My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.

Under the logic of the x-card, I am not allowed to want that, maybe I am even an abuser for wanting that, if there is another player who wants to play in the campaign who does not want that. I just do not have any interest in playing in a game where anything can be retconned at any time by the fiat of any one player. I read a blog post once that argued that the only reason we need rules in RPGs is so that things that neither the referee nor the players want sometimes happen. That is a little extreme, but it gets at the point that I want the possibility of genuine pathos in an RPG, the possibility of Greek-style tragic happenings that nobody exactly wanted but that resulted from the players' choices anyway. I would say that this is one of the primary things I want out of an RPG.

Even worse are safety tools that allow for infinite rewinding, fast-forwarding, redoing, etc. In RPGs, what happens happens; it makes the rules pointless and ruins everything if I have a full suite of godlike powers to just decide what happens.

Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM

Even worse are safety tools that allow for infinite rewinding, fast-forwarding, redoing, etc. In RPGs, what happens happens; it makes the rules pointless and ruins everything if I have a full suite of godlike powers to just decide what happens.

This right here.  This is a perfect example of why Safety tools are stupid.  They go against everything that makes an RPG and RPG.  Someone said it best on this thread, if you need to use safety tools to play an RPG, you probably shouldn't be playing an RPG.

Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM
My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.

If a make believe character dies, and the player has a panic attack, then player needs treatment not an x-card.

I had no idea what this stuff was, I thought you were talking about tools to help with calculations, to keep track of ever changing HPs and stuff. I looked it up. I feel shame for whoever came up with the idea, even more for whoever felt the need to use them.
Kids today need more cartoons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Hutch_the_Honeybee

Quote from: Abraxus on June 02, 2022, 08:18:25 AM
Second many are flawed especially the x-card whose creator stubbornly refuses to fix let alone admit it's main failure especially its fans. Once an x-card is is played neither the player using it is obliged to say why the card was played not the other players or DM are allowed to ask. So an entire campaign can come to a crashing halt because of it. Yet the X-card has no major "flaws".

The X-card would be worse if the player would be made to explain. It could turn the whole game into an impromptu and unprofessional therapy session. The X-card doesn't have a flaw that can be fixed as the X-card in and of itself is a completely and totally flawed tool in an rpg game. Maybe something like the X-card has a use in a legitimate therapy session, but the gaming table isn't it.

The way to go is to know your group, or if you're at a convention game keep it "PG" or lower, unless the game explicitly presents itself as possibly involving more disturbing elements. If you sign up for a game describing itself as "Shadowrunners investigating serial killings at a BDSM club" you don't get to claim to be surprised or triggered when there's graphic sexual violence in the game. That's you being an asshole for signing up for that game that you weren't going to be into to begin with.

If a gamemaster decides to spring that on you without warning the X-card wouldn't save you, even in the very unlikely event that that kind of gamemaster would have used the X-card. And if one did tap the X-card do you really want to get into a discussion with the everyone at the convention table how it's completely weird for the GM to take a session about the Scooby-Doo kids, and twist it into his own version on 7even? If you wind up in that 1-in-a-thousand train wreck just excuse yourself from the table and leave.

The X-card is worse than a comfort tool as mentioned before. At best it's a false comfort that will fail you when you need it. At worst it's bait for those who want to create the wrong kind emotional drama and harm at a table better handled on a therapist's couch.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point a concept similar to the X-card is introduced to university courses. Someone finds the lecture on slavery in the antebellum south disconcerting, tap the X-card icon on your university provided app, and the professors class will be halted, and the relevant "safety teams" at the school will be instantly notified of the incident. Sounds crazy, but there are also teachers now that will only give a grade of F if the student scores 19% or less on an exam.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/jnswire/jns-media/3f/1f/11609874/american-history-sylabus-oprf.pdf

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 02, 2022, 07:53:43 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 02, 2022, 07:34:59 AM
As someone else said on another forum (I can't remember who) and they totally hit the nail on the head - safety tools should be called player 'comfort tools'. Because that's all they effectively do. Make players feel fluffy. As there is no technical need for safety at an elfgame (beyond that of an age rating).

That was TristanEvans. My favorite alternate term to come out of that thread was "squid tools", not cuz it was better, but cuz I found it funny for some reason. Someone came up with an acronym for it at some point to make it work: Standardized Quick Incident De-escalation tools, or S.Q.U.I.D. Tools.

Ah, I thought it was Tristan but I wasn't sure. So thanks for the clarification.

