It was never holy writ alignment, it was a propensity towards such alignment range, with exceptions assumed to be understood by mature readers (I know, never assume...).

That's why humans covered all 9 because there's wonderful examples of individuals & groups doing any of those ethoi in various shades within. (It's the only existing example we have, so sample size of one.) All other races are given these shorthand brushstrokes so as to keep things loosely thematic while having breadth of range for different tables. This way doesn't fix the creatures' cultures, groups, & individuals into something too precise to fit in one's own campaign.

It's like using animal analogs to empart a quick understanding of a new fictional creature; it's a way to tell quickly a relateable baseline that you can show later as nuanced difference. You cannot do all detailed & nuanced together at once from the beginning because then their shapes lose form amongst their muddled sameness. The Contrast makes thematic distinctions pop out in relief, which helps give narrative* thrust to the players' choices in a meaningful way. (*Narrative in this usage is its 3rd meaning about representing a situation's aims or values.) Too tonally similar often leaves confusion and disinterest in the situation.

PS: Also, you are all worthy of love and deserve a hug. Be kind, rewind!

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2023, 01:14:56 PM
What are your thoughts on the program by Macris?

I certainly think that he puts the nails down in all the handwringing Woke crybabies that REEE about "No, races shouldn't be EVIL!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmEFXSjEpcY

I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.


Further, his justification for this is stretching. He talks a bunch about Neanderthals, even suggesting that evil fantasy races all represent Neanderthals - and that competing biology represents some sort of moral mandate. I disagree. Modern humans do not have some sort of moral mandate to behave like our prehistoric ancestors. That's not a woke ideal - that's a message of Judaism, Christianity, and many other established religions, among others.

If he or anyone wants to make an RPG that is an atheist morality tale where orcs represent Neanderthals and all orcs should be wiped out, that's fine. It's just a game. But it's not how all fantasy games should be. Fantasy campaigns should be different from each other, and represent different themes.

   I agree with you for the most part, but Conan DOES have evil races.   What Conan does not have is Good races.

If the EXCEPTION is a good Orc it follows that the vast majority are EVIL, it's basic logic.

Why do you think the woke REEEEEEEEEEEEEE against words as normal/abnormal? They asign a moral judgment when those words only describe what the vast majority of a species does/is:

For instance humans are normally heterosexual, ergo being heterosexual is normal, there's no value/moral judgement.

Now extrapollate to EVIL races: It's NORMAL for an Orc  to be Evil (of course here there IS a moral/value judgement), ergo if you want one that isn't you make an exception.

Feel free to use other words like propensity, tendency, etc. Fact is Orcs ARE evil and you might encounter one that ISN'T, but that Orc would constitute an exception to the rule not prove the rule is wrong.

The vast majority of Mammals give birth to live offspring, monothremes existing doesn't disprove the fact.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 28, 2023, 02:27:19 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Further, his justification for this is stretching. He talks a bunch about Neanderthals, even suggesting that evil fantasy races all represent Neanderthals - and that competing biology represents some sort of moral mandate. I disagree. Modern humans do not have some sort of moral mandate to behave like our prehistoric ancestors. That's not a woke ideal - that's a message of Judaism, Christianity, and many other established religions, among others.

If he or anyone wants to make an RPG that is an atheist morality tale where orcs represent Neanderthals and all orcs should be wiped out, that's fine. It's just a game. But it's not how all fantasy games should be. Fantasy campaigns should be different from each other, and represent different themes.

   I agree with you for the most part, but Conan DOES have evil races.   What Conan does not have is Good races.

That's possible, and I'm prepared to concede that. I'd be curious to know what you are thinking of. GeekyBugle cited "The Iron Shadows in the Moon" which has gray man-eating apes on a remote island. I feel that's more a beast than an evil race, but I'll concede that they can be considered an evil race. There is probably some other story or stories I'm forgetting.

