Hey all.
Very, very long-time lurker here.
I do enjoy a lot of the posts and discussions on therpgsite and admire the stance taken here on free-thought and discussion.
I occasionally drop by said blog in title for a laugh and its brutal reviews: Over the top but in many cases hit the nail on the head.
Looks like everyone is blowing up about the author being identified.
If it is person stated, it is a surprise considering what they dabble in. My worry is it may not be and someone's reputation is going to go down the tubes.
I'm not a fan of the recent trends towards guilty before proven innocent.
Anyway, should be easy to find many Reddit threads going in the next couple days and watch them spiral down the drain.
As an aside, I like Basic DnD, DCC and Fighting Fantasy for a background.
Bye for now.
Welcome aboard! That's a great name.
Please post links to this drama.
If the blog is closed, post something archived so we know WTF this is about.
Hey thanks man! I thought it was a funny name.
Didn't realise I could post links as a first time poster here you go:
https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/caq5mo/looks_like_yourrpgisshit_is_run_by_david_guyll_of/
Oh and thanks for the welcome aboard. Appreciated.
Here is an archive of the site:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190708195028/https://yourrpgisshit.wordpress.com/
The supposed author has denied the accusation. The evidence is present but also admits of other explanations--his blog and the YRIS blog are hosted in the same town, and a screenshot purporting to be from his Twitter or Facebook feed was posted on it. He has, however, mostly gone silent since that denial. I'm taking a wait and see approach.
The YourRPGisShit blog had crazy reviews and the style is berserk in its meanness, but I hope the author keeps on trucking.
I don't see why he'd give a shit about the Twitter mob. The blog probably has far more readers than that Twitter mob has actual gamers.
Let's hope the author reinstates the blog and doesn't back down from the shrieking roaches.
Someone give me the reason why this is important? Seriously - did someone get jacked?
Well, it may not be as important as the debate between Descending vs Ascending AC but I thought it was an interesting snippet of the day-to-day drama that exists in our little hobby. Now if it had been Mearls as the masked blogger that would have been fun.
Just a little jostle in the fabric of time, nothing more.
The fact that this exists and is even something for outrage shows how skewed so many peoples' views are. It is a hobby for most, a job for very few, and the only job for even fewer. Let's reserve outrage for slightly more important issues such as homeless, starvation, etc...
Welcome to theRPGsite!!
The outrage brigade is constantly searching for the high that depersoning someone gives them. It's impossible to recapture the previous high, so the fix must remain larger and more frequent. As people grow wise to the fact that behind this shit-stained curtain is standing but a small fraction of the actual gamers, they will lose their ability to temper-tantrum themselves into faux-power (or be taken seriously). This is not a concerned group of people. They aren't interested in facts or reason. They just want to watch people burn knowing they lit the pyre.
Never heard of this blog before. Took a quick peek at some of the entries. I mean, it looks to me like just another edge lord with a blog to me. So fucking what? I'm not even entirely sure the content he had there was meant to be 100% serious. And even if it was, again, so what? Let him be, I say.
One of these days I'm actually going to have to go through with deleting my Reddit account. I keep it open because some of the RPG forums are the most active around (like /r/osr and /r/traveller), but good God those people are actually worse than the woketards at TBP a lot of times.
So it's just some guy saying "edgy" stuff and he's OSR developer, so he's fair-game (i.e. he's not WotC or a big company - so he's an easy target). And the outrage brigade struck?
And it's only controversial because he's a game developer doing KS's and doing it incognito?
Quote from: tenbones;1095481So it's just some guy saying "edgy" stuff and he's OSR developer, so he's fair-game (i.e. he's not WotC or a big company - so he's an easy target). And the outrage brigade struck?
And it's only controversial because he's a game developer doing KS's and doing it incognito?
Maybe, I guess? **shrugs**
I won't pretend to understand the outrage brigade on this one. Then again, I rarely do if I'm being honest. The shit that triggers these people...
Quote from: tenbones;1095462Someone give me the reason why this is important? Seriously - did someone get jacked?
I'm with you. I have no clue why this is important.
[video=youtube;melQWijjDQY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=melQWijjDQY[/youtube]
I'm disappointed either way. If David Guyll is NOT the guy who did YRIS, then I'm disappointed with the whoever did it for basically trying to frame him for it.