Hah... Squid tools.

The only other issue I have is that if one is not using them then by default the person must be misogynistic or (insert word)ist.

Screw that noise we have Session Zero just tell me what themes or subjects are taboo and they are. I'm not going to be treating a player like mental patient, I'm treating them like a (hopefully) mature adult. Don't like undead or freaked out by them then don't join a dam game of All Flesh Must be Eaten. Then Ask if the campaign can have less Zombies

Quote from: Abraxus on June 02, 2022, 11:10:30 AM
Don't like undead or freaked out by them then don't join a dam game of All Flesh Must be Eaten. Then Ask if the campaign can have less Zombies

If only these people could apply a bit of common sense. But...

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 02, 2022, 11:12:16 AM

Quote from: Abraxus on June 02, 2022, 11:10:30 AM
Don't like undead or freaked out by them then don't join a dam game of All Flesh Must be Eaten. Then Ask if the campaign can have less Zombies

If only these people could apply a bit of common sense. But...

Most definitely and they are able too.

The safety tools simply give them an excuse for bad behaviour.  While I don't dislike the concept of being a Vegan as an Omnivore I'm not going to usually go to all Vegan dinner or not very often. If I do I can't rip the host a new one when he told me from the start what kind of food would be at the dinner.

Quote from: SHARK on June 01, 2022, 07:07:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
  This does make me circle back to a key idea though.  Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with?   Time is a limited resource, pretty much the only one that once wasted can never be replenished, so I do not take chances on wasting it with people I have no idea about how they play or anything about them.   Maybe there is a different feeling to playing consistently with strangers, but I honestly never need X cards, safety tools, or anything else because I am not going to play with people I have not vetted to some degree.

Greetings!

Exactly, Ogg!

Can you imagine playing with a group of Marines? Or a group of veterans and redneck girls?

Introducing "X-Cards" would get you mercilessly laughed at and ridiculed to no fucking end.

I routinely keep my Marine K-Bar at my game table. Sometimes, my Glock .45 is nearby as well. My Glock .45 pistol is my ultimate "X-Card".

I have a game table set up in one part of my garage, which also serves as a hobby table. Just feet away, are extensive work tables and a reloading bench. Lots of weapons and ammunition. Welcome to the "House of Guns!"

I have one group of players that routinely smoke cigars, and bring whiskey to drink while playing. The girls smoke cigarettes. The room is often filled with people running their mouths with *no filters* whatsoever. Savage humour. Proclamations of conquest and ruthless violence abound. The hate flows like sweet syrup. Sexual humour, making fun of retards, expressing derision for cock-sucking pussy SJW's is absolutely routine. Guns, liquor, cigars and cigarettes. The men are men, and the women are women. No one is fucking "confused" about their fucking gender. Women actually like to fuck real men, and the men like to fuck real women. No one is confused or somehow opening their mouth with emotional diarrhea about "Gender Fluid" they are. It is also interesting how this group--and many others I have played with--never snivel and worry about the fucking Orcs being some oppressed minority, and them being victims of "White Supremacy" and "Colonialism". Drow Elves are wicked and evil, and should always be relentlessly exterminated.

Most monsters and traditionally evil humanoid races likewise are simply put to the sword, or cast into the great fire. Let their tortured cries and the smoke from their death be as a sweet incense to the Heavens!

Yeah, SJW's wouldn't be comfortable in such a group, for sure. Let them fucking REEE all they want. Most normal gamers will continue to gather together with like-minded, normal gamers, and play and enjoy the game properly, and not have the game corrupted by SJW pussy crybabies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Where do you live?  This sounds like the table for me.

Quote from: Skullking on June 02, 2022, 09:02:45 AM

Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM
My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.

If a make believe character dies, and the player has a panic attack, then player needs treatment not an x-card.

Must... post...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 03, 2022, 12:36:14 AM

Quote from: Skullking on June 02, 2022, 09:02:45 AM

Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM
My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.

If a make believe character dies, and the player has a panic attack, then player needs treatment not an x-card.

Must... post...

My God, the Chick Tract was trying to warn us about these people almost 40 years ago!

Typically, for my own games, I don't tend to use any safety tools. There is one local convention that requires some sort of safety tool (Big Bad Con), but the tool can be as simple as an "Open Door Policy" where if a player is upset they are invited to leave the game with no judgement.

