Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
I don't know you, but I suspect that you also have lines about in-game content that would ruin the fun of the game for you, and that you don't want to happen. i.e. You want things that are upsetting up to a point, but if it goes too far it can make things bad. When I've discussed with players about lines, I've had some players who didn't want their characters raped, and others who didn't want children being abused or killed. I think a lot of players would have problems with children being raped, say.

Some people would say "Well, obviously that would be going too far" - but exactly where the line is between "dark fun" and "too dark" varies from player to player. One can address that line without using the X-card, certainly. But groups who use the X-card aren't saying that there can't be anything dark - just that there is a line where things can go too far.

Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.

I'm willing to concede that "Lines and Veils" is a more reasonable safety tool than the x-card, since at least it's settled before the game starts. But I don't think we really needed a special name like Lines and Veils for the concept of establishing what the content in a game will be like beforehand, and I think the formalization of the concept is likely to lead to more anxiety for sensitive players rather than less, in much the same way we now know that trigger warnings do. And I reject the implication that each player has veto power over content ahead of time; they can ask if certain content can be avoided, but it should be perfectly acceptable for the GM to say no.

It would be a best practice for the GM to briefly describe what degree of torture, sexual assault, or violence against children might come up in his game, but it is ultimately up to the players to bring up anything they have a particular phobia of, with the understanding that if the GM says no, their only recourse is to simply not join that particular game.

Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AMTypically, for my own games, I don't tend to use any safety tools.

It's interesting to note that the VAST majority of people I've seen defend these "safety" tools almost invariably say that they don't use them, which really helps illustrate how much they're really needed.

Quote from: Plotinus on June 03, 2022, 07:21:41 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
I don't know you, but I suspect that you also have lines about in-game content that would ruin the fun of the game for you, and that you don't want to happen. i.e. You want things that are upsetting up to a point, but if it goes too far it can make things bad. When I've discussed with players about lines, I've had some players who didn't want their characters raped, and others who didn't want children being abused or killed. I think a lot of players would have problems with children being raped, say.

Some people would say "Well, obviously that would be going too far" - but exactly where the line is between "dark fun" and "too dark" varies from player to player. One can address that line without using the X-card, certainly. But groups who use the X-card aren't saying that there can't be anything dark - just that there is a line where things can go too far.

Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.

I'm willing to concede that "Lines and Veils" is a more reasonable safety tool than the x-card, since at least it's settled before the game starts. But I don't think we really needed a special name like Lines and Veils for the concept of establishing what the content in a game will be like beforehand, and I think the formalization of the concept is likely to lead to more anxiety for sensitive players rather than less, in much the same way we now know that trigger warnings do. And I reject the implication that each player has veto power over content ahead of time; they can ask if certain content can be avoided, but it should be perfectly acceptable for the GM to say no.

It would be a best practice for the GM to briefly describe what degree of torture, sexual assault, or violence against children might come up in his game, but it is ultimately up to the players to bring up anything they have a particular phobia of, with the understanding that if the GM says no, their only recourse is to simply not join that particular game.

Not only that, but discussing these things upfront and formalizing them as part of a process that has to be brought up in public events creates the impression that TTRPGs are activities where all manner of depravity are so rampant or likely enough to occur that they must be discussed before hand, just in case they would upset anyone. Which is not a good look and is likely to scare off some people, particularly parents who don't want their children exposed to sexual content, rape depictions or gruesome violence.

Imagine a nerdy GM bringing a woman new to gaming and asking her how she feels about her character being raped. The message that sends is that TTRPGs are cesspools of neckbeared men fantasizing about raping women.

Flat out tell anyone at my table:

1. We are all Adults, talk and treat each other as such
2. Very little is off limits, if it crosses a line, bring it up at the table for discussion or speak to one of the DM's about it

We've had a few topics that are big No No's in the game but they've been handled by adults acting like adults instead of backstabbing harpies nagging and sniping about things.

Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
Still, I've played in about two dozen convention games with the X-card, and in my experience, it doesn't change things at all.
...
Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.

With all due respect, there's no way to know this. You cannot know what behavior, good or bad, was prevented by the X card.

Did someone push the limits because the X card was there and nobody tapped it? Impossible to know without follow up discussion.

Did someone refrain from pushing the limits because of the X card? Again, impossible to know without discussion.

I'm pointing this out because it seems like you're taking the opinion that the X card is fine because it normally does nothing and, ultimately, once in a blue moon it could be helpful to someone somewhere.

This argument is trotted out by X card zealots: It may help someone somewhere in some timeline and it costs you nothing, so why not just use it?

To which the answer is: Wearing a helmet in public increases safety and could save your life. The cost is minimal compared to brain damage and medical bills. Everyone should wear a helmet everywhere. Yet we don't. It's not about cost; it's about respect. Wearing a helmet everywhere is disrespectful to yourself as a human being. Plopping an X card on the table is disrespectful to your fellow gamers at the table. When you sit down at a table with an X card you are implicitly agreeing that you cannot be trusted to be respectful of your fellow humans.

Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.

It's not really needed then if that's the case.

Quote from: Plotinus on June 03, 2022, 07:21:41 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
I don't know you, but I suspect that you also have lines about in-game content that would ruin the fun of the game for you, and that you don't want to happen. i.e. You want things that are upsetting up to a point, but if it goes too far it can make things bad. When I've discussed with players about lines, I've had some players who didn't want their characters raped, and others who didn't want children being abused or killed. I think a lot of players would have problems with children being raped, say.