If he DID do it, I'm super-disappointed by this attempt to lie, instead of going "yeah, fuck it, I'm Iron Man" and going for it.
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1095455Hey all.
Very, very long-time lurker here.
I do enjoy a lot of the posts and discussions on therpgsite and admire the stance taken here on free-thought and discussion.
Welcome to the site!
Quote from: jeff37923;1095488I'm with you. I have no clue why this is important.
It is either a very important lesson about covering your ass better if you insist on being a
colossal asshole online, or a terrifying lesson that you can get your shit messed up on a whim anymore.
Saw this.
When ___ said "Don't be a Dick" it triggered the Dix.
It's everywhere. Move on.
I'd agree with that assessment Thornhammer. Either way it's a messy situation.
The site was so over the top I could almost imagine the spittle hitting the keyboard with every word typed. I think whoever wrote the blog made some very salient points about the amount of content (or lack thereof) people need to throw together for an RPG OSR these days as long as they market the heck out of it. I guess that rule of success is now more prevalent than ever in all walks of life.
There doesn't seem to be much in the way of the social middle-ground anymore and the pendulum swings to the extremes are the norm and have filtered into our past-times. The hobby is so fragmented, once one drops below the 5E elephant in the room to see what else is available it's an endless stream of systems: A new player would have great difficulty even knowing where to start disseminating the huge volume of RPG's out there. It's almost too much in a way. When I started, you chose Runequest, Rolemaster or DnD and that was good enough for a fantasy campaign. Now I find myself browsing the endless RPG lists on drive-thru more than just playing to make sure someone didn't invent a better wheel while I wasn't looking. Heh.
Anyway, thanks for the welcome. I figured this was a more interesting first post than inquiring about proven solutions that work for fixing thief skills again (which I fully intend on harping on about 'cause I'm never happy with them).
Quote from: tenbones;1095481So it's just some guy saying "edgy" stuff and he's OSR developer, so he's fair-game (i.e. he's not WotC or a big company - so he's an easy target). And the outrage brigade struck?
?
I looked at his publisher page and nothing appears to be OSR. Dungeon World, 5e, and his own game "Dungeons & Delvers" (which somehow evaded trademark problems) which doesn't seem very old school D&D ish.
Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies;1095516I'd agree with that assessment Thornhammer. Either way it's a messy situation.
The site was so over the top I could almost imagine the spittle hitting the keyboard with every word typed. I think whoever wrote the blog made some very salient points about the amount of content (or lack thereof) people need to throw together for an RPG OSR these days as long as they market the heck out of it. I guess that rule of success is now more prevalent than ever in all walks of life.
There doesn't seem to be much in the way of the social middle-ground anymore and the pendulum swings to the extremes are the norm and have filtered into our past-times. The hobby is so fragmented, once one drops below the 5E elephant in the room to see what else is available it's an endless stream of systems: A new player would have great difficulty even knowing where to start disseminating the huge volume of RPG's out there. It's almost too much in a way. When I started, you chose Runequest, Rolemaster or DnD and that was good enough for a fantasy campaign. Now I find myself browsing the endless RPG lists on drive-thru more than just playing to make sure someone didn't invent a better wheel while I wasn't looking. Heh.
Anyway, thanks for the welcome. I figured this was a more interesting first post than inquiring about proven solutions that work for fixing thief skills again (which I fully intend on harping on about 'cause I'm never happy with them).
Controversial Opinion: I don't believe there is an RPG industry.
I believe RPGs are a niche hobby that some people work full time in because the economy supports full-time hobbyist now. I consider any full-time RPG developer to be a professional.
There is one big RPG product and I think more same-branded boardgames have been made for it than actual books.
There are endless RPGs now because the bar of acceptable quality is far more attainable than in actual industries and many creators make an RPG with no intent to make money.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1095501I'm disappointed either way. If David Guyll is NOT the guy who did YRIS, then I'm disappointed with the whoever did it for basically trying to frame him for it.
If he DID do it, I'm super-disappointed by this attempt to lie, instead of going "yeah, fuck it, I'm Iron Man" and going for it.
Exactly. It's a shit sandwich either way now.
Quote from: Thornhammer;1095507It is either a very important lesson about covering your ass better if you insist on being a colossal asshole online, or a terrifying lesson that you can get your shit messed up on a whim anymore.
Agreed. It also MIGHT be a lesson in that if you're unmasked, the correct answer is double down and flamethrow the assholes. Clearly, whoever writes YRIS knows how to throw down some A grade crazy bombs and seeing that go mano-a-SJW would have been very fun and earned the author new fans.
Quote from: JeremyR;1095529I looked at his publisher page and nothing appears to be OSR. Dungeon World, 5e, and his own game "Dungeons & Delvers" (which somehow evaded trademark problems) which doesn't seem very old school D&D ish.
Which is one of the main reasons for my skepticism: I don't buy that someone who expresses that much vitriol towards PbtA games would also be responsible for several hundred pages of Dungeon World content.
The Desborough interview laid out a pretty solid defense. The one thing I'd like to see David address is the claim that the site has been traced back to his hometown, but even that admits of explanation. The most likely explanation, it seems to me, is that a friend of a friend got hold of the screenshot. (The claims that this bit of evidence are 'conclusive' because it's a 'small town' of 38,000 people suggests to me that many leading this are extremely urbanized to the point where they can't comprehend than anything smaller than a major metropolitan area can still have a broad and diverse array of people.)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1095549...the claim that the site has been traced back to his hometown
So, I've seen this in a couple of places but haven't cared enough till now to dig deeper on it. What, exactly, does "hometown" mean in this context? Because if you tell me both the writer and the website both come from, say Atlanta or any other major city - where they tend to, you know, build data centers and have web hosting companies - then I'd say that's the thinnest fucking "evidence" I've literally ever come across for any kind of accusation, ever and the people who've latched onto it need to be summarily shot for the sheer stupidity of the thing. Hell, even a great many smaller cities leave you with a shockingly high chance for this kind of "coincidence". And I'm not talking about the small towns you find as part of a larger metropolitan area, either. I'm talking about proper towns that happen to be places where companies set up shop precisely because setting up in someplace like Atlanta is such a fucking nightmare.
Anyway, sorry for the ranty post. I'm not actually going to bother looking at where this guy and the website actually come from because I don't actually care. I'm more bothered by the
idea of the mob mentality latching onto, "kill him! he's from the same place as this really offensive website!"
Hmm. So this fellow gets accused of being the same that makes alot of offensive articles. Gets sloppy and traced. Then claims that is was really honest to god swear on my undead mothers grave that just by coincidence there is a server in the same town and obviously the mean article maker person is someone else! Really!
This isn't new. Ive seen these sorts of two-faced stunts far far more times than I ever want to see. Some pulling far far worse stunts. And hilariously at least 75% of the time it comes back to bite these jackasses in the ass as the very hate groups they were rabble rousing sooner or later target their pure and just cover because its never pure enough. Or someone figures out who is behind the mask.
Publishers, game designers, artists, etc.
That deflection is a big, smelly pile of...
...yup. That's right! :D
This wouldn't even be an issue if he simply owned his own work. There's nothing weird about harsh/caustic/mean spirited criticism. There's an entire medium of actual attack dog critiques, mainly for video games, on Youtube for example. I guess there could be stuff that he might have felt more comfortable writing about in anonymity but my opinion is if you aren't willing to own your opinion proudly then don't bother. I'll take an honest asshole over a sneaky one any day of the week.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1095549Which is one of the main reasons for my skepticism: I don't buy that someone who expresses that much vitriol towards PbtA games would also be responsible for several hundred pages of Dungeon World content.
The Desborough interview laid out a pretty solid defense. The one thing I'd like to see David address is the claim that the site has been traced back to his hometown, but even that admits of explanation. The most likely explanation, it seems to me, is that a friend of a friend got hold of the screenshot. (The claims that this bit of evidence are 'conclusive' because it's a 'small town' of 38,000 people suggests to me that many leading this are extremely urbanized to the point where they can't comprehend than anything smaller than a major metropolitan area can still have a broad and diverse array of people.)
His own self loathing could explain his desire for anonymity. It's the same phenomenon with fundamentalist ministers who preach hellfire for "the gays" then turns out they're chasing firemen behind the curtains.
As for the hometown size: if there's one gamer in a community, even a smallish one, then there are more. So yeah, it's not really a smoking gun...just evidence of smoke in the distance.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1095536Exactly. It's a shit sandwich either way now.
Agreed. It also MIGHT be a lesson in that if you're unmasked, the correct answer is double down and flamethrow the assholes. Clearly, whoever writes YRIS knows how to throw down some A grade crazy bombs and seeing that go mano-a-SJW would have been very fun and earned the author new fans.
Yeah I'm annoyed I never knew about this blog before and now I can't figure out what it was all about because this quasi-doxxing is my first encounter with it's existence. I'd love to see some crazy attack posts on PbtA style games, I'm intrigued at what would be causing this fellow such angry vitriole...but I can only go by second hand info.
I looked at the archive. I still don't know what the big deal is? Why not own it? There wasn't anything there I haven't seen posted here in some sentiment. Did he not think this wasn't going to happen? People are weird.
Yeah, to write all that DW material, then talk shit about it is just classless. But that's IF it's the same person. Beyond that, flamers have paydays. If you don't have the "funds" to handle it, don't be a flamer.
Quote from: cranebump;1095595Yeah, to write all that DW material, then talk shit about it is just classless. But that's IF it's the same person. Beyond that, flamers have paydays. If you don't have the "funds" to handle it, don't be a flamer.
Not if he thinks others are doing a poor job but happens to have his own vision. It feels to me like cowardice more than anything....a fear he will be attacked for his own works if he reveals that he's the one complaining about the works of others.
Quote from: camazotz;1095599Not if he thinks others are doing a poor job but happens to have his own vision. It feels to me like cowardice more than anything....a fear he will be attacked for his own works if he reveals that he's the one complaining about the works of others.
OTOH, he's ripped into some DW products publicly before, and even got accused of bias on TBP because of it.
I backed the Red Book Kickstarter, so I've been tracking a lot of this story. The conclusions I keep coming to are that the evidence is present but largely circumstantial, Guyll denies it, and 'someone else in his circle used or passed on the screenshot' has, when all factors are taken into account, about as much plausibility as 'he has been running a covert blog that doesn't line up with his game work in several ways.' This, pending further information or analysis, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1095604OTOH, he's ripped into some DW products publicly before, and even got accused of bias on TBP because of it.
I backed the Red Book Kickstarter, so I've been tracking a lot of this story. The conclusions I keep coming to are that the evidence is present but largely circumstantial, Guyll denies it, and 'someone else in his circle used or passed on the screenshot' has, when all factors are taken into account, about as much plausibility as 'he has been running a covert blog that doesn't line up with his game work in several ways.' This, pending further information or analysis, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
True.
On a related note: Why is it every time I ever see something going on in the PbtA crowd and Dungeon World in particular they all seem to have serious issues?
Quote from: camazotz;1095606True.
On a related note: Why is it every time I ever see something going on in the PbtA crowd and Dungeon World in particular they all seem to have serious issues?
My theory: Dungeon World has such stripped-down barebones mechanics that any idiot can "hack" it and make their own terrible game in a weekend. Making a game off of a more complex system like Savage Worlds takes actual work and time.
Quote from: tenbones;1095592I looked at the archive. I still don't know what the big deal is? Why not own it? There wasn't anything there I haven't seen posted here in some sentiment. Did he not think this wasn't going to happen? People are weird.
From experience these sorts never think its going to happen. Or if it does. They think their ready alibie of "it was someone else in the same area!" sorts of gags will fly. Or they think that they can just keep hiding behind their false front. White Wolf had at least two who would rabble rouse or spread disinformation under an moniker or posing as employees of TSR or WOTC way back for example.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1095604OTOH, he's ripped into some DW products publicly before, and even got accused of bias on TBP because of it.
I backed the Red Book Kickstarter, so I've been tracking a lot of this story. The conclusions I keep coming to are that the evidence is present but largely circumstantial, Guyll denies it, and 'someone else in his circle used or passed on the screenshot' has, when all factors are taken into account, about as much plausibility as 'he has been running a covert blog that doesn't line up with his game work in several ways.' This, pending further information or analysis, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Oh I can believe it. Its appallingly common in various venues. Why? I have no clue other than the age old one of using it as a covert platform to damage the competition. Money makes people crazy. Greed makes them sociopaths.
