http://www.blackindustries.com/pdf/dh-scenarios/shattered-hope-big.pdf

Remarkably hardcore for a Games Workshop (ish) product these days - prisoners about to be executed, one of the suggested PCs executed her parents, and another is a convicted killer. Sorta. Loadsa bodies and parts of bodies and whatnot.

Course, I think the setup involves a large slice of everything that is wrong with roleplaying (all the PCs are unhelpful and obstructive and only one of the PCs has any pressing reason to go on the adventure. Or any adventure), but hey, its 40K dude!

Quote from: Erik Boiellehttp://www.blackindustries.com/pdf/dh-scenarios/shattered-hope-big.pdf

Remarkably hardcore for a Games Workshop (ish) product these days - prisoners about to be executed, one of the suggested PCs executed her parents, and another is a convicted killer. Sorta. Loadsa bodies and parts of bodies and whatnot.

Course, I think the setup involves a large slice of everything that is wrong with roleplaying (all the PCs are unhelpful and obstructive and only one of the PCs has any pressing reason to go on the adventure. Or any adventure), but hey, its 40K dude!

It looks somewhat interesting, and I may buy it, if only because I was so impressed with WFRP 2e. But I have a serious problem with the basic premise of this game. From looking at that sample adventure, you're either this amoral dude or outright evil dude following this more powerful psychotic, evil xenophobe. That just rubs me the wrong way.

WFRP 2e ALSO had a xenophobic atmosphere, but your characters were your own masters, and you didn't necessarily have to follow the strictures of the Empire. In Warhammer 40k, it looks like there's MUCH more pressure for the characters to be totally evil, psycho xenophobes themselves. Plus, in the sample adventure, the characters are part of someone else's retinue. I don't like that. :mad:

Everything in this game looks creepy and strange, maybe too creepy and strange. I'll consider picking up the core book before I reserve judgement on it though. :raise:

It confirms a lot of what I was saying from the very start that was wrong about the way they went about with this concept for 40K.

RPGPundit

Hmm...I'm not sure if that was the tone I was wanting for this.  Guess I'll be waiting to find out a bit more, but so far....not exactly what I hoping for.

I know this discussion has been done to death, but I would have made the three Warhammer 40k rpgs that will be coming out into ONE game line, for the sake of completion. Here's the thing. The Wahammer 40k, Dark Heresy looks interesting to me, but I DON'T want to be part of some douchebag Inquisitor's evil retinue. That doesn't interest me in the least. I'd rather be fighting against Inquisitors than be their slaves, and it sounds like that goes against the entire premise of the game. Bleh.

I don't know much about Warhammer mythology, but the other game coming up "Rogue Traders" might be more promising. Also, the third game with the Space Marines sounds cool, but I'd want to be one that went rogue, and is now his own master. I know, blasphemy! :haw:

Maybe I can be some dude that rebels against the Inquisitors, while still managing to bitch-slap some filthy mutants along the way. :cool:

The three games approach blows mighty chunks.

Give me a good, solid core book and then "splat" out the particular areas you want to go in to.

Looks like LUG's Trek stuff all over again to me.  

But, from a GMs standpoint, having the PCs on an Inquisitor's staff gives you the easy ability to put them wherever you wish "because the Emperor says so."  Very railroady to say the least, but perfect for limited / one-shot games.

They've got my money as long as they can get Abnett to provide some fluff-stuff for my piggy little eyes to devour.

Sacrificial Lambs comment confused me because the Inquisitor is never detailed, and the pregenerated characters are all in all pretty silly.

In fact similar comments seem instead to be blind indictments of the 40k universe, fair enough, its not for everyone.


My problem, or perhaps problems, stem from both the adventure design, which seems to go through unnatural contortions to put first level, broke ass, d&d characters into a dungeon crawl!  With crappy writing.

Lets review the facts

No organization would put raw recruits lacking even basic training in the organizations 'skill sets' to investigate a situation, particularly one deemed important to the stability of the entire region.  Certainly not without at least one veteran to watch over them. To put it into context: napoleonic british navy press gangs an entire ship crew, but puts one of the press ganged ship crewmen as the captain, then sends them forth to do battle?  Not hardly. Fresh conscripts can BOLSTER the ranks, but would never BE the ranks.  

Imperial guardsmen camp but no weapons (other than, oddly, grenades) can be given to said inquisitors?  Agents of the Inquisition should be able, no matter how puny their actual powerbase, requisition a simple lasgun or two.  No, the best they can do is some rope, and the 'one with tits' gets a courting gift of high explosives.  Silly.  