I'm willing to concede that "Lines and Veils" is a more reasonable safety tool than the x-card, since at least it's settled before the game starts. But I don't think we really needed a special name like Lines and Veils for the concept of establishing what the content in a game will be like beforehand, and I think the formalization of the concept is likely to lead to more anxiety for sensitive players rather than less, in much the same way we now know that trigger warnings do.

In my RPG experience, plans at game start never actually turn out the way they were intended - and I'd expect that's true of "Lines and Veils" as well. People will forget things, or their emotional reactions will be different than they expect, etc. Someone might think they want to go super dark, but then find later feel that it's too far.

I'm not particularly advocating for any formal or informal approach to these issues. I'm generally informal about it.

It's more that I think some posters are giving a false impression of what groups playing with safety tools like the X-card are like. From my experience at conventions, games with the X-card are largely indistinguishable from those without, except for two minutes at the beginning explaining it. I've played and run horror games with lots of very dark content in them while using the X-card.

Quote from: Plotinus on June 03, 2022, 07:21:41 AM
And I reject the implication that each player has veto power over content ahead of time; they can ask if certain content can be avoided, but it should be perfectly acceptable for the GM to say no.

In my experience, this case is rare enough that I don't think it makes a significant difference either way. I've almost always been able to have fun with players within their genuine limits. At least in my home games, I play with friends and if someone can't have fun, we'll play something else instead.

Quote from: rytrasmi on June 03, 2022, 03:43:12 PM
To which the answer is: Wearing a helmet in public increases safety and could save your life. The cost is minimal compared to brain damage and medical bills. Everyone should wear a helmet everywhere. Yet we don't. It's not about cost; it's about respect. Wearing a helmet everywhere is disrespectful to yourself as a human being. Plopping an X card on the table is disrespectful to your fellow gamers at the table. When you sit down at a table with an X card you are implicitly agreeing that you cannot be trusted to be respectful of your fellow humans.

And yet if you hurt your head you could suffer a lot of damage, even die. If you hurt your feelings, so ducking what?

Quote from: rytrasmi on June 03, 2022, 03:43:12 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 03, 2022, 02:43:57 AM
Still, I've played in about two dozen convention games with the X-card, and in my experience, it doesn't change things at all.
...
Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.

With all due respect, there's no way to know this. You cannot know what behavior, good or bad, was prevented by the X card.

Did someone push the limits because the X card was there and nobody tapped it? Impossible to know without follow up discussion.

Did someone refrain from pushing the limits because of the X card? Again, impossible to know without discussion.

I'm pointing this out because it seems like you're taking the opinion that the X card is fine because it normally does nothing and, ultimately, once in a blue moon it could be helpful to someone somewhere.

I'm not saying that the X card is either good or bad. I'm saying that it doesn't have as huge an effect as some posters are implying, in either direction.

Maybe it has subtle effects on game behavior, and maybe it has a big effect once in a blue moon -- but many of the arguments around it seem to assume effects larger than I've seen. Maybe once in a blue moon it ruins the game, and maybe when it is invoked, it doesn't actually help the person. In that case, it's bad. But I can't conclude either way from what I've seen. I'm not a psychologist, and I have no opinion on the healthiness of its use.

I'd make similar arguments to someone who insisted that the X card was necessary.

Quote from: rytrasmi on June 03, 2022, 03:43:12 PM
Plopping an X card on the table is disrespectful to your fellow gamers at the table. When you sit down at a table with an X card you are implicitly agreeing that you cannot be trusted to be respectful of your fellow humans.

I don't feel that I'm being disrespected, but I can see that is a personal thing. If you feel disrespected, then speak up about it. Personally, I can't relate to either "I can't play unless there's an X card" or "I can't play because there's an X card". But to each their own.

Personally, I have trouble picking up the dice when I'm wearing kevlar work gloves. And sometimes the safety goggles fog up. One thing I could go for, though, might be something like little rubber nubs that securely fasten to the corners of d4's. That would make them a little safer when stepped on, but I think it would also give the dice a little extra bounce when rolled. When the d4 falls flat on the table, sometimes it feels like it hasn't been sufficiently randomized. I think rubber nubs would fix that.

Quote from: Plotinus on June 03, 2022, 07:21:41 AM
I reject the implication that each player has veto power over content ahead of time; they can ask if certain content can be avoided, but it should be perfectly acceptable for the GM to say no.

Yes indeed... Once you set out your stall for the game and the players know the age rating and type of game it is, etc. If they then proceed to join the game it's tough tits as far as I'm concerned as they got the memo and consented to play. Also, they can leave the game at any time.

I'm not going to alter a game just for someone's 'comfort' at the expense of everyone else's fun.

Back in the day when people saw horror films that upset them they up and leave the cinema. There wasn't some huge x-button built into the seats to FF all the scary bits.

I believe every convention should have a door with a sign labeled "Safe Space" on it.  Said door should lead to a garbage-strewn alley behind the convention site.  There should be no way to open it from the outside.

My view is: That they are totally unnecessary for an experienced group. And conventions already the requirements for running games there in the first place.

So I find these tools to be pointless.

I read Safety Tools and thought this thread was about rock-climbing in RPGs or something. Civilized society is all the safety tools you need.

True, but then there are those that try to change the meaning of the words.  Breaking the understanding and trust.

Just for fun since I have poor impulse control...

I can think of several reasons why a table would need safety tools... and all them make me feel uncomfortable in ways the tools cannot address.

I mean this quite seriously. You usually don't need a bungie cord if you're not bungie jumping, and you don't need these safety tools unless you're going to be engaging in something (extreme content, heavy-handed virtue signalling, playing with people who are complete pieces of shit) that I don't want any part of to begin with. Safety tools are a huge red flag.