RPG Campaigns Should Have Evil Races!

jeff37923 · September 24, 2023, 08:32:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Starship Troopers, Lifeforce, Alien the 8th passenger, the Daleks, whatever Sil from Species is, say hi.

Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, anything with AI as characters, etc

If you want your aliens to be simplistic then good-evil is a nice axis. If you want your aliens to be more nuanced and complex so that your game has more depth, then good-evil is a shitty axis

And again, Starship Troopers the movie was simplistic while Starship Troopers the book was complex. Also, if you think that Doctor Who is deep, then you are fucked in the head.

jhkim · September 24, 2023, 09:19:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 08:11:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 07:57:29 PM
Serpent men don't appear in any of Howard's Conan stories. You can argue that they're technically in the universe because of Kull stories, which is possible -- but the point is -- one doesn't need serpent-men (or any other non-human race) in a Conan game. At least in R.E. Howard, Conan overwhelmingly fought other humans. It's common in many Sword & Sorcery stories that there aren't a bunch of humanoid races like elves and dwarves and orcs, just humans.

The Iron Shadows in the Moon IS REH Conan, so you're back to square one.

I'm explaining to you the saying evil exists ISN'T atheistic.

You THINK you don't need inherently evil races, probably because you're very close to woke if you're not one.

You can rationalize it as you like but it's because you feel it's raicismist.

To be clear - I have inherently evil races in many of my campaigns. I'm about to do a test run of my Middle Earth game this week, which has evil races (orcs and trolls). My previous two D&D campaigns also had evil races. One was a post-fantasy-apocalypse game with standard D&D evil races (goblins, drow, etc.). In my Temple of the Elements campaign, it was about establishing the rule of good against the evil races - which were humans, elves, and dwarves. I regularly run Call of Cthulhu, which has plenty of horrific races about.

What I don't do is say that every game *has* to have evil races or it's badwrongfun that needs to be moralized at.

Fheredin · September 24, 2023, 09:46:49 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 08:32:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Starship Troopers, Lifeforce, Alien the 8th passenger, the Daleks, whatever Sil from Species is, say hi.

Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, anything with AI as characters, etc

If you want your aliens to be simplistic then good-evil is a nice axis. If you want your aliens to be more nuanced and complex so that your game has more depth, then good-evil is a shitty axis

And again, Starship Troopers the movie was simplistic while Starship Troopers the book was complex. Also, if you think that Doctor Who is deep, then you are fucked in the head.

I basically agree. Fantasy likes making good and evil distinctions feel more permanent than they really have any business being; a sentient creature can make their own decisions and that means not being evil when the majority of your kin are. Sci-Fi does tend to go the other way a bit too far, though, with most races being cosmetic choices of what funny alien forehead the makeup department will apply today rather than a cultural critique.

I think the core here is that if you want a black and white moral universe, most enemies should really be below sentience rather than belonging to an evil race.

VisionStorm · September 24, 2023, 10:16:14 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 08:11:36 PM
You THINK you don't need inherently evil races, probably because you're very close to woke if you're not one.

You literally don't need inherently evil races, full stop. Even for a classic good vs evil world. Star Wars is largely about fighting an evil Empire made up of non-inherently evil humans who choose to be evil with the same end result. Most stories about good vs evil are about good humans vs evil humans. And most bad creatures in sci-fi, like Xenomorphs in Aliens, are just inherently antagonistic rather than truly evil.

jeff37923 · September 24, 2023, 10:19:19 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on September 24, 2023, 09:46:49 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 08:32:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Starship Troopers, Lifeforce, Alien the 8th passenger, the Daleks, whatever Sil from Species is, say hi.

Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, anything with AI as characters, etc

If you want your aliens to be simplistic then good-evil is a nice axis. If you want your aliens to be more nuanced and complex so that your game has more depth, then good-evil is a shitty axis

And again, Starship Troopers the movie was simplistic while Starship Troopers the book was complex. Also, if you think that Doctor Who is deep, then you are fucked in the head.

I basically agree. Fantasy likes making good and evil distinctions feel more permanent than they really have any business being; a sentient creature can make their own decisions and that means not being evil when the majority of your kin are. Sci-Fi does tend to go the other way a bit too far, though, with most races being cosmetic choices of what funny alien forehead the makeup department will apply today rather than a cultural critique.

I think the core here is that if you want a black and white moral universe, most enemies should really be below sentience rather than belonging to an evil race.

Hmmm, I wonder. Fantasy has gods, angel, demons, devils, and other divine or infernal beings. Having some sentient races act as moral absolutes is fine. Although that sentience allows them to choose as well, to act against the stereotype. Again, it would depend on how much depth and nuance you want your games to be. You can do a lot with that nuance.