One publisher I worked with back in the 90s was pulling a two face tactic to damage competition. A major con manager was, and still is doing much the same. And another RPG publisher I used to be friends with turned out to be running
multiple false fronts, one a hate group while posing as part of the group he was trying to destroy. Artists artists and more damn artists.
Omega might have nailed it. Using fake fronts on the internet to damage your competition would be brain dead easy.
It's why I've often wondered how many of the Outrage Brigade might actually be 4channers having a laugh.
AKA, the 2019 version of prank calls.
Quote from: camazotz;1095599Not if he thinks others are doing a poor job but happens to have his own vision. It feels to me like cowardice more than anything....a fear he will be attacked for his own works if he reveals that he's the one complaining about the works of others.
That's a reasonable conclusion, I think.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1095781Omega might have nailed it. Using fake fronts on the internet to damage your competition would be brain dead easy.
It's why I've often wondered how many of the Outrage Brigade might actually be 4channers having a laugh.
AKA, the 2019 version of prank calls.
Oh I can guarantee you that some, possibly all, of these are deadly serious business moves to attack competition and/or promote their own product covertly. The lengths some have gone to is appalling really.
Sure there are some who are flat out hatemongers and I found out a former friend was going around forums inciting hate and violence towards certain groups. For the laughs. I have not spoken to him since and do not plan to ever again.
People let us reserved judgement until we actually have some fucking clue what is going on here. Seriously I am hearing some absolutely stupid conspiracy theories and this shit has got to stop.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1095848People let us reserved judgement until we actually have some fucking clue what is going on here. Seriously I am hearing some absolutely stupid conspiracy theories and this shit has got to stop.
Where? We've been mostly mulling over the dirty deeds of other groups while overall shrugging at the current event and applying a healthy dose of skepticism to the guys claim. Because we just had a month or two ago a designer claiming someone made mean posts using his computer. And here we have something similar. And then you wonder why anyone casts doubt?
At the same time take note most of us have taken the wait an see stance. It is suspicious. But weirder things have happened.
Personally. It reads too much like other stunts Ive had to deal with personally. Or seen in the process from the sidelines or the aftermath.
Quote from: Omega;1095881Where? We've been mostly mulling over the dirty deeds of other groups while overall shrugging at the current event and applying a healthy dose of skepticism to the guys claim. Because we just had a month or two ago a designer claiming someone made mean posts using his computer. And here we have something similar. And then you wonder why anyone casts doubt?
At the same time take note most of us have taken the wait an see stance. It is suspicious. But weirder things have happened.
Personally. It reads too much like other stunts Ive had to deal with personally. Or seen in the process from the sidelines or the aftermath.
It is just general stupidity really. Hell I was made to look like a fool in the Travon Martin case because I honestly believed that George Zimmerman was guilty of stalking and assaulting people. My perception of things was so bad I thought it happened in broad daylight. Pretty stupid I know and yes I am sorry for the things I sad about George. It was also the last time I actually gave any faith to TYT and the news media at large because they were dead set against the man.
Point is we don't know shit so we should just wait and see before we make any judgments. Unless you want to look foolish like how I was when George Zimmerman was found not guilty.
Of course. But as said, the old "it was just by coincidence someone else in my town/house/whatever that did it! Honest!" gag has been played before in various iterations.
Another example is a few months ago we had a designer up and delete all his files and posts. Then later pop in and claim that it was really all the work of a mean co-worker who, got access to his computer, and had his passwords and logged into the site, and knew the site well enough to totally wipe his account? And yet the designer has been acting surly and uncommunicative, and has not restored any of the lost material. hmmmm.
And thats the most recent one.
Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely? Not really. And I doubt we will ever know one way or the other unless someone digs hard enough to either expose the real culprit, or expose the accused as two-faced. Its a win-win situation either way if it happens.
Um, there is always the option of just ignoring this stupid shit and, you know, moving on.
Quote from: jeff37923;1095967Um, there is always the option of just ignoring this stupid shit and, you know, moving on.