I skipped the actual dungeon crawl portion to the pregen writeups, but yeah... dungeon crawl, complete with maps. Wow.  never mind that A commisar has the authority and, arguably Duty, to send fire teams to purge any taint of chaos. Sure, its the inquisitions job to make sure it was done right, but yeah, in this case the Guard's job is to actually do the fighting, not a band of random adventurers.

Which brings us to the last point: Atrocious writing.  Inquisitors, investigating a chaos cult, seems bog simple, yo?  Lets make it a linear dungeon crawl, make it hard by not giving the 'Inquisition' any power, or even... gasp!... guns! (exaggeration, I'm sure there are SOME guns on the characters...)  and throw them into a hole in the ground. Lets name the commisar 'Nihilious', which is straight from the worst examples of 40k naming conventions... and then manages to exceed even them with its idiodicy as a name.  Oh, and we'll only use recycled artwork, and fluff text, its not like 40K fans need any new pictures or anything.:rolleyes:  Way to sell your product, guys.

Should I mention that one of the first 'tasks' the party can do is to intimidate the Guard Sergeant (to get more info about their fucking purpose!), but even the 'I kill sabertooth cats for fun' dude lacks the skill at all? AND they roll at a penalty?  Yup, 1st level D&D, only without actual levels or classes.

If this 'free demo' is AT ALL indicative of what Black Industries intends to do with their product I will be very, very disappointed.  I don't mind the mechanics (WHFRP is a solid design, if not entirely appropriate... I can certainly see an adaption of the existing 'career paths', where most of the 'exits' are to things like 'inquisitor' and 'interrogator' and other sub-professions within the inquisition itself. (though, criminal wouldn't be out of place either...).

Lets review: entirely recycled art, D&D style dungeon crawling and play, gawdawful adventure design.  If I weren't a long standing 40k geek*, I'd be avoiding this like the plague.


*I had, and have again, the original Rogue trader book, and I owned the original box set, though I didn't actually play until 3rd edition... damn the painting, damn it to the Eye of Terror!

Well, I think its worth remembering that GW is one of very few organisations where it is just possible that they might be selling this to kids as their first experience of a roleplaying game (er, take a look at the photos of kids playing WFRP at Games Day and whatnot) so I think its not to bad an idea to start off VERY BASIC.

I mean, they have name recognition among people who already play games, so its a worthwhile thing.

So its kinda good its pitched at you when you first looked at RPGs (anyone remember that? Mine was WFRP. Some guys were playing a game in the school. I joined in, and played, er, well, he had an axe. I got killed falling in to a pit. (I later discover this was the Oldenhaller Contract). A common feature of those really early game was that the GM, who had read the adventure, would fail to convey to the players what was going on (so instead of, okay, so your father has sent you on a mission to get the weapon of the gods from the tomb of olympus. Its an enormous sphere floating above the landscape. To get to the entrance, which is a thousand feet high you are carried on the wings of giant doves' he'd say 'Okay, so you get to the door' completely forgetting that only he had read the rulebook). Its not you or me these things are for, its for those guy all this is new to.

QuoteTo put it into context: napoleonic british navy press gangs an entire ship crew, but puts one of the press ganged ship crewmen as the captain, then sends them forth to do battle?

I mean, its worth noting that the poor french had to do exactly that, largely because every time they put to sea they got jumped on by the RN (who were one of the most startlingly effective organisations the world had ever seen) meaning they never had the chance to develop any kind of corporate competence, so the experienced core simply didn't exist because they had no way to practice.

And sometimes you just have to buy some time by throwing in what you have. Which see Russia in the Great Patriotic War.

Er, anyway, so while I don't much care for it all slagging of can be aimed directly at writer intentions instead of it not making some kind of 'sense'.

I think the little adventure is pretty atmospheric. The NPCs are pretty characterful and theres some nice colour (the door needs to be opened by a team of harnessed beast - it takes an hour to open it so the PCs are going to hear it rolling shut behind them and know they are sealed in.

It's also supposed to be run in three hours at a con, so it's gonna be short.

So I think it actually does a pretty good job of what it is supposed to do.

And theres more Gore than I'd expext from a GW thing, which I think is a good sign.

Quote from: SpikeSacrificial Lambs comment confused me because the Inquisitor is never detailed, and the pregenerated characters are all in all pretty silly.

Sorry, Spike...I didn't mean to confuse you. I'm actually a total n00b in regards to the Warhammer 40k universe, so I might be making some rookie misinterpretations of what the setting is about. I briefly skimmed though the adventure, and I wasn't quite liking it. I guess I just can't identify with anyone or anything I saw in that sample adventure.

