Quote from: Shasarak;1093032I disagree that there is no nuance in Intimidation.  Type A personalities do it all the time probably with out even realising that other people find them to be intimidating.

You just described a low-Empathy person. It requires *zero* self-awareness of ones lack of empathy to be Intimdating. The degree to which one is aware of being intimidating IS the Empathy/Humanity dynamic in action. Because Intimidation is not based on Empathy. But lack of Empathy is exactly where the inability to know that your behavior might be in fact Intimdating comes into play. It further bolsters my point by the fact those people might not really care at all.

Quote from: Shasarak;1093032Likewise it does not seem to affect their allies, a lot of people would probably prefer to support someone with a strong personality and clear goals rather then an otherwise unoffensive person that wont commit one way or another.

Which is why I say - it matters contextually. If we work for a bakery and one of our coworkers is trying to sell cookies by Intimidating people into buying them, vs. Persuading people... you might get short term results. But how we take it as his co-workers can run the gamut. I'll tell you this. I'm willing to bet when the inevitable "talk" happens with our boss, the lack of support he's likely to receive will be deafening silence. Of course I'm speaking generally.

If we're gangbangers and one of our esteemed collegues likes to throw his weight around - we'd probably put on the show of liking it. As long as he's on our side. The moment he's not... problems ensue. That's the way of the world.

Quote from: Shasarak;1093032I dont mind if a PC gets into trouble by failing an Intimidate check but if they succeed then that competent NPC turns out not to be as tough as they imagined that they were or maybe the NPC actually likes other straight talking hard-asses or any other reason that does not screw over the player for using their character resources.

I'm not even saying the PC *should* get into trouble. It's grains of sand. If you use Intimidate in lieu of Persuasion *everytime* (which is why we're even having this discussion). It *will* become an issue somewhere down the line in-game. Of course not every NPC is a hard-ass. But at some point you will run into an NPC that isn't even a hardass, but he doesn't take kindly to being threatened. Or a PC. Or the fact that the PC in question is doing it so much it becomes bad for business. The issue is contextual. Intimidate is the sledgehammer of social skills. That's all I'm saying, really.

And any game where someone uses it too liberally - you're LITERALLY asking for an asswhooping to be handed out. That's the whole point of intimidation. You're insinuating overtly or subtly that some kind of asswhooping is going to occur if someone(s) don't do as you say. And ultimately it's for the Player to make that call - by dint of the fact they get to *choose* the skill they're using.

Quote from: Shasarak;1093048Its funny, I get the feeling that we are thinking of completely different types of creatures.  Because I dont know why getting bionic arms and a cyber eye is going to stop a character from being able to get a read on someone in any way other then for purely mechanics based purposes.

Even current day prosthetic technology, not to mention just wearing clothes, a trenchcoat and sunglasses, is going to disguise most cybering that is not the 80's Robo Cop/Cybermen pneumatic clunk-clunk type.

Because you're not thinking in terms of "why" people get a prosthesis now - usually due to accidents or being born with a disfigurment. Vs. Electively having your limbs amputated for the purposes of style.

Keep things in perspective. Cyberlimbs in CP2020 *are* relatively cheap on humanity. You can even get some back by having realistic skin put over them. The high-humanity cost items are the ones that clearly take you into non-human territory. Optical faceplates, Hydraulic rams on your limbs, pop-out weaponry, big mechanical implants, having your heart removed and decentralized. Most CP characters can handle the loss and still be perfectly playable.

But we're talking those PC's that wanna go full borg. When there is very little meat left. The *vast* majority of the population has minor implants at best. Really minor stuff. Being "human" is still a thing. This *isn't* transhumanism. Those folks are out there in the game - and they're akin to the those people that are *deeply* into body-modification right now, but it's far more dangerous because their interactions with the world, that fears and in many ways resents them builds on the growing disassociation that comes from not being very human anymore.

I mean, what do you think your life is going to be like when you're a 7-ft tall Omega-frame borg with 500lbs of hardware backed onto you, optical faceplate with 10-cyberoptics, you shit a chunky puddle of motor-oil and nuts and bolts once a month and drink transmission fluid and protein-toothpaste shakes for meals. You're going to get along with your corp-sec parents you rebelled against as a teenager and have a nice sit-down thanksgiving and pretend nothing is wrong? LOL. We're talking about *those* players.

Quote from: tenbones;1093096You just described a low-Empathy person. It requires *zero* self-awareness of ones lack of empathy to be Intimdating. The degree to which one is aware of being intimidating IS the Empathy/Humanity dynamic in action. Because Intimidation is not based on Empathy. But lack of Empathy is exactly where the inability to know that your behavior might be in fact Intimdating comes into play. It further bolsters my point by the fact those people might not really care at all.

My point is that you dont need to be threatening to kill someone to be intimidating.  That there are nuances in Intimidation that can range from vocal tone and volume all the way up to knife to the throat.

As for empathy, again I disagree that a Type A personality is not or can not be empathetic just that their empathy is different then other personality types

QuoteWhich is why I say - it matters contextually. If we work for a bakery and one of our coworkers is trying to sell cookies by Intimidating people into buying them, vs. Persuading people... you might get short term results. But how we take it as his co-workers can run the gamut. I'll tell you this. I'm willing to bet when the inevitable "talk" happens with our boss, the lack of support he's likely to receive will be deafening silence. Of course I'm speaking generally.

If we're gangbangers and one of our esteemed collegues likes to throw his weight around - we'd probably put on the show of liking it. As long as he's on our side. The moment he's not... problems ensue. That's the way of the world.

Yes and when you are playing Cyberpunk the chances of your character having to go around selling cookies is what?  Between slim and none.

I mean when you look at the sorts of NPCs that a character has to deal with in your normal type of game little old ladies buying girl scout cookies do not rank highly in terms of importance.  Where as having a PC that can throw their weight around and get results when the shit gets real is a much more reliable personality to have on the team.

QuoteI'm not even saying the PC *should* get into trouble. It's grains of sand. If you use Intimidate in lieu of Persuasion *everytime* (which is why we're even having this discussion). It *will* become an issue somewhere down the line in-game. Of course not every NPC is a hard-ass. But at some point you will run into an NPC that isn't even a hardass, but he doesn't take kindly to being threatened. Or a PC. Or the fact that the PC in question is doing it so much it becomes bad for business. The issue is contextual. Intimidate is the sledgehammer of social skills. That's all I'm saying, really.

Yes there will be times where Intimidation will not work just like the times that Diplomacy will not work.  I am sure that everyone has been in that game where someone decides to insult the King and still to this day can not work out why they got chucked in prison.  But that is why you have the Face character for those type of situations.

QuoteAnd any game where someone uses it too liberally - you're LITERALLY asking for an asswhooping to be handed out. That's the whole point of intimidation. You're insinuating overtly or subtly that some kind of asswhooping is going to occur if someone(s) don't do as you say. And ultimately it's for the Player to make that call - by dint of the fact they get to *choose* the skill they're using.

I dont play Cyberpunk for there not to be an asswhooping.  Why else would you get all of that cyber gear anyway?  So either way you get what you want.

This thread is gold. Thank you everyone!