Quote from: Jaeger on June 01, 2022, 03:02:39 PM
"Safety tools" do not instill, nor are they a substitute for, proper behavior. You're just handing someone a list of what they can get away with...

Yep, codifying good behavior just invites people to push the limits. Anyone having experience with children knows this.

Quote from: rytrasmi on June 01, 2022, 02:20:36 PM
What I really dislike about safety tool zealots is the assumption that we've all been running offensive games for decades and we need to be taught how to not be an asshole, and thankfully the safety tool zealot is here to save us from ourselves. It's pure projection.

As for the tools themselves, I think they're generally unnecessary. The game and setting describe what you can expect. Does the setting have slavery or torture? Okay, then these topics might come up. The group can discuss these things and agree what to include and exclude, if they care. If it's a public/open group, then the GM can tell people what's on the table. We did this before safety tools.

As for the X Card specifically, if someone needs it, they probably shouldn't be playing games of the imagination with others. They have bigger issues that need sorting out before sitting down at a table to play an RPG. It's a game, not your personal therapy session. It's also just poorly thought out. Go read the X Card creator's instructions on how to use it. He encourages you to use the X Card to veto anything from an awkward NPC name, to funny elves, to sexual violence. I think it's irresponsible to bundle all those things together and claim that this magic piece of paper will make you "safe."

This.  All of this.  It's a really simple litmus test.  If someone thinks that they need a safety tool to play in my game, they aren't welcome.  If they think they need a safety tool to run their game, I'm actively disinterested in seeing what's in that game.  It's either no big deal stuff run by a GM with difficulty or insecurity in understanding basic human boundaries, or it's something that shouldn't be run.  Either way, doesn't sound like fun to me.

Not going into details right now, since I'm about to go do other stuff, but someone described them at another forum as "a solution looking for a problem'". Pretty much sums up "safety" tools, IMO.

Quote from: rgalex on June 01, 2022, 03:44:22 PM
I buy a lot of indie/small press titles of various stripes.  I see them mentioned a lot in these.  It's not always a big spiel about it, more akin to the old "what is an RPG" paragraph or sidebar.

Since I am sure most people stick with the big names (Such as D&D) I am sure those aren't seen by the majority of gamers.  I think that they are mentioned because they feel they need to, but I just don't see in any of the chatter I have read and the games I have played in them being used.   I ran a game at PaxCon and they have the X Cards but I put them aside and wouldnt let them be used in my game.  Nobody said anything, some people got overzealous, used some adult words but no one cared, they all had fun.

  I guess I could see a place for some guidelines....but not in any game I would ever be GM'ing, or maybe even playing in, if that makes sense?  I do not really play with complete strangers, and if I did, it would be as a player and not a GM.   I remember seeing a game at the local FLGS that was a pay to participate game that was made up of home schooled kids and GM'd by one of the store employees.  A game like that I could see have a few guidelines everyone agrees to beforehand because there is in essence a service being paid for, so everyone should have expectations of how that goes before they all sit down to play.   There were around 8 players at every session and I thought the GM did a good job of keeping the game moving and keeping the kids engaged (they were all adolescent/early teens and were very energetic, but though they got excitable were polite and engaged the entire time). 

  So something like that I could see some expectations of behavior at the table being laid down for everyone, but I also could not see a scenario where the GM is going to walk any dark paths that could trigger some hidden trauma either.   I guess there might be a direct proportion of a need for some sorts of behavior rules that is involves how many strangers you play RPGs with.  If its zero, you have zero use for them, if everyone is a stranger, might be OK to let everyone know what sorts of things we are not going to talk about at the table (sex jokes, toilet humor, politics, etc).  I think the GM can set the rules as he/she sees fit, and players either play or dont.  They can be as vague as there are no rules, or list out a few  things we are just not going to touch on.

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"

I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.

A life goal is to release a product on KS, with a promise to add additional safety tools as one of the stretch goals. When achieved, throw in a new table for thicker leather working gloves, titanium scabbards, boot spikes, and mining earplugs.

Then add a note that masks were notably absent from the tools because 'everybody knows they do not actually work'.


The problem is another life goal of mine is to not do business with Kickstarter. So...

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"

I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.

Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it  [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself.  [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card?  [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use?  [ pause ]  Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"

The only safety tools I offer is to use my woodshop tools to blunt the ends of your d4's, d8's and some d10's. I also use a table sturdy enough to actually support all the books the players bring to their table and am trained in CPR if any Cheetos, Mountain Dew, Pizza or the occasional die goes down the wrong pipe.

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"

I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.

Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it  [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself.  [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card?  [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use?  [ pause ]  Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"

Malicious compliance is a great reason for booting an asshole from the table.

Quote from: GhostNinja on June 01, 2022, 04:12:56 PM

Quote from: rgalex on June 01, 2022, 03:44:22 PM
I buy a lot of indie/small press titles of various stripes.  I see them mentioned a lot in these.  It's not always a big spiel about it, more akin to the old "what is an RPG" paragraph or sidebar.

Since I am sure most people stick with the big names (Such as D&D) I am sure those aren't seen by the majority of gamers.  I think that they are mentioned because they feel they need to, but I just don't see in any of the chatter I have read and the games I have played in them being used.   I ran a game at PaxCon and they have the X Cards but I put them aside and wouldnt let them be used in my game.  Nobody said anything, some people got overzealous, used some adult words but no one cared, they all had fun.

These are already present in Pathfinder 2E.  One of the champions of this is now at WotC, and I heard the Ravenloft book included mentioning them.  I would expect them to be in the 50th anniversary changes, since there's a shared delusion from the current crop of designers that they are helpful. 

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 06:16:29 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on June 01, 2022, 04:35:58 PM

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 02:44:26 PM
If I'm in a game with an X-card I plan on hitting it the next time I fail a critical roll, or it looks like my character is about to go down. "Sorry, I am terribly terrified of failure, and I thought this was a safe space. In fact, questioning my use of the X-card is invalidating my lived experience. How dare you!"

I think that this can be used to show their value. Any player that let's something like this bother them enough that they show their ass like the poster above describes gets a boot from the game.

Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it  [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself.  [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card?  [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use?  [ pause ]  Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"

Malicious compliance is a great reason for booting an asshole from the table.

The X-card tool itself is malicious. Nobody should feel bad about using the tool's own rules against it. I encourage anyone who has this put out in a convention game to just touch tap the card about every 15 or so minutes. Point out that you shouldn't have to explain why, but make up some sob story to explain why you tapped the card. The more melodramatic the better. If you find yourself at an X-card table just realize that your original hopes for a decent game were already lost. Now you might as well get your entertainment wrecking a Woke game, and maybe, just maybe you'll get one of the Woke to question their cult beliefs.

HappyDaze, your butt-hurt reaction just shows what a lame tool the X-card actually is, and that your afraid of just how easy it is to turn it on itself.

I would think that in a convention a note that a game includes safety cards could be very valuable for one that wanted to avoid the type of people that feel they need such a thing to protect themselves.

Quote from: wmarshal on June 01, 2022, 06:07:05 PM
Just going by the rules of the X-card from the creative license:
TO USE THE X-CARD, AT THE START OF YOUR GAME, SIMPLY SAY:
"I'd like your help. Your help to make this game fun for everyone. If anything makes anyone uncomfortable in any way... [ draw X on an index card ] ...just lift this card up, or simply tap it  [ place card at the center of the table ]. You don't have to explain why. It doesn't matter why. When we lift or tap this card, we simply edit out anything X-Carded. And if there is ever an issue, anyone can call for a break and we can talk privately. I know it sounds funny but it will help us play amazing games together and usually I'm the one who uses the X-card to help take care of myself.  [ pause ] Does everyone consent to using the X-Card?  [ pause ] Or is there another tool you would rather use?  [ pause ]  Either way, the people playing here are more important than the game we're playing. Thank you for helping make this game fun for everyone!"

It takes just one player with ill intent to turn the X-Card against the group, and start using it to object to anything and everything. It just takes the one troll to use this to disrupt the entire group.

The X-Card is no replacement for having an adult conversation before the group even starts. It just isn't.

The negatives I personally see from using it far outweigh the positives.

Greetings!

X-Cards are for weak, crybaby pussies.

None of that bullshit is at my game table. I would never play with such fucking retarded morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK