Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 07:26:38 PM
SHARK:

I'm going to say this once. I grew up around veterans. I grew up around active military. One of my uncles served in Vietnam. And I was the first person ever to thank him for his service genuinely.

I made him cry like a baby in doing so. Where he was finally able to open up and tell about the things he saw and did in the war. To say he saw action and lived the horror of war is understating things. And he is the first person to stand up and say he was no hero.

Your macho Marine act doesn't work on me. A real man, a real soldier, doesn't act like a child pretending to be an adult.

Greetings!

WHAT? Well, is that right, jackass? I didn't address you by name, so I don't know why you have sand in your pussy. I wasn't even thinking of you in any way, bitch. But since you want to insult me, fine. Get fucked.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 07:34:35 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:30:08 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 06:16:29 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"

I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.

Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it  [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself.  [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card?  [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use?  [ pause ]  Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"

Malicious compliance is a great reason for booting an asshole from the table.

The X-card tool itself is malicious. Nobody should feel bad about using the tool's own rules against it. I encourage anyone who has this put out in a convention game to just touch tap the card about every 15 or so minutes. Point out that you shouldn't have to explain why, but make up some sob story to explain why you tapped the card. The more melodramatic the better. If you find yourself at an X-card table just realize that your original hopes for a decent game were already lost. Now you might as well get your entertainment wrecking a Woke game, and maybe, just maybe you'll get one of the Woke to question their cult beliefs.

HappyDaze, your butt-hurt reaction just shows what a lame tool the X-card actually is, and that your afraid of just how easy it is to turn it on itself.

Any rule can be turned to bad ends, but it is your butt-hurt that is driving you to encourage others to do it here. Look at your post. You're encouraging people to go to games and disrupt other people's fun to prove some stupid point. Why are you the enemy of fun?

The X-card can be fine if everyone is using it in good faith. If someone is not, then it can also become an effective asshole detector. Ditch the asshole and get back to having a game with people that are trying to have fun.

How would you detect the asshole? The card can be tapped for any reason, and no explanation is required. If someone was doing this maliciously at a con game by the time you thought it was being done maliciously the game is already wrecked. You have to go through a process to kick someone out of a con game, and the asshole has pretty easy defenses to apply.

But here's a newsflash. Anyone and everyone interacting with the X-card is a malicious asshole. The person who sets up the game with an X-card is an asshole for introducing such a manipulative "tool" to the gaming table to begin with. Anyone tapping the X-card is an asshole for substituting an RPG for their own personal therapy session. I'll repeat that. People who "genuinely" tap the X-card are assholes. If they're going to somehow get weirded out by regular RPG play they're assholes for sitting themselves at a gaming table ready to disrupt play. There's no valid reason to tap the X-card. If you feel like you need to then get yourself some mental health care, but stop dragging everyone else's fun into your private issues. For the 1-in-a-thousand scenario where you wind up with a legitimate creep at the table that X-card was never going to do you any good anyway, and shame on the X-card advocates who fooled you into thinking the X-card would protect you.

It's a legitimately good thing to wreck the X-card concept.

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 07:54:15 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 07:34:35 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:30:08 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 06:16:29 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"

I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.

Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it  [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself.  [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card?  [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use?  [ pause ]  Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"

Malicious compliance is a great reason for booting an asshole from the table.

The X-card tool itself is malicious. Nobody should feel bad about using the tool's own rules against it. I encourage anyone who has this put out in a convention game to just touch tap the card about every 15 or so minutes. Point out that you shouldn't have to explain why, but make up some sob story to explain why you tapped the card. The more melodramatic the better. If you find yourself at an X-card table just realize that your original hopes for a decent game were already lost. Now you might as well get your entertainment wrecking a Woke game, and maybe, just maybe you'll get one of the Woke to question their cult beliefs.

HappyDaze, your butt-hurt reaction just shows what a lame tool the X-card actually is, and that your afraid of just how easy it is to turn it on itself.

Any rule can be turned to bad ends, but it is your butt-hurt that is driving you to encourage others to do it here. Look at your post. You're encouraging people to go to games and disrupt other people's fun to prove some stupid point. Why are you the enemy of fun?

The X-card can be fine if everyone is using it in good faith. If someone is not, then it can also become an effective asshole detector. Ditch the asshole and get back to having a game with people that are trying to have fun.

