You seem to have some unresolved conflicts Pundit. Since JongWK has a copy of the book that he can't seem to give away he could GM a short campaign for you. You'll roll up an rediculously overpowered Ranger/Wizard with a pet/mount Tarrasque named Robert Heinlein. Then you can go an a rampage burning the entire nation to the ground, salting the earth, and then finally hunting down the deer itself. After killing it you can turn on you pet and kill it to. Maybe call the whole thing Open Season 2:Bambi Bites It?

Quote from: RPGPunditYup, everything you wrote there is pretty well correct. However, it does nothing to address the real point, that the issues with the Magic Deer are just symptomatic with the deeper issues of a game where they have classified collectivism as objectively good, and liberalism/libertarianism as objectively evil; the deer is just a cherry on top of a Deus Ex Machina that MAKES SURE no uppity players could EVER possibly change the situation.

The supposed deeper issues amount to a sentence or two in the alignment section where they say that Light-aligned characters value community and the good of all over self-interest.  Now, I suppose you can interpret that to mean that communism :eek: -- or you could interpret it as "Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others" (which is D&D's definition of Good alignment).  

Even if you smell the whiff of communism in those words, however, they're pretty trivial to adjust.  

And, again, the Hart is a Deus Ex Machina which never fucking appears.  The only thing the Hart would get in the way of is putting a different individual on the traditional Aldean throne.  There is enormous room for change without doing this.  The Aldean government has changed in the past without the intervention of the Hart -- such as by the formation of the Merchant's Council.  Note that Aldea isn't totalitarian since the sovereign can be overruled by unanimous vote of the three councilors (Merchant, Noble, and Rhydan).  So if you were set on PC's changing things, they could, say, institute a constitution without the Hart's interference and potentially without the sovereign's approval.  


Seriously, I'm sympathetic to bringing this sort of thing in, but I can easily see doing it in Blue Rose.  In the Amber campaign we wrapped up in December, the PCs had grown up on Earth and reacted badly to the assumption of totalitarian rule.  So we were all set on reforming Amber into a constitutional monarchy.  We ended up rescuing Oberon, and reinstating him only on the condition of restricted power.

Quote from: blakkieYou seem to have some unresolved conflicts Pundit. Since JongWK has a copy of the book that he can't seem to give away he could GM a short campaign for you. You'll roll up an rediculously overpowered Ranger/Wizard with a pet/mount Tarrasque named Robert Heinlein. Then you can go an a rampage burning the entire nation to the ground, salting the earth, and then finally hunting down the deer itself. After killing it you can turn on you pet and kill it to. Maybe call the whole thing Open Season 2:Bambi Bites It?

Actually, I've had a copy of Blue Rose for a lot longer than Jong; I also ran one of the earliest, and longest-running campaigns using BR, though it wasn't set in Aldis (it was actually set in Port Blacksand).

RPGPundit

Quote from: jhkimHuh?  Do you have any idea what you're talking about?  As I've mentioned

No that why I am asking questions and throwing out what I understand at that point.

Among my interests is alternative history. But not just that but I like what-ifs in general. Most of my campaigns, I like to extrapolate logically from the whatever initial conditions are. Whether it a universe where sentient dinosaur terraformed every possible world within several hundred light years and disappeared, where people developed superpowers in 1986 due to a genetic plague released by a dying alien trying to give us a chance at stopping an invasion that will occur in 20 years, etc.

So I am interested in knowing where were the initial conditions of Blue Rose and why a fair amount of people think about it the way they do.

Quote from: jhkimThe Golden Hart is the divine or semi-divine force which by tradition chooses the sovereign in the kingdom of Aldis. Its direct intervention is almost exclusively in choosing and crowning the new ruler.  It has  appeared at three other times in the history of Aldis. It aided the original rebellion which formed Aldis by conferring immunity to sorcery to all those within sight of it. It has also appeared twice in the 300 years since to depose a ruler of Aldis. It does nothing to enforce the sovereign's rule, however.  