Still, I've played in about two dozen convention games with the X-card, and in my experience, it doesn't change things at all. It's an option that is explained at the beginning, but none of the players ever touch the X-card during play. I've also used the X-card three times when GMing a game that has it written into the rules (the game Bluebeard's Bride).

Particularly in the horror games like Bluebeard's Bride, there's been lots of terrible stuff happen including PCs tortured and killed. It just wasn't to the point that it ruined the fun of the game to the players.

Quote from: Plotinus on June 02, 2022, 08:56:41 AM
My main problem with the x-card is that it is perfectly possible for it to ruin the game for me, even if the person using it is not acting in bad faith. For example: let's say a beloved, innocent NPC dies, and this is genuinely upsetting to one of the players. Maybe it is even panic-inducing for that player. So that player uses the x-card, and the referee has no choice but to silently retcon the NPC's death. That is a big problem for me if I want to play in a game where genuinely upsetting things are allowed to happen.

Under the logic of the x-card, I am not allowed to want that

I don't know you, but I suspect that you also have lines about in-game content that would ruin the fun of the game for you, and that you don't want to happen. i.e. You want things that are upsetting up to a point, but if it goes too far it can make things bad. When I've discussed with players about lines, I've had some players who didn't want their characters raped, and others who didn't want children being abused or killed. I think a lot of players would have problems with children being raped, say.

Some people would say "Well, obviously that would be going too far" - but exactly where the line is between "dark fun" and "too dark" varies from player to player. One can address that line without using the X-card, certainly. But groups who use the X-card aren't saying that there can't be anything dark - just that there is a line where things can go too far.

Again, in my experience at conventions, the X-card barely changed the game since it was never invoked by players.

Quote from: Persimmon on June 03, 2022, 12:12:00 AM

Quote from: SHARK on June 01, 2022, 07:07:47 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
  This does make me circle back to a key idea though.  Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with?   Time is a limited resource, pretty much the only one that once wasted can never be replenished, so I do not take chances on wasting it with people I have no idea about how they play or anything about them.   Maybe there is a different feeling to playing consistently with strangers, but I honestly never need X cards, safety tools, or anything else because I am not going to play with people I have not vetted to some degree.

Greetings!

Exactly, Ogg!

Can you imagine playing with a group of Marines? Or a group of veterans and redneck girls?

Introducing "X-Cards" would get you mercilessly laughed at and ridiculed to no fucking end.

I routinely keep my Marine K-Bar at my game table. Sometimes, my Glock .45 is nearby as well. My Glock .45 pistol is my ultimate "X-Card".

I have a game table set up in one part of my garage, which also serves as a hobby table. Just feet away, are extensive work tables and a reloading bench. Lots of weapons and ammunition. Welcome to the "House of Guns!"

I have one group of players that routinely smoke cigars, and bring whiskey to drink while playing. The girls smoke cigarettes. The room is often filled with people running their mouths with *no filters* whatsoever. Savage humour. Proclamations of conquest and ruthless violence abound. The hate flows like sweet syrup. Sexual humour, making fun of retards, expressing derision for cock-sucking pussy SJW's is absolutely routine. Guns, liquor, cigars and cigarettes. The men are men, and the women are women. No one is fucking "confused" about their fucking gender. Women actually like to fuck real men, and the men like to fuck real women. No one is confused or somehow opening their mouth with emotional diarrhea about "Gender Fluid" they are. It is also interesting how this group--and many others I have played with--never snivel and worry about the fucking Orcs being some oppressed minority, and them being victims of "White Supremacy" and "Colonialism". Drow Elves are wicked and evil, and should always be relentlessly exterminated.

Most monsters and traditionally evil humanoid races likewise are simply put to the sword, or cast into the great fire. Let their tortured cries and the smoke from their death be as a sweet incense to the Heavens!

Yeah, SJW's wouldn't be comfortable in such a group, for sure. Let them fucking REEE all they want. Most normal gamers will continue to gather together with like-minded, normal gamers, and play and enjoy the game properly, and not have the game corrupted by SJW pussy crybabies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Where do you live?  This sounds like the table for me.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Hey there, Persimmon! Outstanding! I'm glad to hear that you like my style! I'm up here in the red state of Idaho!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

One of the advantages of playing with an older group over a video stream, with kids running around in the background, is the content stays well and truly PG. Having played in games with players torturing, raping, and bellowing obscenities while 'roleplaying' it adds nothing to immersion. Quite the opposite. I find myself thinking what is wrong with this guy?