races with negative reputation or penalties don't join the damn game.
If I were running the game and one of my players came at me with that crap they would be gonzo in a flash. I wouldn't put up with a player like that.
And if it's D&D 5th edition, there are tons of players looking for a game so they would be replaceable in no time.
I have a box of steel-tipped lawn darts from the time before they were made illegal. They didn't include any safety tools...coincidence?
Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
This does make me circle back to a key idea though. Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with? Time is a limited resource, pretty much the only one that once wasted can never be replenished, so I do not take chances on wasting it with people I have no idea about how they play or anything about them. Maybe there is a different feeling to playing consistently with strangers, but I honestly never need X cards, safety tools, or anything else because I am not going to play with people I have not vetted to some degree.
This is practically impossible to do at a convention game. Which is where I have seen the x-card used.
For private games between friends, the x-card has never once been used, in my experience.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 09, 2022, 10:18:30 AM
I have a box of steel-tipped lawn darts from the time before they were made illegal. They didn't include any safety tools...coincidence?
A product of a different time.
Quote from: pdboddy on June 10, 2022, 08:35:38 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 09, 2022, 10:18:30 AM
I have a box of steel-tipped lawn darts from the time before they were made illegal. They didn't include any safety tools...coincidence?
A product of a different time.
Back then unless one was drunk or a complete idiot or simply a magnet for bad luck, they assumed one would be careful to not stab each other with Jarts.
Today not only does a giant flashing neon sign need to be put over a live minefield it's someone else fault when they walk into said mine field.
Quote from: Abraxus on June 09, 2022, 08:07:27 AM
It's kind of sad how many Re-tweets appear in my feed where " I took an evil race/race with a certain reputation and the DM refuses to remove any penalties. What an evil (insert word)ist person they are". Followed the masturbatory circle jerk of people agreeing. Its like no self awareness imo. If you insist on playing certain races with negative reputation or penalties don't join the damn game.
Apparently the DM game their rules does not apply anymore. They dared to get told no or find a DM who cater to every whim so by default the DM is a bad person.
I don't recruit via Twitter, so I don't see many of these, but I've had a handful of difficult types show up at my conventions games. I had a player walk out of a Hero System game because he didn't like how I handled some equipment in a game, and they walked out when I didn't address this.
However, I haven't had anyone like this in twenty or so convention games that I've played that used the X-card. I can see it could be a problem to put together such players and safety tools - but it doesn't appear to be the norm that anyone who uses any safety tools is such a player.
It's a shame the x-card doesn't work on some of the rather unsavory professionals.
I've invented the Y Card.
If someone taps the X Card, you can tap the Y Card. It means "Why did you do that?"
Then they can tap the B Card. It means "Because I felt uncomfortable."
Then you can tap the D Card to mean "Deal with it."
It's an entire tap-based communications protocol for people who don't like to socialize. The best part: It's not limited to gaming! Bring it to the pub or the lunchroom! You never know when uncomfortable topics might come up. It's best to be safe!
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 10, 2022, 03:21:03 PM
I've invented the Y Card.
If someone taps the X Card, you can tap the Y Card. It means "Why did you do that?"
Then they can tap the B Card. It means "Because I felt uncomfortable."
Then you can tap the D Card to mean "Deal with it."
It's an entire tap-based communications protocol for people who don't like to socialize. The best part: It's not limited to gaming! Bring it to the pub or the lunchroom! You never know when uncomfortable topics might come up. It's best to be safe!
They'll just double down on the X card again, and if you think your XY argument is going to beat their XX argument then your game is goes well beyond most people's suspension of disbelief.
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 10, 2022, 04:19:54 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 10, 2022, 03:21:03 PM
I've invented the Y Card.
If someone taps the X Card, you can tap the Y Card. It means "Why did you do that?"
Then they can tap the B Card. It means "Because I felt uncomfortable."
Then you can tap the D Card to mean "Deal with it."
It's an entire tap-based communications protocol for people who don't like to socialize. The best part: It's not limited to gaming! Bring it to the pub or the lunchroom! You never know when uncomfortable topics might come up. It's best to be safe!
They'll just double down on the X card again, and if you think your XY argument is going to beat their XX argument then your game is goes well beyond most people's suspension of disbelief.
But can you define which of those cards is a woman.
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 10, 2022, 03:21:03 PM
I've invented the Y Card.
If someone taps the X Card, you can tap the Y Card. It means "Why did you do that?"
Then they can tap the B Card. It means "Because I felt uncomfortable."
Then you can tap the D Card to mean "Deal with it."
It's an entire tap-based communications protocol for people who don't like to socialize. The best part: It's not limited to gaming! Bring it to the pub or the lunchroom! You never know when uncomfortable topics might come up. It's best to be safe!
:o
*furiously thinking of classic video game combos that could stand for acronyms of conversation*
"Must. find. way. to squeeze. NES Contra. 30 lives. code. into. conversation!" /Xplodes
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 10, 2022, 04:19:54 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 10, 2022, 03:21:03 PM
I've invented the Y Card.