The Blue Rose setting descriptive text does have flowery language about how good the Hart's choices of people is and so forth.  Somehow, I didn't think this constitutes a real-world argument for rule by magical animal selection of a sovereign and take offense.

You  state it clearly, thanks. This helps summarize nicely what I been reading in other places.

Well it isn't as bad as the uber being problem. The Golden Hart works by empowering those who share it values. This reinforced by mythic belief because of the Golden Hart grant of immunity against sorcery that won the freedom of Aldis against the undead 300 years ago.

Quote from: RPGPunditYup, everything you wrote there is pretty well correct. However, it does nothing to address the real point, that the issues with the Magic Deer are just symptomatic with the deeper issues of a game where they have classified collectivism as objectively good, and liberalism/libertarianism as objectively evil; the deer is just a cherry on top of a Deus Ex Machina that MAKES SURE no uppity players could EVER possibly change the situation.

No, its just a real world argument for rule by a special elite of social workers and sanctimonious politically correct beaurocrats. The deer is a metaphor for Orwell's "boot stepping on a human face, forever".
RPGPundit

You know all of this has a very familiar ring to it......

Mmmm I played, ran events, and owned a chapter in the boffer LARP NERO for over 12 years. (Stepped out due to lack of time after the birth of my 2nd child) The viewpoints and arguments seems very similair to some situations I ran into in NERO Larp.

The NERO campaign wasn't a Blue Rose type game by any means. But many problems arose because in-game was ruled by the Plot committee of the chapter. And if you were unhappy in-game and plot didn't give you an adventure path (and plot often didn't) to resolve those type of issues. You were out of luck and knew that you couldn't beat the nobles.

And another problem was that rarely a majority was upset at the nobles. While nearly everyone ran into problems with in-game rulers it was always at different times for different reasons.

It seems to me that the Golden Hart has its ideals of 'good'. And the liberation from the undead was the perfect time to inject its ideas into the general populace. Making sure that the initial leader not only shared its values the Hart also gave a useful tool (in the form of the scepter) to help the leader pick people that also shared those values (collectivism, and rest of Aldis culture) to support him in daily rule.

This in combination with aiding victory with the immunity against only furthered the adoption of the Hart's values among the people of Aldris. Further the speaking animals sorta of a priesthood. Not in a ritualistic way but in a symbolic way to remind everyone that the Golden Hart was instrumental in the liberation of Aldis.

And like NERO you have your maddogs and just plain people for whatever reason can't get along with how thing are run. With no hope of rebellion or change because the Golden Hart choses the one to be King they run to other lands.

This also explains the viability and existence of the ultra-conservative land. Because of the first people to not be able to deal with the situation would be your wackos. But as the problem slowly grows year after year the wackos get some competent people on their side as which time they cease becoming your wacky enemy but a competent enemy as well.

Also as the rebellion passes out of living memory of humans (say 150 years after the grandchildren of the people who fought in the war start dying) The needs and wants of human society will start changing. But it can't because the Golden Hart is still there picking Kings the way it wants to since the beginning.

Now the dissatisfaction grows large enough that the subset that is doesn't want to move to wacko land will stay in Aldis. They will form cliques and sub societies that aren't mainstream Aldis and throughly out of power. Given enough time their fringe members will become even more extreme and form the what the rulers consider evil societies in the heart of Aldis.

As for the barbarians the combination of the reality of the Golden Hart and speaking animals has given them the  belief that they can't ultimately beat Aldis.

So as I see it

1) If you believe in the values of the Golden Hart Aldis is heaven.
2) If you somewhat disagree but not otherwise hostile, Aldis is hell as you will never be in power and other people who have power are like various shades of deadly and/or wacko.
3) The long term situation is that most humans will develop a "why should I care, I can't change it" attitude. Productivity will drop and the economy will suffer. Society will become less flexible over time.