Broadly, in the R.E. Howard stories, Conan overwhelmingly fights other humans. There are some rare appearances of non-human beings, like the elephant-headed alien in the tower Yag-Kosha, but we know almost nothing about them - and it's hard to judge whether they are innately evil as a race. Also, I recall Conan had what he thought might be a dream fighting frost giants, but we don't even know if they were real. I'll grant there is probably some story I don't remember that has an evil race in it, but I don't think evil races are necessary for a Conan game.

Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2023, 03:31:48 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 28, 2023, 02:27:19 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Further, his justification for this is stretching. He talks a bunch about Neanderthals, even suggesting that evil fantasy races all represent Neanderthals - and that competing biology represents some sort of moral mandate. I disagree. Modern humans do not have some sort of moral mandate to behave like our prehistoric ancestors. That's not a woke ideal - that's a message of Judaism, Christianity, and many other established religions, among others.

If he or anyone wants to make an RPG that is an atheist morality tale where orcs represent Neanderthals and all orcs should be wiped out, that's fine. It's just a game. But it's not how all fantasy games should be. Fantasy campaigns should be different from each other, and represent different themes.

   I agree with you for the most part, but Conan DOES have evil races.   What Conan does not have is Good races.

That's possible, and I'm prepared to concede that. I'd be curious to know what you are thinking of. GeekyBugle cited "The Iron Shadows in the Moon" which has gray man-eating apes on a remote island. I feel that's more a beast than an evil race, but I'll concede that they can be considered an evil race. There is probably some other story or stories I'm forgetting.

Broadly, in the R.E. Howard stories, Conan overwhelmingly fights other humans. There are some rare appearances of non-human beings, like the elephant-headed alien in the tower Yag-Kosha, but we know almost nothing about them - and it's hard to judge whether they are innately evil as a race. Also, I recall Conan had what he thought might be a dream fighting frost giants, but we don't even know if they were real. I'll grant there is probably some story I don't remember that has an evil race in it, but I don't think evil races are necessary for a Conan game.

We do know the giants are real. He still has the woman's veil when he wakes up. Therrs also that old race from Queen of the Black Coast that had basically died out i recall being evil, but its been years since ive read that one.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 28, 2023, 03:07:30 PM
If the EXCEPTION is a good Orc it follows that the vast majority are EVIL, it's basic logic.

Why do you think the woke REEEEEEEEEEEEEE against words as normal/abnormal? They asign a moral judgment when those words only describe what the vast majority of a species does/is:

For instance humans are normally heterosexual, ergo being heterosexual is normal, there's no value/moral judgement.

Now extrapollate to EVIL races: It's NORMAL for an Orc  to be Evil (of course here there IS a moral/value judgement), ergo if you want one that isn't you make an exception.

Feel free to use other words like propensity, tendency, etc. Fact is Orcs ARE evil and you might encounter one that ISN'T, but that Orc would constitute an exception to the rule not prove the rule is wrong.

The vast majority of Mammals give birth to live offspring, monothremes existing doesn't disprove the fact.

"I'm now forced to accept that Orc were never inherently evil. But I can still prove to you that they are, because LOLgic."



This argument was never about what's "normal" or commonplace, but about what's inherent, immutable or "innate". NO ONE at ANY point throughout this discussion argued against "normalcy". And something being typical within a given population does not make it "logical" to blanketly apply that label to the entire population, regardless.

Human beings are not a "heterosexual" species. They are a sexually reproductive species, that's it. The majority might tend towards what we refer to as "heterosexual" preferences or behavior, but these labels are merely a social convention concocted in the modern age with no solid scientific basis. There's no clear consensus on where heterosexuality ends and bisexual tendencies begin, or to what extend environmental factors (like being in prison or having homosexual sex at an early age) might affect sexuality. And humans could just as well be bisexual or even homosexual for that matter (plenty of gay people still have kids even at this day and age), and still sexually reproduce. For some species of sexually reproducing animals, sexual reproduction is largely a matter of hormones rather than sexual preference. Sexuality is an aside.