If someone taps the X Card, you can tap the Y Card. It means "Why did you do that?"
Then they can tap the B Card. It means "Because I felt uncomfortable."
Then you can tap the D Card to mean "Deal with it."
It's an entire tap-based communications protocol for people who don't like to socialize. The best part: It's not limited to gaming! Bring it to the pub or the lunchroom! You never know when uncomfortable topics might come up. It's best to be safe!
They'll just double down on the X card again, and if you think your XY argument is going to beat their XX argument then your game is goes well beyond most people's suspension of disbelief.
If they do go back to tapping the X card (I doub it, they would just throw a hissy fit and stomp out) then you just go back to the D card.
I have improved the system, add the G card (Go fuck yourself), just in case someone doesn't throw a hissy fit and does tap the X card a second time. If you don't want to be crass switch the G for a P (Pound sand) or a K (Kick rocks).
To think people actually use these "tools." Man, shit's fucked up!
Want them at my table, go fuck yourself.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on June 12, 2022, 08:58:03 PM
Want them at my table, go fuck yourself.
Yup...
Don't waste your time playing with emotional babies who can't handle an imaginary elfgame.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 11, 2022, 12:06:59 PM
I have improved the system, add the G card (Go fuck yourself), just in case someone doesn't throw a hissy fit and does tap the X card a second time. If you don't want to be crass switch the G for a P (Pound sand) or a K (Kick rocks).
G for Get Lost also works. I suggest the G be placed on the reverse of X. If the X card is tapped, it gets flipped over and the GM taps the G card to eject the maladjusted player.
Does carrying a firearm, open or concealed, at the table count as a safety tool?
My view of these safety tools is that they are absolutely unnecessary. They don't actually help the situation at all and they just give more opportunity for people who wanted to disrupt games to disrupt the games.
I wouldn't even call them safety tools. Because they do not guarantee anyone's safety. They give more opportunity for people who troll the games to troll the games. And quite frankly they're unnecessary by the rules put out by most conventions anyway. They are absolutely redundant when compared to the rules for running games at conventions in the first place.
The main problem that got me banned from another place for talking about this subject was the fact that someone was insisting that these so-called safety tools be instituted as a requirement for gaming at conventions. That anyone running a game be required to use these safety tools regardless of their own desires or experiences or precautions.
Instead I got yelled at by a self-righteous piece of trash that said that the GM doesn't have a right to determine what it is the safety of the people in their group when the GM is actually the administrator of the group. It's a contradiction that was glittering to me and I absolutely believe and believed that it was wrong.
The fact is that I already signed a contract when I'm running games at a convention for specific content specific methods specific approaches and specific resolution to problems. I don't need some armchair intellectual trying to tell me how to run my games when it's already been now working just fine without any problems whatsoever.
So in my view they can take these safety tools and stick them where the sun don't shine.
As for their appearance in the Fate Accessibility Toolkit well they were out of place utterly out of place they had nothing to do with the enabling the disabled to enjoy gaming too. They also did nothing about integrating disability when it comes to characters in the game to being something that is manageable by a GM and the rest of the group. Instead they took up valuable space that could have been used for explaining how to keep a disability from taking over a game group and becoming the prime subject.
It is so great that the SJW cult has helped us poor helpless disabled people. By making things worse for us.
Because they always do.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 13, 2022, 01:34:38 AM
The main problem that got me banned from another place for talking about this subject was the fact that someone was insisting that these so-called safety tools be instituted as a requirement for gaming at conventions. That anyone running a game be required to use these safety tools regardless of their own desires or experiences or precautions.
It's one big virtue signaling clusterfuck. The weak-willed signal their virtue by cluttering their tables with "safety tools." The assholes signal their virtue by forcing the weak-willed to do this. The tools themselves are redundant or stupid.
Quote from: Omega on June 13, 2022, 05:33:57 PM
It is so great that the SJW cult has helped us poor helpless disabled people. By making things worse for us.
Because they always do.
Yep, SJWs are more interested in appearing virtuous than actually helping people that need help.
Real help is getting the guy in the wheelchair up the stairs into the game room and making no fuss about it (seen it). SJWs will make all the fuss and do nothing.
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 13, 2022, 06:01:57 PM
Real help is getting the guy in the wheelchair up the stairs into the game room and making no fuss about it (seen it). SJWs will make all the fuss and do nothing.
Exactly this.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 13, 2022, 06:09:45 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on June 13, 2022, 06:01:57 PM
Real help is getting the guy in the wheelchair up the stairs into the game room and making no fuss about it (seen it). SJWs will make all the fuss and do nothing.
Exactly this.
Very. They always talk big. But the reality is all they do is make things worse for us. They rile people up. Which makes us look bad. They attack people in our name. Which makes us look bad. They make demands for us. Which makes us look bad.
They treat us worse than the things they claim we are "suffering" under. They have never helped a single person except by accident. And they probably fucked that up too.
But they sure love to point at people actually out there doing something and claim that was one of them.