It would be interesting to take a land like Aldis and make a group that is good aligned but at odds with many of the value. As outsiders with good intention they can see the rot effecting Aldis and what could they do about it.? (Aside from pulling Kirk versus the computer with the Golden Hart)

Quote from: estar

Quote from: jhkimHuh? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

No that why I am asking questions and throwing out what I understand at that point.

I missed the part where you asked questions.  Can you ask your questions again, please, and I'll be happy to answer them.  

Quote from: estar...etc...
So as I see it

1) If you believe in the values of the Golden Hart Aldis is heaven.
2) If you somewhat disagree but not otherwise hostile, Aldis is hell as you will never be in power and other people who have power are like various shades of deadly and/or wacko.
3) The long term situation is that most humans will develop a "why should I care, I can't change it" attitude. Productivity will drop and the economy will suffer. Society will become less flexible over time.

It would be interesting to take a land like Aldis and make a group that is good aligned but at odds with many of the value. As outsiders with good intention they can see the rot effecting Aldis and what could they do about it.?

Again, this is a mighty fine theory except that it doesn't match in the slightest what is in the book.  Like -- absolutely great thinking that the conservative Jarzonis arose in reaction against the Aldean rule based on the Golden Hart...  except that they arose in isolation from Aldea by the mystically-devastated, impassable Veran Marsh -- and their theocratic government was already in place by the time the Golden Hart picked its first sovereign.  

More importantly, you assert that people can't change Aldean society, which is contradicted by the historical evidence.  Society was changed, for example by the Merchant's Guild demanding and receiving a seat in the government.  Again, it might help to ask a question or two.  

The Golden Hart does indeed pick a sovereign, but it does nothing to empower that ruler.  The only way that the sovereign gets things done is the plain old usual way of people agreeing to obey orders.  If the people don't do as they are told (like when the Merchant Guild defied the government), the government has to deal with it as usual.  

Moreover, you're asserting that somehow prior to the Kingdom of the Blue Rose that common people expected a say in the government -- and that productivity would drop as they "slowly" came to the realization that they didn't.  That's an obvious anachronism.  Like most historical kingdoms, Aldis has no history of representative government.  The current kingdom is demonstrably easier to change and less authoritarian than any of the prior kingdoms.  

Incidentally, the nomadic people of Rezea are a deliberate contrast to Aldis, who fit your claim to a good people that does not share Aldean values.  Rezeans strongly valuing their independence and freedom.

Quote from: RPGPunditSome cowardly people decided to have a thread attacking me over at RPG.net, where I could not post a response myself. To be fair, a couple seem to be trying to give credit where credit is due.

I'd just like to apologise for that. For some odd reason I didn't think the thread would turn into what it did in part. I suppose I just shouldn't have quoted you at all.

Quote from: QuasarI'd just like to apologise for that. For some odd reason I didn't think the thread would turn into what it did in part. I suppose I just shouldn't have quoted you at all.

So you quoted RPGPundit and that was attacked? LOL, oh yeah real "cowards".

Quote from: QuasarI'd just like to apologise for that. For some odd reason I didn't think the thread would turn into what it did in part. I suppose I just shouldn't have quoted you at all.

I would prefer that rather than have you apologize, you might post my response on there, or a link to my response.

RPGPundit

You are trying to get him banned, aren't you?  Why not just use a real sockpuppet like any other self respecting stalker.

Quote from: jhkimAgain, this is a mighty fine theory except that it doesn't match in the slightest what is in the book.  Like -- absolutely great thinking that the conservative Jarzonis arose in reaction against the Aldean rule based on the Golden Hart...  except that they arose in isolation from Aldea by the mystically-devastated, impassable Veran Marsh -- and their theocratic government was already in place by the time the Golden Hart picked its first sovereign.  

Well this means that the people who go mad-dog are likely killed by the authorities. But just increase the rate that dissident groups will grow in Aldis as they have no place to escape.

A crucial point is it possible for any of Aldis neighbors to physically attack the country. What is the extent of travel and contact between Aldis and the outside world.

