Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2023, 01:14:56 PM
What are your thoughts on the program by Macris?

I certainly think that he puts the nails down in all the handwringing Woke crybabies that REEE about "No, races shouldn't be EVIL!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmEFXSjEpcY

I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

Yeah, but "evil races" here means "inherently evil", like in the case of demons, not "potentially evil and psychotic (likely in the worst of circumstances), but also potentially good or indifferent", as is the case with humans. And not all games need to include inherently evil races for there to be something to do. Just potentially evil or at least antagonistic will do.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Nazi isn't a race but an ideology.

Every nazi was part of the human race.

So no, woke games aren't fine with having evil races, except when they are made by some "minority" and cast ALL people of European descent as evil, a la Coyote & Crow, and every other Afro-Futurist game/setting.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Nazi isn't a race but an ideology.

Every nazi was part of the human race.

So no, woke games aren't fine with having evil races, except when they are made by some "minority" and cast ALL people of European descent as evil, a la Coyote & Crow, and every other Afro-Futurist game/setting.

Woke isn't a race but an ideology.

Every woke was part of the human race.

Therefore those woke monsters hiding under your bed and grabbing your tootsies at night are actually human and therefore irredeemable evil because you have said so.

(Bender voice) Hey, baby. Wanna kill all humans?(/Bender voice)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM
Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Nazi isn't a race but an ideology.

Every nazi was part of the human race.

So no, woke games aren't fine with having evil races, except when they are made by some "minority" and cast ALL people of European descent as evil, a la Coyote & Crow, and every other Afro-Futurist game/setting.

I think we're miscommunicating. Exploderwizard suggested a different definition of "evil race". Let's call these two things:

1) Possibly Evil Races - This includes humans. Humans can be nazis, but they can also be paladins. Plenty of other fantasy races fall into this category - dwarves, elves, etc.

2) Innately Evil Races - These are races that cannot be anything but evil from birth. So it is morally OK to kill innately-evil babies.

Exploderwizard tried to say that "evil races" meant #1, so campaigns did need "evil races". However, I clarified that wasn't what Macris was talking about in his video.

I do think one can have a fun fantasy campaign with humans as the only race - or with various non-human races, but none of them innately evil. One can also have a fun fantasy campaign with innately-evil race(s).

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 25, 2023, 11:31:46 AM

Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2023, 01:14:56 PM
Greetings!

Well, well! The excellent Alexander Macris provides thoughtful, powerful, and insightful commentary and analysis on "Why RPG"s Should Have Evil Races!"

The video program is relatively brief, while simply being excellent in every regard. Macris also provides numerous quips of humour throughout the program.

What are your thoughts on the program by Macris?

I certainly think that he puts the nails down in all the handwringing Woke crybabies that REEE about "No, races shouldn't be EVIL!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Great video Shark. Macris of course gets it right. The woke crybabies don't see it that way because pick a reason: they can't tell the difference between a game and reality or they hate humanity.

Hey there, Rytrasmi! Yes, I agree. Macris brings up the author of some book about Neanderthals being incompatible with our own species of human--and while certainly interbreeding occured--it was a fanatical, desperate struggle for survival against a species of humanoid that was larger, faster, and stronger than ourselves. He then offers that it is precisely this desperate, genocidal struggle amongst different competing species of humans that is the worldwide basis for Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, and so on that threatened our own survival constantly. This pervasive struggle for survival is thus seen in virtually every culture, worldwide. That is fascinating, and I must admit that yes, I have heard the analysis of others scientists and authors that dare to stand against a more normative position that our relationships with competing prehistoric species was not all sugar and rainbows, but rather, an epic struggle for survival.

It reminds me of the older mainstream "Consensus" that Chimps are sweet and nice--when after a landmark study by Jane Goodall--yes, THE JANE GOODALL--where she recorded tribes of Chimps in Africa attacking other tribes of Chimps--why? So that the larger, stronger Chimp tribe could seize and rape the foreign Chimp females, and also gain the bannana resources that existed in the foreign Chimp tribe's land. The larger, stronger Chimp tribe invaded their weaker neighbors, where all the foreign males of every age were killed. The females were raped and enslaved into the dominant tribe--and the dominant tribe also gained all those extra Bannana plants.

Mainstream hippy scientists and anthropologists squirmed and REEE'd--but the evidence was irrefutable. For my Anthropology class I researched this, and thus demonstrated that war, rape, and conquest was a natural part of the human condition--with roots seen even within our Chimp cousins.

CHIMPS kill, rape, and conquer their neighbors for the same reasons that Humans do--because we want mre land, more women, and more Bannanas. And, well, we don't like many of our neighbors, so they get enslaved, or killed and eaten.

You see this dynamic throughout Human history, everywhere. It is only within the last century that our eager lust for conquest and genocide has been *slightly* tempered and reduced. Smug academics like to sniff about how "Enlightened" we are--Democracies don't go to war, blah, blah, blah. However, despite their squeeling and smug pontificating--it is human nature to love war and conquest. Our current headlines are also vivd examples of human conflict around the world--from Afica, the Middle East, the Caucusus, and Ukraine, just to point out the more prominent conflicts.

