QuoteJ Arcane, I understand what you're saying, but you are wrong in one aspect--there are questions asked post-purchase and whether they are serious ones or just part of the shilling is partly what I'm saying. For example, I constantly see what appear to be legitimate questions asked of Dogs in the Vineyard (as an example), with answers. These are not from people trying to decide whether or not to buy the game (sell me on), they are from people who already have it, but don't understand part of it. Now, if it were me, I would ask the publisher since they are so readily available (since this is supposedly one of the game's features). Asking this in large forum like rpg.net could be a) that it is known that lots of people play it there or b) it is a question designed to spark interest in the game.

And I think that, as a moderator on a general discussion RPG forum, that's a really wierdass attitude to take.

I mean, should we just all stop talking about games altogether except ones that don't have manufacturer forums?  

Should I stop discussing D&D because Wizards has a forum?

This is why I took you as taking the piss in the first place, 'cause this is just a silly assertion.  It may well happen, but it's hardly provable, and mostly jsut comes across as tinfoil-hatty, and is largely unnecessary in explaining the phenomenon, Occam's Razor and all that.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOkay, so that's a rather cynical take on the matter, but I think it covers the basics.  You have a designer with a catchy idea, a willigness to promote personally and flatter those with enthusiastic responses, and fans who are flattered to feel that they are early-in on a new fad and perhaps are even part of the development process.  On top of this, certain websites have a much larger subscriber base than others, that allow for a much more vigorous "darling" effect.

Makes sense.

Quote from: J ArcaneAnd I think that, as a moderator on a general discussion RPG forum, that's a really wierdass claim to make.

I mean, should we just all stop talking about games altogether except ones that don't have manufacturer forums?  

Should I stop discussing D&D because Wizards has a forum.

This is why I took you as taking the piss in the first place, 'cause this is just a silly assertion.  It may well happen, but it's hardly provable, and mostly jsut comes across as tinfoil-hatty, and is largely unnecessary in explaining the phenomenon.

I don't agree. It is a discreet way of maintaining focus on the game.

And I'm no moderator, I'm a tech admin.

Quote from: pigames.netReign

This might not qualify as a darling yet -- it's brand new and the buzz thus far seems to be typical 'new product hype'. That said, I don't think that the autheor has an official forum (the book is sold through Lulu exclusively, so far as I know). If he does, it's very under-advertised. This probably accounts for the large number of discussions going on elsewhere.

QuoteExalted

This became a darling because of viral marketing (i.e., White Wolf employees posting under pseudonyms to generate interest on popular forums). It stayed a darling because of the huge die-hard fanbase that White Wolf, as a company, has.

QuoteRiddle of Steel
Burning Wheel
Dogs in the Vineyard

All great examples of games that became popular because of social shilling, I suspect. Not that they're bad games, only that they're niche games whose sole support originally came from friends and associates of the authors. They've picked up new players since then, of course, though simply being available ensures that this will happen sooner or later.

QuoteSpirit of the Century
Fate
Weapons of the Gods

These aren't nearly quite so clear cut.

Fate has been around for a long time but hasn't really received a lot of open praise until people discovered it through Spirit of the Century, which seems to have benefitted from 'new prodcut hype' and social shilling. I suspect that Fate itself is a genuinely good game in that a small group of dedicated fans have been using it non-stop for almost a decade.

Weapons of the Gods became a darling, I think, due to name association with certain authors, heavy marketing by its publisher, and a long delayed release. That last one, especially. Let's face it, legions of geeks get wood when rumored vapourware makes it into print.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonA lot of darlings really are good games.  If I keep running a game (SotC) and have really, really fun sessions full of awesome then I'm going to keep talking about it and recommending it.

That's fine. I'm not talking about it from that perspective though, because you're clearly caught up in the hype.

(I'm kidding, of course)

Quote from: jdrakehThat said, I don't think that the autheor has an official forum (the book is sold through Lulu exclusively, so far as I know). If he does, it's very under-advertised.

'Ere's what you are looking for: it's kind of tiny as messageboards go, though.

Quote from: jdrakehThis might not qualify as a darling yet -- it's brand new and the buzz thus far seems to be typical 'new product hype'. That said, I don't think that the autheor has an official forum

Actually, he does - it's got over 3000 members, most of which I suspect are spambots).

Quote from: pigames.netActually, he does - it's got over 3000 members, most of which I suspect are spambots).