Quote from: SpikeIn fact similar comments seem instead to be blind indictments of the 40k universe, fair enough, its not for everyone.


My problem, or perhaps problems, stem from both the adventure design, which seems to go through unnatural contortions to put first level, broke ass, d&d characters into a dungeon crawl!  With crappy writing.

Lets review the facts

No organization would put raw recruits lacking even basic training in the organizations 'skill sets' to investigate a situation, particularly one deemed important to the stability of the entire region.  Certainly not without at least one veteran to watch over them. To put it into context: napoleonic british navy press gangs an entire ship crew, but puts one of the press ganged ship crewmen as the captain, then sends them forth to do battle?  Not hardly. Fresh conscripts can BOLSTER the ranks, but would never BE the ranks.

Agreed.  

Quote from: SpikeImperial guardsmen camp but no weapons (other than, oddly, grenades) can be given to said inquisitors?  Agents of the Inquisition should be able, no matter how puny their actual powerbase, requisition a simple lasgun or two.  No, the best they can do is some rope, and the 'one with tits' gets a courting gift of high explosives.  Silly.  

I skipped the actual dungeon crawl portion to the pregen writeups, but yeah... dungeon crawl, complete with maps. Wow.  never mind that A commisar has the authority and, arguably Duty, to send fire teams to purge any taint of chaos. Sure, its the inquisitions job to make sure it was done right, but yeah, in this case the Guard's job is to actually do the fighting, not a band of random adventurers.

Which brings us to the last point: Atrocious writing.  Inquisitors, investigating a chaos cult, seems bog simple, yo?  Lets make it a linear dungeon crawl, make it hard by not giving the 'Inquisition' any power, or even... gasp!... guns! (exaggeration, I'm sure there are SOME guns on the characters...)  and throw them into a hole in the ground. Lets name the commisar 'Nihilious', which is straight from the worst examples of 40k naming conventions... and then manages to exceed even them with its idiodicy as a name.  Oh, and we'll only use recycled artwork, and fluff text, its not like 40K fans need any new pictures or anything.:rolleyes:  Way to sell your product, guys.

Should I mention that one of the first 'tasks' the party can do is to intimidate the Guard Sergeant (to get more info about their fucking purpose!), but even the 'I kill sabertooth cats for fun' dude lacks the skill at all? AND they roll at a penalty?  Yup, 1st level D&D, only without actual levels or classes.

If this 'free demo' is AT ALL indicative of what Black Industries intends to do with their product I will be very, very disappointed.  I don't mind the mechanics (WHFRP is a solid design, if not entirely appropriate... I can certainly see an adaption of the existing 'career paths', where most of the 'exits' are to things like 'inquisitor' and 'interrogator' and other sub-professions within the inquisition itself. (though, criminal wouldn't be out of place either...).

Lets review: entirely recycled art, D&D style dungeon crawling and play, gawdawful adventure design.  If I weren't a long standing 40k geek*, I'd be avoiding this like the plague.


*I had, and have again, the original Rogue trader book, and I owned the original box set, though I didn't actually play until 3rd edition... damn the painting, damn it to the Eye of Terror!

You read more of it than I did. I hated the layout. I'm a layout guy with a short attention span. If the layout isn't just right, then it's hard for me to pay attention to what I'm reading. I got bored. I'm only curious about this because it possesses a similiar ruleset to WFRP 2e. :shrug:

Quote from: Sacrificial LambSorry, Spike...I didn't mean to confuse you. I'm actually a total n00b in regards to the Warhammer 40k universe, so I might be making some rookie misinterpretations of what the setting is about. I briefly skimmed though the adventure, and I wasn't quite liking it. I guess I just can't identify with anyone or anything I saw in that sample adventure.

Not so much confused. Your description of the adventure reads very much like a reading of the 40k universe, where, as many die hard fans like to put it, everyone is a badguy, and the best you can hope for is that you wind up with the 'least evil choice'.

I just didn't see anything in the adventure, other than the fact that the nihilistic cultists were oppressed slaves, that would provoke ire over how dispicable the entirely offscreen inquisitor was...


So, in short: Warhammer 40k is a grim distopic violent setting, and complaining that it is grim, violent and distopic is, in a way, not 'getting it'.  You don't have to like it, but don't complain when the adventure presents the setting the way the fans expect it to look.


Complain, instead, that we are given a D&D adventure with WHFRP rules and the 40k settings as backdrop.