To refer to humans as a "heterosexual" species would be asinine, and a desperate reach to desperately attempt to "win" this argument. And NOBODY has ever referred to humans as a species that way. Nobody has ever said "Humans ARE heterosexual (as in PERIOD). So to claim that "humans are normally heterosexual, therefore Orcs ARE evil, and that's a 'FACT'" would make no sense. This is not how logic works.

I think that evil races are very rare on REH's Conan stories. In Shadows in the Moonlight, the main villains are ordinary men, who are transformed into statues by an angry god, so not a separate species to humans. There's also a man-ape in the story, but it's just a beast. The giants in The Frost Giant's Daughter are children of a god, and I suspect gods themselves. I don't think that would count as a race, but I might be wrong. In Queen of the Black Coast, it's a race of winged apes, but they appear to have been good to start with (they are described as gods), then turned evil when their water source was poisoned. And since there's just one left when Conan arrives, it's not even a species at that point.

The clearest example I can think of is from Pool of the Black Ones, where there is an evil non-human species. So such races certainly exist, but the vast majority of those stories don't have evil races in them and do just fine without them. Also, there's no pre-known evil race, like orcs or goblins, that Conan just knows are evil in advance.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

It actually works great for science fiction- the broad idea that "intelligent tool-user" is inimical to other things (with some other assumptions that block out the possibilities of meaningful diplomacy) is touched on in the excellent-but-overrated novel The Dark Forest.  The idea in its more reasonable interpretation is discussed in other media, that has humans able to ally easily with species that inhabit gas giants and airless small rocky worlds than they are other oxygen breathers.  You can also make the case that in most science fiction, the ability to educate, deal peaceably, respect borders, etc., makes humans dealing with Vulkans or Spathi much more like humans dealing with other nations of humans- something arguably impossible for Neanderthals and our own ancestors, in the example provided in the video. 

Quote from: KrisSnow on September 24, 2023, 07:01:03 PM
Maybe relevant: a discussion of why cults make good antagonists, by providing PCs something clearly Evil to kill while being small enough for a band of 3-6 people to reasonably take on. https://udan-adan.blogspot.com/2017/10/cults-cultists-and-d.html

Really good point I think.  It is skirting the issue though- the debate that gets talked about often involves if someone or something can be born bad.  The video makes the point that they can be born incompatible, and then makes the case that this is the same thing.  I don't see why a species or race couldn't be genetically or magically (or both) born to be cowards, born to hate humans, born to be greedy or tricky or just genocidal.  There's no reason to assume that these things are impossible, and indeed, many animals have such urges built in as instincts.  Bees that form a heat ball when invaded by hornets have an inbuilt desire to kill such things, even if the instinctual behavior isn't technically classic aggression.  But it's destructive to the invader nonetheless.

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings.

I feel he's making the case that these settings might actually be improved by the existence of evil races.  Certainly Howard's own evil "serpent men" have been dropped into later Conan media to pretty good effect.

Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2023, 03:31:48 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 28, 2023, 02:27:19 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Further, his justification for this is stretching. He talks a bunch about Neanderthals, even suggesting that evil fantasy races all represent Neanderthals - and that competing biology represents some sort of moral mandate. I disagree. Modern humans do not have some sort of moral mandate to behave like our prehistoric ancestors. That's not a woke ideal - that's a message of Judaism, Christianity, and many other established religions, among others.

If he or anyone wants to make an RPG that is an atheist morality tale where orcs represent Neanderthals and all orcs should be wiped out, that's fine. It's just a game. But it's not how all fantasy games should be. Fantasy campaigns should be different from each other, and represent different themes.

   I agree with you for the most part, but Conan DOES have evil races.   What Conan does not have is Good races.

That's possible, and I'm prepared to concede that. I'd be curious to know what you are thinking of. GeekyBugle cited "The Iron Shadows in the Moon" which has gray man-eating apes on a remote island. I feel that's more a beast than an evil race, but I'll concede that they can be considered an evil race. There is probably some other story or stories I'm forgetting.

