Quote from: B.T.;540052D&D was never meant to override common sense.

Unfortunately, it seems like today's crop of D&D players need to have common sense spelled out in the rules, or else they can't figure out to handle it on their own.

Quote from: The Butcher;540017Yeah well, I should've seen it from a mile away, shouldn't I?

Quote from: Acta Est Fabula;540063Unfortunately, it seems like today's crop of D&D players need to have common sense spelled out in the rules, or else they can't figure out to handle it on their own.

It's not a lack of common sense. It's that they don't want a referee who may tell them no.

Fuck putting the sword out there in some hex waiting to be found. Turn that quest upside-down and let the Paladin find out that he needs to quest to make his own.

• Brave Mt. Killmoor to find holy ore!
• Steal dragonfire to power the forge!
• Find the mythical "armless, legless, blind" smith to shape it!
• Melt ice from the Murderfrost Glacier for the pure water to temper it!
• Prove your worthiness to the Gods of Law/Good to give the blade its breath of life!

That.
Would.
Be.
EPIC.

Quote from: Marleycat;539693Most of the responses generally agree with you guys.

Complete tangent: your cigar-smoking feline avatar was far superior to your current avatar.  

Player wants to consult a Sage to find a Holy Avenger.

DM rolls dice to see if there's a Sage in town.

If so, DM rolls dice to see if Sage knows where a Holy Avenger might be found.

If so, then DM places Holy Avenger in an appropriate place, possibly with aid of more random rolls.

Simple.

Quote from: LordVreeg;539713The friggin' Holy Dipshit Avenger exists, and depending on the rest of the data of the campaign, should be findable.

'xactly.

The dice aren't an intrinsic goal for sandboxes. The dice are there for 2 reasons in a sandbox AFAIAC:
1) To maintain a living, unknowable depth to the world
2) To make up the fact you can't plan everything and play sandboxy style.

There's no reason you should take any up front decision making about the world. Indeed, you think sandbox classics like Wilderlands were all randomly generated?

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;540166'xactly.

The dice aren't an intrinsic goal for sandboxes. The dice are there for 2 reasons in a sandbox AFAIAC:
1) To maintain a living, unknowable depth to the world
2) To make up the fact you can't plan everything and play sandboxy style.

There's no reason you should take any up front decision making about the world. Indeed, you think sandbox classics like Wilderlands were all randomly generated?

I agree. I like stochastic tools myself, but there is something to be said about things in due measure. Your points here are a good outline where to use said tools.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;540143Complete tangent: your cigar-smoking feline avatar was far superior to your current avatar.  

I'll bring him out again. I like to rotate them as the mood strikes but thanks!

The GM's error here is in not using emulation.  What he should have done is first have figured out what role Holy Avenger swords play in his world.  Are they common? Super rare? How many would there be?  Where would they be?

Next, instead of him making up some story-path by which to get the holy avenger sword, he should throw it back at the player: "Ok, so you want a holy avenger sword... you know X about holy avenger swords...what are you going to do to try to find one?".  Then let the player start his search; asking sages, finding out old legends about them, being told there might be one lost in some gods-forsaken gateway to hell somewhere, and then the hunt is on!

RPGPundit

Holy Avenger two-cent tangent-story:  How it went down in my game (this is 2e, years ago).  

The paladin wanted a holy avenger (or equivalent); upon saving the mage's life several times, the mage swore to find one for her.   As time passes, the mage follows the trail of information to figure out where the (singular) Holy Avenger was... at the center of the earth, placed there by a demigod (or whatever, I don't remember the details).

What came next was one of the most elaborate over-the-top player-schemes I've ever seen, whereby the mage finds a way to the center of the earth to claim the blade (never mind that the center of the planet was a roiling sphere of liquid wild magic, and the wizard came back near-death and incredibly screwed up for the rest of the campaign).  The whole quest took the party ten-plus levels of scheming (alongside doing their other adventure-y stuff).  Holy Avenger, delivered; and the sword was passed down to two generations of heroes as the campaign continued.

Epic.

I love random tables as much as anybody, but... I don't have any random tables to tell me to put the (one and only one) Holy Avenger at the center of the earth in a ball of killer magic.  That's DM out-of-the-ass creativity (boosted by this taking place during the high-school years, you understand).  Tables help, but they don't replace DM ideas or player willpower.