See, I had no idea that those existed, and I've actually been following the production schedule of REIGN for the last six months or so.

Quote from: pigames.netYes. I have been known to give out free stuff, but not because I expect anything in return, but because I enjoy doing it.

And you knew I was joking.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!And you knew I was joking.

I think I know you well enough by now to know that you're always joking

Quote from: jdrakehSee, I had no idea that those existed, and I've actually been following the production schedule of REIGN for the last six months or so.

There is a link to it on his main page.

Quote from: jdrakeh(i.e., White Wolf employees posting under pseudonyms to generate interest on popular forums)

I'm not doubting you, but do you have any links to other threads or articles or anything that discuss this?  Because I'd love to read more.

Why do certain specific games become RPG.net darlings and others don't?

Well, there's a combination of factors. First is the whole Fad-value, the natural sophomoric cliqueishness of RPG.net; wherein you will get people who've never played, read or even looked at a certain game talking about how utterly awesome it is just because CoolGuy over there said it, and Coolguy is a mod or a guy with lots of rep on Tangency or whatever.

Second would be that the game itself reinforces the "values" of RPG.net, the little ideological fantasy-bubble they've created for themselves, where in their world D20 doesn't even exist (or if it does, its got its own ghetto), and the most popular game in the universe is Exalted.  So obviously, and D20 game is automatically discounted from being a darling, with the very extreme exception that the game somehow go out of its way to promote the vague college-leftist middle-class-marxist postmodernist values of the RPG.net cliques.  Hence, Blue Rose was allowed to be a darling even though it was D20.

Any game that isn't artsy enough, isn't hipster enough, or somehow reminds them of D20's dominance is automatically disqualified; as are any games which dare to be small-press without buying into the Forge ideology, which is why you will see that truly spectacular games like In Harm's Way or Coyote Trail are practically NEVER talked about there.
So if you want your game to be a Darling, for fuck's sake be sure to make it full of lots of Pretty and gimmicky mechanics rather than stable reliable old-school mechanics. Be sure to thank Ron Edwards in your introduction.

Finally, to top it all off, some of the smarter game designers have come to understand the value of having your game be an RPG.net darling, and have intentionally attempted to get their game to be so.  Sometimes this works, but other times it has failed miserably. Open shilling is generally a very bad idea and will lead to your game being mocked.
On the other hand, if you can create the right underground buzz, your game could become a big Darling.

This is what the boys who wrote Spirit of the Century did; they intentionally got me to review the game, and have been quoted as saying that they were desperately hoping I would give the game a negative review (which I did) because they knew that if the RPGPundit didn't like the game, other people would rush to talk about how utterly awesome it is just out of spite.  And it worked, their game became the next big RPG.net Darling, built largely on the praise of people who don't play (and some people who haven't even read) the game, because the "right" people hated it.

So there's another hint: if you want your game to be a Darling, send me a review copy and hope to god that I dislike your game. It'll be an instant success over at RPG.net!

I'm open to bribes, btw...

RPGPundit

Quote from: pigames.netThat doesn't explain why it is discussed at length after purchase at rpg.net when it could just as easily be discussed at the appropriate publisher's message board, where the question can be directly answered with the appropriate authority. That suggests to me that most post-purchase questions are shilling.

I dunno. Some of it may be shilling, but I figure the answer for most of it is easier - most publisher boards aren't anywhere near as busy as EN World or RPG.net. WotC's boards are one of the few (if not only) exceptions. Most posters would rather hang out at a far busier board, where their questions will likely generate far more answers in a short amount of time. I get the feeling that many don't care whether the answers are official or nor, as long as they're timely.

But as to why certain games get slobbered on so ardently...I have no idea. Could be a combination of novelty, disaffection with another game or games, or elitism.

I talk about and ask questions about games I heard about on RPG.net on RPG.net for one reason only -- I'm only really interested in going to one forum for the topic.  As there's already talk about the game there I'll just keep it there -- visiting a new forum for every game I buy is just not all that appealing to me.

As to the question of why some games get slobbered on?  Is it possible that they are excellent games?  We're having a lot of fun, which seems to me to be an adequate metric.  No?

And why not here?  I should think that'd be obvious -- it's no fun talking about things that you love here because it's a guarantee that someone will wander by and shit on it.  Why would anyone want to talk about things they like in that environment?