Broadly, in the R.E. Howard stories, Conan overwhelmingly fights other humans. There are some rare appearances of non-human beings, like the elephant-headed alien in the tower Yag-Kosha, but we know almost nothing about them - and it's hard to judge whether they are innately evil as a race. Also, I recall Conan had what he thought might be a dream fighting frost giants, but we don't even know if they were real. I'll grant there is probably some story I don't remember that has an evil race in it, but I don't think evil races are necessary for a Conan game.

Are you fucking kidding me!?

Quote
"Yagkoolan yok tha, xuthalla!"

Does that refresh your memory? If not then read from chapter 2 http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0600971h.html

Quote
Know, oh prince, that between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities, and the years of the rise of the Sons of Aryas, there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars.

Robert E. Howard

Now tell me again the Serpent Men from Kull do not apply to Conan, I'm dying to hear your reasoning.

There's always Star Fire New Empire's approach to alignment.  You roll percentile for your race, and for each race they encounter.  If the rolls are close together, they get along, if the rolls are far apart they don't.  No need for moral discussions.

I did always like the bit of early Warhammer 40k fluff from an ad in Dragon Magazine.  When humanity finally discovered another intelligent species they went to great lengths to prepare for a diplomatic and friendly first contact but when the diplomats first saw each other they both decided they didn't like what they saw, drew their side arms and started shooting.  The Orks were the newly encountered race.

Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2023, 03:31:48 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 28, 2023, 02:27:19 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Further, his justification for this is stretching. He talks a bunch about Neanderthals, even suggesting that evil fantasy races all represent Neanderthals - and that competing biology represents some sort of moral mandate. I disagree. Modern humans do not have some sort of moral mandate to behave like our prehistoric ancestors. That's not a woke ideal - that's a message of Judaism, Christianity, and many other established religions, among others.

If he or anyone wants to make an RPG that is an atheist morality tale where orcs represent Neanderthals and all orcs should be wiped out, that's fine. It's just a game. But it's not how all fantasy games should be. Fantasy campaigns should be different from each other, and represent different themes.

   I agree with you for the most part, but Conan DOES have evil races.   What Conan does not have is Good races.

That's possible, and I'm prepared to concede that. I'd be curious to know what you are thinking of. GeekyBugle cited "The Iron Shadows in the Moon" which has gray man-eating apes on a remote island. I feel that's more a beast than an evil race, but I'll concede that they can be considered an evil race. There is probably some other story or stories I'm forgetting.

Broadly, in the R.E. Howard stories, Conan overwhelmingly fights other humans. There are some rare appearances of non-human beings, like the elephant-headed alien in the tower Yag-Kosha, but we know almost nothing about them - and it's hard to judge whether they are innately evil as a race. Also, I recall Conan had what he thought might be a dream fighting frost giants, but we don't even know if they were real. I'll grant there is probably some story I don't remember that has an evil race in it, but I don't think evil races are necessary for a Conan game.

   The ape is not what he was talking about, the actual iron shadows were an evil race cursed for eternity and were the real danger on the island, not the ape.   The frost giants were real, because we see the Atali's clothing in his hands as he is talking to the Aesir about his encounter.   I agree they are not necessary and there are a whole lot of dark grey, but like I said there are unquestionably evil races...even if not evil to the last man...and given Howards....."worldview"....there are certain races that are most certainly portrayed as degenerate amoral savages....perhaps not capital E evil...but....not people you are going to want to rub elbows with.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 29, 2023, 09:00:24 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 28, 2023, 03:31:48 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 28, 2023, 02:27:19 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Further, his justification for this is stretching. He talks a bunch about Neanderthals, even suggesting that evil fantasy races all represent Neanderthals - and that competing biology represents some sort of moral mandate. I disagree. Modern humans do not have some sort of moral mandate to behave like our prehistoric ancestors. That's not a woke ideal - that's a message of Judaism, Christianity, and many other established religions, among others.

If he or anyone wants to make an RPG that is an atheist morality tale where orcs represent Neanderthals and all orcs should be wiped out, that's fine. It's just a game. But it's not how all fantasy games should be. Fantasy campaigns should be different from each other, and represent different themes.