Quote from: jhkimMore importantly, you assert that people can't change Aldean society, which is contradicted by the historical evidence.  Society was changed, for example by the Merchant's Guild demanding and receiving a seat in the government.  Again, it might help to ask a question or two.  

Well your points are certainly filling in the gaps. A good question is that is there a statement within the game to the ideals professed by the Golden Hart? Other than a general statement of be good?

As for the merchant's guild. It depends on how comprehensive the creed of the Golden Hart was. If it was highly focused on a few tenets then there will be a lot of areas that are left to the competence of the ruler. I am sure that the early days were focused on rebuilding Aldis from whatever was left from the undead socerors. But after a generation or two other priorities will rise up. So given that the idea of merchants demanding a share of governance is reasonable. Particularly if what the merchants are interested in doing is something that the Golden Hart is not concerned with.  

Quote from: jhkimThe Golden Hart does indeed pick a sovereign, but it does nothing to empower that ruler.  The only way that the sovereign gets things done is the plain old usual way of people agreeing to obey orders.  If the people don't do as they are told (like when the Merchant Guild defied the government), the government has to deal with it as usual.  

First never under estimate the power of a ideal/religion/myth. People know that the Golden Hart liberated their ancestors from a horrible fate. There is a living example next door that they can see how things would have continued. Plus there is the fact that Golden Hart has shown great power in the past and acted to depose rulers in the recent past. This knowledge is enough is to prevent an overt overthrow.

This is coupled with the fact that rulers have the scepter with allows them to reliably to pick people who initially share the values of the Golden Hart (and themselves) Of course it doesn't help them later on when circumstances changes as it can be only used once on a individual.

But limited goals and limited change sure change is possible.  I can see groups in Aldis telling the government to pound salt and agitate for change provided it doesn't touch what the Golden Hart is concerned with.

Quote from: jhkimMoreover, you're asserting that somehow prior to the Kingdom of the Blue Rose that common people expected a say in the government -- and that productivity would drop as they "slowly" came to the realization that they didn't.  That's an obvious anachronism.  Like most historical kingdoms, Aldis has no history of representative government.  The current kingdom is demonstrably easier to change and less authoritarian than any of the prior kingdoms.  

It not a modern anachronism. In a nutshell people who don't care for the society they live in will not be as productive. They will not work as hard, they will not have as many children. In most cases it isn't like a light going on in their head as one day they realize "OMG this sucks". But general malaise that sets in after generations.

In part it why societies like Rome, Byzantine Empire, Soviet Union, and various Chinese Empires have fallen. Plus it is not likely Aldis will collapse for a long time because of it  the main effect is a less flexibility to outside pressure. (If any exist)

For what it worth it is only 300 years after the seminal event that shaped
Aldis so any problems that I am describing is in its infancy. Arising only because for many human the events are out of living memory. Which ranges 150 years. (Grandparents telling children what their grandparents experienced).

Quote from: jhkimIncidentally, the nomadic people of Rezea are a deliberate contrast to Aldis, who fit your claim to a good people that does not share Aldean values.  Rezeans strongly valuing their independence and freedom.

The only thing I have to say is that for an Aldean, Rezea is not a viable alternative. Sure they are "good" have independence and freedom. But the price is giving up that cozy cottage on Bagshot Row and all the amenities of civilized Aldean life.

Wow. So not one of you actually has the balls to post my response to RPG.net?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWow. So not one of you actually has the balls to post my response to RPG.net?

I've got the balls to say if you want your words posted over there you should suck it up, reel in your outlandish antisocial behavior, and play by their rules instead of being a coward and having someone do your dirty work for you. Or STFU and take your lumps as the martyr you profess yourself to be.

Or better yet, they have keyword advertising over there right?  At least I know they do in the Reviews. Buy some advertising. Then you can feed this deepseated need of yours to get heard and still keep your lovable rapscallion personality intact. :hehe:

I want to hear more about Midnight. Anyone care to elucidate?