Erik: I thought you were all about the Iron Men and ultra violence? Surely having a crew of weak and poorly prepared 1st level characters does not fit your gaming style? I mean, aren't these poor bastards as poorly prepared for the adventure as your archetypical crew of Call of Cuthlu investigators? :confused:

Quote from: SpikeErik: I thought you were all about the Iron Men and ultra violence? Surely having a crew of weak and poorly prepared 1st level characters does not fit your gaming style? I mean, aren't these poor bastards as poorly prepared for the adventure as your archetypical crew of Call of Cuthlu investigators? :confused:

Oh, I'm ideologically opposed, but critising an apple for being an orange seems a little pointless.

I think it does what it is supposed to do pretty well.

It is what it is, and what it is looks pretty fun for what it is.

Hmmm...

After reading this, I do like the info on the world, the rebellion, and so on.  But, I'd think (after reading Eisenhorn, Ravenor, and other 40k stories) that Inquisitor's Helpers would have gotten a hell of a lot more respect (or fear) out of the people they were sent to help than what was implied.

That, and you'd have to be pretty on the ball to get tasked to join an Inquisitor's group anyway and I just didn't see that with these guys.  If anything, they'd have been hired on by the second or third circle of people who formed an Inquisitor's band to act as quick, expendable muscle.

Quote from: SpikeSo, in short: Warhammer 40k is a grim distopic violent setting, and complaining that it is grim, violent and distopic is, in a way, not 'getting it'.  You don't have to like it, but don't complain when the adventure presents the setting the way the fans expect it to look.


Complain, instead, that we are given a D&D adventure with WHFRP rules and the 40k settings as backdrop.

Spike, you're probably right. It is what it is. I'll at least look into it though. Who knows? The core book might pleasantly surprise me.

Quote from: SpikeI don't mind the mechanics (WHFRP is a solid design, if not entirely appropriate... I can certainly see an adaption of the existing 'career paths', where most of the 'exits' are to things like 'inquisitor' and 'interrogator' and other sub-professions within the inquisition itself. (though, criminal wouldn't be out of place either...).

I was on my way out when this caught my eye. I was hoping to use this game for a deconstructionist 40K campaign that I have in mind. But the mechanics in the demo booklet seem to have serious flaws that would prevent that.

So forgive some silly questions...

Do the rules in the demo fairly represent the core mechanics? I'm assuming with that question that they are nearly identical to the WHFRP ones (of which I know nothing).

Possible issues I saw:

1. Scaling (effect of character advancement) reminded me of problems with the orginal Runequest (think 99 BS vs 99 Dodge).

2. Hit Points instead of a wounding system combine with the single defense action per round would indicate the simple (and for me, non-genre) tactic of focused fire on a single target- move to next.

3. Direct linking of skill to Stat value would seem to limit a number of character concepts.

The rules on display looked to be a more or less straightforward port of the fantasy ruleset, that is I don't expect a hugely mechanical difference between the two.

So, to address the concerns you have:

The career paths can stack up some seriously good bonuses, but as far as I can tell it would be virtually impossible to rack up a 99% chance of doing anything, as it isn't 'addative' growth. Each career path has a cap of how high they can 'buff you' through advancement, and if a new path doesn't offer a higher total buff, then you simply can't advance in that area any further.

Wounds are a fixed total, more or less, and they drop very fast, and people can die very fast in the system. Ganging up increases the chance of victory and improves kill speeds, but a part of that is simply landing the hits, not whittling away points.  Its been a while since I've dinked with the system, but one shot drops are not all that hard, particularly with 'advanced' attackers (who hit more often, and usually stronger).

Yes and no.  there are a wide variety of 'talents' and 'skills' and it would take a stupidly long game to try to 'collect' them all on a single character. Defining a concept usually revolves around 'where am I from' more than mechanical differences, and it works, at least in fantasy, very well. While a rat catcher and a militia man may be virtually identical mechanically, in presentation and play it would take deliberate obtuseness to confuse the two.  This is the virtue of the 'backgrounds as generation' system. The vice of the system is that it can be very difficult to fit in a concept that the designer didn't think to add. Luckily, in fantasy (and from the looks of things, in the 40k variant) there will be plenty of options.   If constant character churning is something you enjoy, I suspect WHFRP and the W40kRP will grow boring. Yes one ratcatcher might be strong while another one might be smart, but after a while they are still just ratcatchers... Still it could take a while, I think there were some thirty odd 'starting careers' in the WHFRP book, and a dozen plus 'advanced careers' to push through (yes, moving generally goes 'starting career' another starting career (or two) then on to multiple advanced careers... leaving plenty of room for growth. Defining a charcter after play goes 'ratcatcher, marine, man at arms, Sergeant, mercenary Commmander (current career)', and a few minutes allows a player to more or less list your character with only a small margin of error for the variables.