How would you detect the asshole? The card can be tapped for any reason, and no explanation is required. If someone was doing this maliciously at a con game by the time you thought it was being done maliciously the game is already wrecked. You have to go through a process to kick someone out of a con game, and the asshole has pretty easy defenses to apply.

But here's a newsflash. Anyone and everyone interacting with the X-card is a malicious asshole. The person who sets up the game with an X-card is an asshole for introducing such a manipulative "tool" to the gaming table to begin with. Anyone tapping the X-card is an asshole for substituting an RPG for their own personal
therapy session. I'll repeat that. People who "genuinely" tap the X-card are assholes. If they're going to somehow get weirded out by regular RPG play their assholes for sitting themselves at a gaming table ready to disrupt play. There's no valid reason to tap the X-card. If you feel like you need to get yourself some mental health, but stop dragging everyone else's fun into your private issues. For the 1-in-a-thousand scenario where you wind up with a legitimate creep at the table that X-card was never going to do you any good anyway, and shame of the X-card advocates who fooled you into thinking the X-card would protect you.

It's a legitimate good to wreck the X-card concept.

Greetings!

Outstanding, wmarshal! Very nice analysis. That is what I have always thought as well. People that support the "X-Card" are mentally damaged morons.

I think of them as weak bitch pussies.

The whole "X-Card" thing is an SJW circlejerk rooted also in BDSM depravity.

These people are pathetic, and seek to further corrupt our hobby.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

"Safety tools" are an attempt to compensate for lack of maturity at the table.   They're insufficient when there is a problem.  They're pointless when there isn't.  So, useless.

I don't mind BDSM in its place? I'm a big admirer of the Marquis de Sade. The feminist author Camille Paglia (a friend of Rush Limbaugh and a controversial figure herself) wrote about him as the intellectual counter to Rousseau, the guy who infests Progressive dogma.

(Rousseau and the noble savage, where man is born free and everywhere he is in chains? Therefore, society is to blame for all the ills of the common man, like burning looting and murdering is ultimately laid at the feet of the white majority for those who follow this line of thought.)

It's the civilized man of society that holds back the ravenous horde from oppressing the weak. It's not society's fault that the weak are oppressed (as Rousseau and his ilk believe). Sade's frankly pornographic stories are perversely brilliant statements about civil and uncivil behavior.

There's a place for it, in any case. It is depravity, but only the civilized person can truly recognize and appreciate depravity. (which is why I like the controversy out of Venger and Grim Jim even without knowing one word about them as individuals)

Not everyone has to agree, of course. There are some real dipshts who celebrate sadism in a superficial way, so I understand the revulsion.

It's part of a larger trend towards infantilizing people and attempting to force the broader group (whether that group is the table or the RPG hobby or society as a whole) to adhere to a new (and worse) set of norms.

It's appropriate to have certain taboo subjects. In my experience playing over the past few decades, the groups I've played in have always eschewed direct mention of violence against innocent women, children, animals, discussion of torture, extreme gore, cannibalism, and so on. No one has ever needed to explicitly spell out why these topics are to be treated lightly.

Ironically products I've seen from very "woke" companies have often been the worst offenders for this. Pathfinder products often feature these things quite explicitly, yet Paizo is one of the most politically charged producers of gaming content. I would never consider running Paizo products with children, women, or a new table where I'm not sure about the comfort levels of the players.

It is true that some groups of people don't treat this subject matter sensitively. When a player is uncomfortable with subject matter of a game, there's a mature way to voice concern, and an immature way. The reliance on specific tools rather than dialogue is actually the immature way. I don't think this is a huge faux pas, but only really healthy way to interact is to voice your concerns, not devising a system that attempts to automate interactions. Trying to automate this and remove the human element is itself pathological.

Some of my friends have particular issues with some things. Some players have phobias of creatures such as spiders, snakes, heights, and so on. Exposure to these things in games is pretty common and could be seen as part of exposure therapy to defuse these irrational fears.

For other types of issues: I had a family member die last year, and some of the events of our games made me feel upset. If it had pushed me a little bit further I would've spoken to our GM and explained the situation, and I'm sure he would've accommodated me.

Quote from: oggsmash on June 01, 2022, 06:40:49 PM
Don't you guys vette the people you are going to play with?

Absolutely... but I tend to do it pre-emptively. If I'm gaming online I always say the game is for 18s+ (even if it's not) and contains horror, and will have no modern safety tools.

Anyone that replies afterward is a pretty safe bet. They got the 'memo' and knew what was coming.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 06:48:42 PM
My personal movie ratings for my games run at a convention never went beyond PG. Conventions are a public place. So I treat them like it.