   I agree with you for the most part, but Conan DOES have evil races.   What Conan does not have is Good races.

That's possible, and I'm prepared to concede that. I'd be curious to know what you are thinking of. GeekyBugle cited "The Iron Shadows in the Moon" which has gray man-eating apes on a remote island. I feel that's more a beast than an evil race, but I'll concede that they can be considered an evil race. There is probably some other story or stories I'm forgetting.

Broadly, in the R.E. Howard stories, Conan overwhelmingly fights other humans. There are some rare appearances of non-human beings, like the elephant-headed alien in the tower Yag-Kosha, but we know almost nothing about them - and it's hard to judge whether they are innately evil as a race. Also, I recall Conan had what he thought might be a dream fighting frost giants, but we don't even know if they were real. I'll grant there is probably some story I don't remember that has an evil race in it, but I don't think evil races are necessary for a Conan game.

   The ape is not what he was talking about, the actual iron shadows were an evil race cursed for eternity and were the real danger on the island, not the ape.   The frost giants were real, because we see the Atali's clothing in his hands as he is talking to the Aesir about his encounter.   I agree they are not necessary and there are a whole lot of dark grey, but like I said there are unquestionably evil races...even if not evil to the last man...and given Howards....."worldview"....there are certain races that are most certainly portrayed as degenerate amoral savages....perhaps not capital E evil...but....not people you are going to want to rub elbows with.

Or degenerate immoral decadents, like the Hyperboreans? (I think I got it right but if not the white people from far north who are ruled by wizards and witches and like to murder and enslave other people).

Quote from: Venka on September 28, 2023, 05:13:01 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

It actually works great for science fiction- the broad idea that "intelligent tool-user" is inimical to other things (with some other assumptions that block out the possibilities of meaningful diplomacy) is touched on in the excellent-but-overrated novel The Dark Forest.  The idea in its more reasonable interpretation is discussed in other media, that has humans able to ally easily with species that inhabit gas giants and airless small rocky worlds than they are other oxygen breathers.  You can also make the case that in most science fiction, the ability to educate, deal peaceably, respect borders, etc., makes humans dealing with Vulkans or Spathi much more like humans dealing with other nations of humans- something arguably impossible for Neanderthals and our own ancestors, in the example provided in the video. 

OK, I haven't read The Dark Forest, so I have to do that before I address it.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 29, 2023, 04:17:45 PM
OK, I haven't read The Dark Forest, so I have to do that before I address it.

Well in that case I won't spoil it for you further.  First read The Three Body Problem, as The Dark Forest is a direct sequel (if you're in a hurry it reads fine by itself, but both are pretty good). 

There's a third novel, but if I could unread it I would.  On top of being awful, it also ruins many of the fundamental premises that made the first two work.

Quote from: Venka on September 29, 2023, 05:11:47 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 29, 2023, 04:17:45 PM
OK, I haven't read The Dark Forest, so I have to do that before I address it.

Well in that case I won't spoil it for you further.  First read The Three Body Problem, as The Dark Forest is a direct sequel (if you're in a hurry it reads fine by itself, but both are pretty good). 

There's a third novel, but if I could unread it I would.  On top of being awful, it also ruins many of the fundamental premises that made the first two work.

OK, first of all, Liu Cixin is definitely the product of Communist China. His cultural paranoia oozes through that text.

Second, I agree that you don't explore interstellar space by being either technological luddites or not aggressive as a species. I do believe that such a species doesn't survive that stage without curbing some of that aggression because the same technology that allows you to explore interstellar space allows you to destroy planets as well, including your own homeworld. Liu Cixin gives you only a very binary choice of either being the killer or the prey if you are an interstellar society and we are back with Good vs Evil only.

For those not following, here is a short video explaining the problem.



EDIT: Something else to consider. Any civilization that is technologically capable of interstellar travel is also capable of terraforming worlds, building free-flying space colonies, and advanced waste recycling. They are really not going to be interested in fighting over material resources because there are plenty out there.