Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 10:36:05 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:13:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Nazi isn't a race but an ideology.

Every nazi was part of the human race.

So no, woke games aren't fine with having evil races, except when they are made by some "minority" and cast ALL people of European descent as evil, a la Coyote & Crow, and every other Afro-Futurist game/setting.

Gotta love a guy who's always accusing people of launching StRaWmEn and loses his shit anytime he thinks someone even remotely misrepresented him somehow go out of his way to ignore context and twist something someone said.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 09:43:25 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 25, 2023, 09:38:44 PM
I think Macris is slightly off target here (though the core thrust of his argument is sound).

RPG campaigns need antagonists.

If everyone you cross paths with is just 'misunderstood' or 'not really evil'... what's the point of fighting? Now, granted, if you wanted to run some kind of strange social-fu game, I guess this would work. Kinda. I suppose it's an interesting idea.

But that's not what we're after. So we need antagonists. People we can fight and not have to worry about 'but what about their point of view?'. Because they're the bad guys. Doesn't matter if they're undead, monstrous races, aliens, or whatever.

Yeah, that's pretty much what he is arguing.  But, as you know, whenever someone makes a declarative statement, the usual suspects suddenly become smooth-brained and can't see anything but "Absolutes bad!"

I wonder who these people are, since even jhkim said he's OK with innately evil races in his elfgames, and no one's actually said that absolutes are bad. The only harsh arguments going on have been against Geeky's sTrAwMeN. But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

Who said this?

QuoteAnd not all games need to include inherently evil races for there to be something to do. Just potentially evil or at least antagonistic will do.

I'm living rent free in the head of this particular "enlightened centrist" smoothbrain.

VS doesn't argue in good faith EVER, your best course of action IMNSHO is to put him on ignore.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 10:44:11 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:13:06 PM
But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

In order to lie to or about you, I'd have to care about you.  Which I don't.  I'm not emotionally involved in some rando on an OSR board that... doesn't even like OSR.  At least I'm a fan of OSR and play it regularly.  I mean, if we're going for levels of pathetic here, you've got me beaten by a mile.  I'm fine just pointing and laughing...

I never said you were lying about me specifically, and this isn't an OSR board, but a TTRPG board ostensibly dedicated to discussing TTRPGs in general. It just happens to be primarily, but not exclusively dominated by OSR now, cuz most of the old posters left, and most that remain are either fans of the site owner, who's an OSR designer, or embroiled in the culture war.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 10:50:08 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 10:36:05 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:13:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Nazi isn't a race but an ideology.

Every nazi was part of the human race.

So no, woke games aren't fine with having evil races, except when they are made by some "minority" and cast ALL people of European descent as evil, a la Coyote & Crow, and every other Afro-Futurist game/setting.

Gotta love a guy who's always accusing people of launching StRaWmEn and loses his shit anytime he thinks someone even remotely misrepresented him somehow go out of his way to ignore context and twist something someone said.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 09:43:25 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 25, 2023, 09:38:44 PM
I think Macris is slightly off target here (though the core thrust of his argument is sound).

RPG campaigns need antagonists.

If everyone you cross paths with is just 'misunderstood' or 'not really evil'... what's the point of fighting? Now, granted, if you wanted to run some kind of strange social-fu game, I guess this would work. Kinda. I suppose it's an interesting idea.

But that's not what we're after. So we need antagonists. People we can fight and not have to worry about 'but what about their point of view?'. Because they're the bad guys. Doesn't matter if they're undead, monstrous races, aliens, or whatever.

Yeah, that's pretty much what he is arguing.  But, as you know, whenever someone makes a declarative statement, the usual suspects suddenly become smooth-brained and can't see anything but "Absolutes bad!"

I wonder who these people are, since even jhkim said he's OK with innately evil races in his elfgames, and no one's actually said that absolutes are bad. The only harsh arguments going on have been against Geeky's sTrAwMeN. But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

Who said this?

QuoteAnd not all games need to include inherently evil races for there to be something to do. Just potentially evil or at least antagonistic will do.

I'm living rent free in the head of this particular "enlightened centrist" smoothbrain.

VS doesn't argue in good faith EVER, your best course of action IMNSHO is to put him on ignore.

This post brought to you by the guy whose every single reply post, except maybe one, has involved some attempt to misconstrue or uncharitably interpret what the other poster said.

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:55:51 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 10:44:11 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:13:06 PM
But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

In order to lie to or about you, I'd have to care about you.  Which I don't.  I'm not emotionally involved in some rando on an OSR board that... doesn't even like OSR.  At least I'm a fan of OSR and play it regularly.  I mean, if we're going for levels of pathetic here, you've got me beaten by a mile.  I'm fine just pointing and laughing...