So, back to the main thrust--I am not surprised early human species slaughtered and conquered each other at all--and with a pervasive zeal.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2023, 08:26:13 PM
Hey there, Rytrasmi! Yes, I agree. Macris brings up the author of some book about Neanderthals being incompatible with our own species of human--and while certainly interbreeding occured--it was a fanatical, desperate struggle for survival against a species of humanoid that was larger, faster, and stronger than ourselves.

...

Quote from: SHARK on September 25, 2023, 08:26:13 PM
So, back to the main thrust--I am not surprised early human species slaughtered and conquered each other at all--and with a pervasive zeal.

As far as I can tell, all of this just supports my contention that one can have a fun RPG full of conflict with only humans, and there is no need for orcs or other innately-evil races.

I think Macris is slightly off target here (though the core thrust of his argument is sound).

RPG campaigns need antagonists.

If everyone you cross paths with is just 'misunderstood' or 'not really evil'... what's the point of fighting? Now, granted, if you wanted to run some kind of strange social-fu game, I guess this would work. Kinda. I suppose it's an interesting idea.

But that's not what we're after. So we need antagonists. People we can fight and not have to worry about 'but what about their point of view?'. Because they're the bad guys. Doesn't matter if they're undead, monstrous races, aliens, or whatever.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 25, 2023, 09:38:44 PM
I think Macris is slightly off target here (though the core thrust of his argument is sound).

RPG campaigns need antagonists.

If everyone you cross paths with is just 'misunderstood' or 'not really evil'... what's the point of fighting? Now, granted, if you wanted to run some kind of strange social-fu game, I guess this would work. Kinda. I suppose it's an interesting idea.

But that's not what we're after. So we need antagonists. People we can fight and not have to worry about 'but what about their point of view?'. Because they're the bad guys. Doesn't matter if they're undead, monstrous races, aliens, or whatever.

Yeah, that's pretty much what he is arguing.  But, as you know, whenever someone makes a declarative statement, the usual suspects suddenly become smooth-brained and can't see anything but "Absolutes bad!"

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 09:08:14 PMAs far as I can tell, all of this just supports my contention that one can have a fun RPG full of conflict with only humans, and there is no need for orcs or other innately-evil races.

I wouldn't say that inherently evil races are needed for a fun RPG, but adding them creates more variety. There are stories you can only tell if their is the threat from an inherently evil enemy. It's the classic Dalek trope where normal enemies need to put aside their differences to face an existential threat. So adding an inherently evil enemy type, even if that threat is far from the main focus of the campaign world, adds potential stories that the game world wouldn't have otherwise.

This is one of the big differences between worlds created for books or TV and worlds created for RPGs. Worlds created for RPGs need a wider variety of threats than normal entertainment worlds because the time spent inside an RPG world is orders of magnitude longer than time spent in most entertainment IPs.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Nazi isn't a race but an ideology.

Every nazi was part of the human race.

So no, woke games aren't fine with having evil races, except when they are made by some "minority" and cast ALL people of European descent as evil, a la Coyote & Crow, and every other Afro-Futurist game/setting.

Gotta love a guy who's always accusing people of launching StRaWmEn and loses his shit anytime he thinks someone even remotely misrepresented him somehow go out of his way to ignore context and twist something someone said.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 09:43:25 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 25, 2023, 09:38:44 PM
I think Macris is slightly off target here (though the core thrust of his argument is sound).

RPG campaigns need antagonists.

If everyone you cross paths with is just 'misunderstood' or 'not really evil'... what's the point of fighting? Now, granted, if you wanted to run some kind of strange social-fu game, I guess this would work. Kinda. I suppose it's an interesting idea.

But that's not what we're after. So we need antagonists. People we can fight and not have to worry about 'but what about their point of view?'. Because they're the bad guys. Doesn't matter if they're undead, monstrous races, aliens, or whatever.

Yeah, that's pretty much what he is arguing.  But, as you know, whenever someone makes a declarative statement, the usual suspects suddenly become smooth-brained and can't see anything but "Absolutes bad!"

I wonder who these people are, since even jhkim said he's OK with innately evil races in his elfgames, and no one's actually said that absolutes are bad. The only harsh arguments going on have been against Geeky's sTrAwMeN. But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:13:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Nazi isn't a race but an ideology.

Every nazi was part of the human race.

So no, woke games aren't fine with having evil races, except when they are made by some "minority" and cast ALL people of European descent as evil, a la Coyote & Crow, and every other Afro-Futurist game/setting.

Gotta love a guy who's always accusing people of launching StRaWmEn and loses his shit anytime he thinks someone even remotely misrepresented him somehow go out of his way to ignore context and twist something someone said.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 09:43:25 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 25, 2023, 09:38:44 PM
I think Macris is slightly off target here (though the core thrust of his argument is sound).

RPG campaigns need antagonists.

If everyone you cross paths with is just 'misunderstood' or 'not really evil'... what's the point of fighting? Now, granted, if you wanted to run some kind of strange social-fu game, I guess this would work. Kinda. I suppose it's an interesting idea.