I am saying you guys should just reserve your judgement till we have all the facts.
Welcome, rocksfalleverybodydies!
I've been friends with the "accused" for some time on FB, and although I don't know him particularly well, what I have heard about this blog doesn't jibe with what I've seen from him. Granted, that doesn't mean much in and of itself.
He did deny the accusation to me and claimed not to have known about the site having been taken down. He says he's laying low because he doesn't see anything he can say that will make things any better. And he's probably right. The SJWs are already taking his silence as "proof", of course, but they'll also take any defense as "just what an exposed undercover racist would say".
Quote from: Dan Davenport;1095983I've been friends with the "accused" for some time on FB, and although I don't know him particularly well, what I have heard about this blog doesn't jibe with what I've seen from him. Granted, that doesn't mean much in and of itself.
He did deny the accusation to me and claimed not to have known about the site having been taken down. He says he's laying low because he doesn't see anything he can say that will make things any better. And he's probably right. The SJWs are already taking his silence as "proof", of course, but they'll also take any defense as "just what an exposed undercover racist would say".
Locking down their social media is the
least incriminating thing they've done. It's their defense which really did them in (https://archive.is/U0ItN).
QuoteSomeone brought it up in a Discord server, because they knew I butted heads with Jacob before. Someone else wanted to know what the other guy was talking about, but was blocked by Jacob.
I surprisingly wasn't, so I took a screen shot to show him what the other guy was talking about.
Being blocked on #Twitter does not prevent one from reading someone's #Tweets, only from participating in the conversation, and anyone seeking dirt will know this. And the #Tweets David decided to share had nothing to do with how they "butted heads with Jacob before", and in particular featured an identifying photo.
And then there's the sequence of events involving the blog itself, where the image was edited to remove identifying information right before being taken down. This implies it was either David
or someone who cared about them, and if it's the latter
then why haven't they come forward? We can't assume it was a false flag op because David admitted to taking the screenshot.
And then's there's the geolocation data which puts the guilt party withing the same 11.03 square miles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grants_Pass,_Oregon#Geography) as David, which heavily suggest that they're either guilty or know the guilty party IRL. Yet they refuse to share the names of the people they shared the screencap with, so further correlations are impossible.
And then they chose to present their defense on Grim's channel
despite locking down their social media, which is about the last thing you'd want to do in cases like this. And while I don't think Grim is malicious, I do think they're
deeply naive and will ignore evidence which conflicts with the conclusions they want to make.
It's all circumstantial but significant, and were this a legal case I'd venture it'd be enough for a warrant.
As for the harm #YourRPGIsShit caused, try as I might the site was so over the top that I can't see how it hurt anyone else but the author. They were like the Uwe Boll of RPG reviews, and as such you could guarantee that anything they shit on was worth a look.
Judging by the archived version seems like a decent blog. Would read. Too bad it's gone.
Quote from: Morblot;1096033Judging by the archived version seems like a decent blog. Would read. Too bad it's gone.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190708195028/https://yourrpgisshit.wordpress.com/
Quote from: Morblot;1096033Judging by the archived version seems like a decent blog. Would read. Too bad it's gone.
My thoughts exactly.
@ Omega
All I will say is nice try to the game designer. If someone truly hacked thst person the right way to act is to try and get their missing files back.
Surly and uncommunicative screams idiot who deleted his stuff, realized he made a mistake. Will not admit. His behavior seems really shady for someone who was "hacked".
Quote from: sureshot;1096068@ Omega
All I will say is nice try to the game designer. If someone truly hacked thst person the right way to act is to try and get their missing files back.
Surly and uncommunicative screams idiot who deleted his stuff, realized he made a mistake. Will not admit. His behavior seems really shady for someone who was "hacked".
I really dont know anymore. I'm willing to give benefit of a doubt and maybe the designer is just surly because of what happened? But its been a couple of months now and hardly a peep. Everythings still gone far as I know. I kinda stopped paying attention after a point and he hasnt posted in over a month now. Id like to think that it is just frustration or RL hassles in the way. Or worst case scenario. He was keeping ALL his game design files at his work computer. ow.
This one may remain a mystery if he does not return.