I never said you were lying about me specifically, and this isn't an OSR board, but a TTRPG board ostensibly dedicated to discussing TTRPGs in general. It just happens to be primarily, but not exclusively dominated by OSR now, cuz most of the old posters left, and most that remain are either fans of the site owner, who's an OSR designer, or embroiled in the culture war.

So, a board run by an OSR designer, where most of the posters are, by your own admission, primarily fans of the OSR.  The jokes just write themselves, at this point...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 11:10:23 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:55:51 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 10:44:11 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:13:06 PM
But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

In order to lie to or about you, I'd have to care about you.  Which I don't.  I'm not emotionally involved in some rando on an OSR board that... doesn't even like OSR.  At least I'm a fan of OSR and play it regularly.  I mean, if we're going for levels of pathetic here, you've got me beaten by a mile.  I'm fine just pointing and laughing...

I never said you were lying about me specifically, and this isn't an OSR board, but a TTRPG board ostensibly dedicated to discussing TTRPGs in general. It just happens to be primarily, but not exclusively dominated by OSR now, cuz most of the old posters left, and most that remain are either fans of the site owner, who's an OSR designer, or embroiled in the culture war.

So, a board run by an OSR designer, where most of the posters are, by your own admission, primarily fans of the OSR.  The jokes just write themselves, at this point...

I'm sure Pundit's intent is for this board to be exclusively OSR, as opposed to getting traffic from as many TTRPG gamers regardless of their preference as possible.

EDIT/PS: I wonder were the OSR label is in this pic...


Pundit should probably change it to read "A form for discussing OSR games". You should tell him he had his banner done wrong.

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 11:15:24 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 11:10:23 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:55:51 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 10:44:11 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:13:06 PM
But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

In order to lie to or about you, I'd have to care about you.  Which I don't.  I'm not emotionally involved in some rando on an OSR board that... doesn't even like OSR.  At least I'm a fan of OSR and play it regularly.  I mean, if we're going for levels of pathetic here, you've got me beaten by a mile.  I'm fine just pointing and laughing...

I never said you were lying about me specifically, and this isn't an OSR board, but a TTRPG board ostensibly dedicated to discussing TTRPGs in general. It just happens to be primarily, but not exclusively dominated by OSR now, cuz most of the old posters left, and most that remain are either fans of the site owner, who's an OSR designer, or embroiled in the culture war.

So, a board run by an OSR designer, where most of the posters are, by your own admission, primarily fans of the OSR.  The jokes just write themselves, at this point...

I'm sure Pundit's intent is for this board to be exclusively OSR, as opposed to getting traffic from as many TTRPG gamers regardless of their preference as possible.

EDIT/PS: I wonder were the OSR label is in this pic...


Pundit should probably change it to read "A form for discussing OSR games". You should tell him he had his banner done wrong.

And you think that makes it better?  SMH...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 11:10:23 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:55:51 PM
I never said you were lying about me specifically, and this isn't an OSR board, but a TTRPG board ostensibly dedicated to discussing TTRPGs in general. It just happens to be primarily, but not exclusively dominated by OSR now, cuz most of the old posters left, and most that remain are either fans of the site owner, who's an OSR designer, or embroiled in the culture war.

So, a board run by an OSR designer, where most of the posters are, by your own admission, primarily fans of the OSR.  The jokes just write themselves, at this point...

Eirikrautha, you registered on this board in 2019. I registered back in 2006. It certainly wasn't an OSR board back in 2006. Back then, Pundit hadn't published anything - and he was playing True20.

If this is an "OSR board" because a bunch of OSR people signed up and started talking about different stuff here, then by that logic, a bunch of people coming and playing D&D differently changes what "D&D" is.

It's the same thing. A bunch of newbies like you come in and think they can define what the "real thing" is, ignoring the people who have been playing the whole time.

I wonder where does the "Orcs don't have to be evil!" thing end, making Megatron and the Decepticons into morally grey sorta heroes?

Greetings!

Well, I'm all for "Variety, Nuance, and Depth"--however, it strikes me that saying *THAT* on one hand, and saying that "There shouldn't be inherently EVIL races in a campaign world are two distinctly different things.

Come on, people. Stop being smarmy and disingenuous. Throughout D&D's history--even back in the day--there was neutral Orcs and Good-aligned Ogres. Then, of course, there arrived everyone's favourite goody-goody Drow Elf Ranger, Drizzt Do'Urden. While such things existed--and many people embraced such racial exceptions for their campaigns, no one was arguing that there "Shouldn't be Inherently Evil Races in a campaign."