But that's not what we're after. So we need antagonists. People we can fight and not have to worry about 'but what about their point of view?'. Because they're the bad guys. Doesn't matter if they're undead, monstrous races, aliens, or whatever.

Yeah, that's pretty much what he is arguing.  But, as you know, whenever someone makes a declarative statement, the usual suspects suddenly become smooth-brained and can't see anything but "Absolutes bad!"

I wonder who these people are, since even jhkim said he's OK with innately evil races in his elfgames, and no one's actually said that absolutes are bad. The only harsh arguments going on have been against Geeky's sTrAwMeN. But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

Who said this?

QuoteAnd not all games need to include inherently evil races for there to be something to do. Just potentially evil or at least antagonistic will do.

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:13:06 PM
But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

In order to lie to or about you, I'd have to care about you.  Which I don't.  I'm not emotionally involved in some rando on an OSR board that... doesn't even like OSR.  At least I'm a fan of OSR and play it regularly.  I mean, if we're going for levels of pathetic here, you've got me beaten by a mile.  I'm fine just pointing and laughing...

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 08:25:04 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM
Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Nazi isn't a race but an ideology.

Every nazi was part of the human race.

So no, woke games aren't fine with having evil races, except when they are made by some "minority" and cast ALL people of European descent as evil, a la Coyote & Crow, and every other Afro-Futurist game/setting.

I think we're miscommunicating. Exploderwizard suggested a different definition of "evil race". Let's call these two things:

1) Possibly Evil Races - This includes humans. Humans can be nazis, but they can also be paladins. Plenty of other fantasy races fall into this category - dwarves, elves, etc.

2) Innately Evil Races - These are races that cannot be anything but evil from birth. So it is morally OK to kill innately-evil babies.

Exploderwizard tried to say that "evil races" meant #1, so campaigns did need "evil races". However, I clarified that wasn't what Macris was talking about in his video.

I do think one can have a fun fantasy campaign with humans as the only race - or with various non-human races, but none of them innately evil. One can also have a fun fantasy campaign with innately-evil race(s).

One can have fun a million different ways, so?

Let me postulate some hypoteticals:

Campaign one Orcs are inherently Evil so it's fine to exterminate them.

Campaign two has only humans, under what conditions is it okay to exterminate one group of humans?

Campaign three has races other than human but NONE are inherently evil, under what conditions is it okay to exterminate one of them?

Asuming we're talking about intelligent races why isn't diplomacy the ONLY acceptable solution if no one is inherently evil?

I might be the exception around here but I've played Evil campaigns, didn't enjoyed it as much as a regular campaign, I've also played "Muh shades of grey morality!" campaigns, same as before it's not the same play style.

So, in a campaign where you want maximum stakes extermination must be on the table, and (unlike the enlightened centrists) I don't think that the Arachnids wanting to genocide all humans can EVER be morally justified which means the Humans (not being the agresors) are justified in fighthing back even if that means exterminating EVERY single arachnid from the universe BECAUSE that's what they want to do to us.

Enter the "muh complexity!" smoothbrain enlightened centrists.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 10:36:05 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 10:13:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 04:45:34 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 25, 2023, 04:11:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

In the video, Macris is talking about innately evil races -- such that it's morally OK to kill a baby of that race.

If you want to define that humans are an "evil race", then sure, games need evil races - but then, all games have evil races. Even woke games are fine to have nazis as villains.

Nazi isn't a race but an ideology.

Every nazi was part of the human race.

So no, woke games aren't fine with having evil races, except when they are made by some "minority" and cast ALL people of European descent as evil, a la Coyote & Crow, and every other Afro-Futurist game/setting.

Gotta love a guy who's always accusing people of launching StRaWmEn and loses his shit anytime he thinks someone even remotely misrepresented him somehow go out of his way to ignore context and twist something someone said.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 09:43:25 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 25, 2023, 09:38:44 PM
I think Macris is slightly off target here (though the core thrust of his argument is sound).

RPG campaigns need antagonists.

If everyone you cross paths with is just 'misunderstood' or 'not really evil'... what's the point of fighting? Now, granted, if you wanted to run some kind of strange social-fu game, I guess this would work. Kinda. I suppose it's an interesting idea.

But that's not what we're after. So we need antagonists. People we can fight and not have to worry about 'but what about their point of view?'. Because they're the bad guys. Doesn't matter if they're undead, monstrous races, aliens, or whatever.

Yeah, that's pretty much what he is arguing.  But, as you know, whenever someone makes a declarative statement, the usual suspects suddenly become smooth-brained and can't see anything but "Absolutes bad!"

I wonder who these people are, since even jhkim said he's OK with innately evil races in his elfgames, and no one's actually said that absolutes are bad. The only harsh arguments going on have been against Geeky's sTrAwMeN. But I suppose shit don't need to actually happen for you to declare it did, since you're fine with lying.

Who said this?

QuoteAnd not all games need to include inherently evil races for there to be something to do. Just potentially evil or at least antagonistic will do.

Someone with nuance and reading comprehension who knew what they were talking about and never mentioned that absolutes were necessarily bad, nor that inherently evil races shouldn't exist. Only that they weren't necessary for all games.