This is always a safe bet. It's just common sense and no safety tools are needed.

If I were to run a public game I'd do a PG thing too. Unless the convention had a place where mature players couldn't be disturbed (like a private room) and no kids were around to hear shit being said. Again, it's just applying a bit of common sense.

I don't play in public games anymore because of this sort of lunacy. As wmarshal mentioned, someone can totally ruin a game just by exploiting these "safety tools", intentionally or not.

It's why I only play with friends nowadays. Everyone gets pissed drunk, calls each other names, laughs about shit, and then wakes up the next day with a few cherished memories. Life goes on, everyone's happy.

Quote from: Mishihari on June 01, 2022, 09:01:24 PM
"Safety tools" are an attempt to compensate for lack of maturity at the table.   They're insufficient when there is a problem.  They're pointless when there isn't.  So, useless.

Yes, either insufficient or unnecessary.  There is a corollary to that fact, too:  Those playing with them are pretending.  They've gone from pretending to play with fire to pretending to getting burned.  They've done it so long in their screwed up heads that they can't distinguish real fire from fake, and fake burns from real ones.

As someone else said on another forum (I can't remember who) and they totally hit the nail on the head - safety tools should be called player 'comfort tools'. Because that's all they effectively do. Make players feel fluffy. As there is no technical need for safety at an elfgame (beyond that of an age rating).

Quote from: Mishihari on June 01, 2022, 09:01:24 PM
"Safety tools" are an attempt to compensate for lack of maturity at the table.   They're insufficient when there is a problem.  They're pointless when there isn't.  So, useless.

I was about to make almost the same point. cf. Adam Koebel. Even when such tools could potentially have helped, they weren't used.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 02, 2022, 07:34:59 AM
As someone else said on another forum (I can't remember who) and they totally hit the nail on the head - safety tools should be called player 'comfort tools'. Because that's all they effectively do. Make players feel fluffy. As there is no technical need for safety at an elfgame (beyond that of an age rating).

That was TristanEvans. My favorite alternate term to come out of that thread was "squid tools", not cuz it was better, but cuz I found it funny for some reason. Someone came up with an acronym for it at some point to make it work: Standardized Quick Incident De-escalation tools, or S.Q.U.I.D. Tools.

I don't like safety tools because it removes the responsibility from the player to the DM to make sure they are joining the right group. Apparently our hobby is filled with Aracnophobes. If I m running a campaign against Drow with spiders and similar allies it's on the player not the DM to not join the game.

Second many are flawed especially the x-card whose creator stubbornly refuses to fix let alone admit it's main failure especially its fans. Once an x-card is is played neither the player using it is obliged to say why the card was played not the other players or DM are allowed to ask. So an entire campaign can come to a crashing halt because of it. Yet the X-card has no major "flaws".

More importantly it shows to me that the individual helped now with society refuses to become an adult at least in mind. Both perhaps remain an child mentally. Such individuals usual end up being alone because one is not going to be able to play an x-card say when having a serious discussion with one wife or girlfriend or any other significant other.

Quote from: SHARK on June 01, 2022, 07:44:37 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on June 01, 2022, 07:26:38 PM
SHARK:

I'm going to say this once. I grew up around veterans. I grew up around active military. One of my uncles served in Vietnam. And I was the first person ever to thank him for his service genuinely.

I made him cry like a baby in doing so. Where he was finally able to open up and tell about the things he saw and did in the war. To say he saw action and lived the horror of war is understating things. And he is the first person to stand up and say he was no hero.

Your macho Marine act doesn't work on me. A real man, a real soldier, doesn't act like a child pretending to be an adult.

Greetings!

WHAT? Well, is that right, jackass? I didn't address you by name, so I don't know why you have sand in your pussy. I wasn't even thinking of you in any way, bitch. But since you want to insult me, fine. Get fucked.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thank you for your service, SHARK.

That post turned my stomach. To summarize, he didn't serve his country, but he was around people who did. But that's okay, he made one of them cry. He then took the opportunity to use the freedom you and so many others have provided to then question you as a man and a soldier. It might be the most fucked up thing I have seen somebody say around here.

I've had disagreements with many vets at the table over the years. And like any other section of the population, some were more reasonable than others. But it stopped at the table. And in this case, it should have stayed in the confines of context and a message board. Attacking someone's service is disgusting.