No reasonable person is attacking a mature, reasonable DM or player that desires some variety or nuance in racial exceptions in a game campaign. The argument is targeted square-away at the eye-rolling, smug, pussy-cuck crybabies that shriek about how racist, phobic, Colonial, Supremacist, and toxic gamers are that want traditional races and frameworks in the campaign to remain an essential part of the campaign and game foundation.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on September 26, 2023, 01:07:59 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 11:10:23 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:55:51 PM
I never said you were lying about me specifically, and this isn't an OSR board, but a TTRPG board ostensibly dedicated to discussing TTRPGs in general. It just happens to be primarily, but not exclusively dominated by OSR now, cuz most of the old posters left, and most that remain are either fans of the site owner, who's an OSR designer, or embroiled in the culture war.

So, a board run by an OSR designer, where most of the posters are, by your own admission, primarily fans of the OSR.  The jokes just write themselves, at this point...

Eirikrautha, you registered on this board in 2019. I registered back in 2006. It certainly wasn't an OSR board back in 2006. Back then, Pundit hadn't published anything - and he was playing True20.

If this is an "OSR board" because a bunch of OSR people signed up and started talking about different stuff here, then by that logic, a bunch of people coming and playing D&D differently changes what "D&D" is.

It's the same thing. A bunch of newbies like you come in and think they can define what the "real thing" is, ignoring the people who have been playing the whole time.

Ahhh, I was waiting for the, "I've been here longer than you."  It completes the I Haven't Got Anything Relevant To Say board nicely.  Now do the logical fallacies; I've still got spaces open...

P.S. "Old School" describes a style of play intended to simulate (mostly) the way many of us played D&D back in the late 70s and early 80s.  Pretty sure those of us who played back then aren't the newbies (regardless of when we registered on any particular website).  Pretty sure VisionStorm wasn't playing back then...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 11:31:39 PM
And you think that makes it better?  SMH...

No clue WTF you mean by that. But then again this entire line of questioning makes no sense, outside it being some sort of gotcha line of deflection for the fact you have no real arguments. So you have to make it about attacking me by resorting to implying that I'm wrong somehow by virtue of posting in a so-called "OSR board" while not worshiping at the altar of Gary Gygax.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 26, 2023, 01:19:45 AM
I wonder where does the "Orcs don't have to be evil!" thing end, making Megatron and the Decepticons into morally grey sorta heroes?

The same way that the Galactic Empire became made up of morally gray sorta heroes when George Lucas failed to make humans innately evil?

Besides, as SHARK pointed out, there have always been non-evil orcs, ogres, whatever. Orcs never had to be evil, they just usually were. Creature alignment has always been a tendency in D&D, outside of certain supernatural creatures.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 26, 2023, 01:19:45 AM
I wonder where does the "Orcs don't have to be evil!" thing end, making Megatron and the Decepticons into morally grey sorta heroes?

  That's been around for at least 30 years, back when all there was were the original G1 toys, cartoons and comics.

Quote from: SHARK on September 26, 2023, 06:05:53 AM
Greetings!

Well, I'm all for "Variety, Nuance, and Depth"--however, it strikes me that saying *THAT* on one hand, and saying that "There shouldn't be inherently EVIL races in a campaign world are two distinctly different things.

Come on, people. Stop being smarmy and disingenuous. Throughout D&D's history--even back in the day--there was neutral Orcs and Good-aligned Ogres. Then, of course, there arrived everyone's favourite goody-goody Drow Elf Ranger, Drizzt Do'Urden. While such things existed--and many people embraced such racial exceptions for their campaigns, no one was arguing that there "Shouldn't be Inherently Evil Races in a campaign."

No reasonable person is attacking a mature, reasonable DM or player that desires some variety or nuance in racial exceptions in a game campaign. The argument is targeted square-away at the eye-rolling, smug, pussy-cuck crybabies that shriek about how racist, phobic, Colonial, Supremacist, and toxic gamers are that want traditional races and frameworks in the campaign to remain an essential part of the campaign and game foundation.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Dude, tell it to GeekyBugle. He's the guy knee-jerking all over the place.

Evil races aren't necessary.  There are plenty of evil individuals, dangerous races, and misguided folks that need to be opposed to provide opposition in your game world.  On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with having them in your game, and for certain game experiences they are essential.

I've always struggled with the idea that an inherently selfish, mean, and dishonest race could form large social groups.  I guess it's more about practicality than anything.  For example, the Valesians in Spacemaster Privateers are velociraptors.  They see themselves as perfectly rational.  There are predators and there is prey.  The contact and uplift teams suffered high casualties trying to bring them into interstellar society.  They didn't have any large social bodies on their worlds.