Then again, it's a game. Sometimes you just want to kill orcs or shoot stormtroopers because they are bad guys. Sometimes you want that evil leader out to destroy the human race on Earth is because his own world is doomed and he needs to find a home for his people (Abelt Desslar of Gamalas in Space Battleship Yamato).

Ultimately it's up to you. Best to keep your options open.

jeff37923 · September 24, 2023, 10:23:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 08:11:36 PM
You THINK you don't need inherently evil races, probably because you're very close to woke if you're not one.

WOW........

The woke are the monster under your bed, aren't they?

VisionStorm · September 24, 2023, 11:17:38 PM

Geeky is the poster child for the first rule of the fanatic...

SHARK · September 25, 2023, 01:45:43 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2023, 01:14:56 PM
What are your thoughts on the program by Macris?

I certainly think that he puts the nails down in all the handwringing Woke crybabies that REEE about "No, races shouldn't be EVIL!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmEFXSjEpcY

I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Further, his justification for this is stretching. He talks a bunch about Neanderthals, even suggesting that evil fantasy races all represent Neanderthals - and that competing biology represents some sort of moral mandate. I disagree. Modern humans do not have some sort of moral mandate to behave like our prehistoric ancestors. That's not a woke ideal - that's a message of Judaism, Christianity, and many other established religions, among others.

If he or anyone wants to make an RPG that is an atheist morality tale where orcs represent Neanderthals and all orcs should be wiped out, that's fine. It's just a game. But it's not how all fantasy games should be. Fantasy campaigns should be different from each other, and represent different themes.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Of course *you* disagree, Jhkim. I *knew* it would be a cold day in Hell before you agreed with Macris.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

GeekyBugle · September 25, 2023, 02:18:56 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 10:19:19 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on September 24, 2023, 09:46:49 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 08:32:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Starship Troopers, Lifeforce, Alien the 8th passenger, the Daleks, whatever Sil from Species is, say hi.

Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, anything with AI as characters, etc

If you want your aliens to be simplistic then good-evil is a nice axis. If you want your aliens to be more nuanced and complex so that your game has more depth, then good-evil is a shitty axis

And again, Starship Troopers the movie was simplistic while Starship Troopers the book was complex. Also, if you think that Doctor Who is deep, then you are fucked in the head.

I basically agree. Fantasy likes making good and evil distinctions feel more permanent than they really have any business being; a sentient creature can make their own decisions and that means not being evil when the majority of your kin are. Sci-Fi does tend to go the other way a bit too far, though, with most races being cosmetic choices of what funny alien forehead the makeup department will apply today rather than a cultural critique.

I think the core here is that if you want a black and white moral universe, most enemies should really be below sentience rather than belonging to an evil race.

Hmmm, I wonder. Fantasy has gods, angel, demons, devils, and other divine or infernal beings. Having some sentient races act as moral absolutes is fine. Although that sentience allows them to choose as well, to act against the stereotype. Again, it would depend on how much depth and nuance you want your games to be. You can do a lot with that nuance.

Then again, it's a game. Sometimes you just want to kill orcs or shoot stormtroopers because they are bad guys. Sometimes you want that evil leader out to destroy the human race on Earth is because his own world is doomed and he needs to find a home for his people (Abelt Desslar of Gamalas in Space Battleship Yamato).

Ultimately it's up to you. Best to keep your options open.

So you think that wanting to genocide the whole human race (for whatever reason) doesn't make you inherently evil?

ALL of the genocidal maniacs we've had also thought they had a good reason and were the good guys.

GeekyBugle · September 25, 2023, 02:23:51 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 08:32:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Starship Troopers, Lifeforce, Alien the 8th passenger, the Daleks, whatever Sil from Species is, say hi.

Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, anything with AI as characters, etc

If you want your aliens to be simplistic then good-evil is a nice axis. If you want your aliens to be more nuanced and complex so that your game has more depth, then good-evil is a shitty axis

And again, Starship Troopers the movie was simplistic while Starship Troopers the book was complex. Also, if you think that Doctor Who is deep, then you are fucked in the head.

Nice goalpost moving.

And since you have NO arguments then you try and start a fight over something NOT directed at you...

Say hi to Vision Storm in the ignore list.

jeff37923 · September 25, 2023, 02:42:15 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 02:18:56 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 10:19:19 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on September 24, 2023, 09:46:49 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 08:32:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Starship Troopers, Lifeforce, Alien the 8th passenger, the Daleks, whatever Sil from Species is, say hi.

Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, anything with AI as characters, etc

If you want your aliens to be simplistic then good-evil is a nice axis. If you want your aliens to be more nuanced and complex so that your game has more depth, then good-evil is a shitty axis

And again, Starship Troopers the movie was simplistic while Starship Troopers the book was complex. Also, if you think that Doctor Who is deep, then you are fucked in the head.

I basically agree. Fantasy likes making good and evil distinctions feel more permanent than they really have any business being; a sentient creature can make their own decisions and that means not being evil when the majority of your kin are. Sci-Fi does tend to go the other way a bit too far, though, with most races being cosmetic choices of what funny alien forehead the makeup department will apply today rather than a cultural critique.

I think the core here is that if you want a black and white moral universe, most enemies should really be below sentience rather than belonging to an evil race.

Hmmm, I wonder. Fantasy has gods, angel, demons, devils, and other divine or infernal beings. Having some sentient races act as moral absolutes is fine. Although that sentience allows them to choose as well, to act against the stereotype. Again, it would depend on how much depth and nuance you want your games to be. You can do a lot with that nuance.

Then again, it's a game. Sometimes you just want to kill orcs or shoot stormtroopers because they are bad guys. Sometimes you want that evil leader out to destroy the human race on Earth is because his own world is doomed and he needs to find a home for his people (Abelt Desslar of Gamalas in Space Battleship Yamato).

Ultimately it's up to you. Best to keep your options open.

So you think that wanting to genocide the whole human race (for whatever reason) doesn't make you inherently evil?

ALL of the genocidal maniacs we've had also thought they had a good reason and were the good guys.

Evil to whom? Humans? Sure. The people of Gamalas? No, not really. Except that is nuanced characterization, which looks like it is beyond you.

Genocidal maniacs, huh? Are you talking about the Real World or are you talking about a fictional universe?

jeff37923 · September 25, 2023, 02:51:07 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 02:23:51 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 08:32:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Starship Troopers, Lifeforce, Alien the 8th passenger, the Daleks, whatever Sil from Species is, say hi.

Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, anything with AI as characters, etc

If you want your aliens to be simplistic then good-evil is a nice axis. If you want your aliens to be more nuanced and complex so that your game has more depth, then good-evil is a shitty axis

And again, Starship Troopers the movie was simplistic while Starship Troopers the book was complex. Also, if you think that Doctor Who is deep, then you are fucked in the head.

Nice goalpost moving.

And since you have NO arguments then you try and start a fight over something NOT directed at you...

Say hi to Vision Storm in the ignore list.

Since you cannot handle a rebuttal to your own poorly formed argument, you claim that I have none and place me on Ignore because of Goalpost Moving. The hint here was that I was making a list of science fiction shows which have nuanced and complex alien races in them whose actions can be both good and evil depending on the viewpoint and the motivation for the action while you made a list of science fiction shows which focus on monsters to defeat.

So the mighty GeekyBugle goes running off with his fingers in his ears yelling LaLaLaLaLaLaLa!! so that you cannot hear a counter argument.

Notice that I have NOT put you on Ignore. Coward.

VisionStorm · September 25, 2023, 08:29:55 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 25, 2023, 02:42:15 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2023, 02:18:56 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 10:19:19 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on September 24, 2023, 09:46:49 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 08:32:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:01:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Starship Troopers, Lifeforce, Alien the 8th passenger, the Daleks, whatever Sil from Species is, say hi.

Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, anything with AI as characters, etc

If you want your aliens to be simplistic then good-evil is a nice axis. If you want your aliens to be more nuanced and complex so that your game has more depth, then good-evil is a shitty axis

And again, Starship Troopers the movie was simplistic while Starship Troopers the book was complex. Also, if you think that Doctor Who is deep, then you are fucked in the head.

I basically agree. Fantasy likes making good and evil distinctions feel more permanent than they really have any business being; a sentient creature can make their own decisions and that means not being evil when the majority of your kin are. Sci-Fi does tend to go the other way a bit too far, though, with most races being cosmetic choices of what funny alien forehead the makeup department will apply today rather than a cultural critique.

I think the core here is that if you want a black and white moral universe, most enemies should really be below sentience rather than belonging to an evil race.

Hmmm, I wonder. Fantasy has gods, angel, demons, devils, and other divine or infernal beings. Having some sentient races act as moral absolutes is fine. Although that sentience allows them to choose as well, to act against the stereotype. Again, it would depend on how much depth and nuance you want your games to be. You can do a lot with that nuance.

Then again, it's a game. Sometimes you just want to kill orcs or shoot stormtroopers because they are bad guys. Sometimes you want that evil leader out to destroy the human race on Earth is because his own world is doomed and he needs to find a home for his people (Abelt Desslar of Gamalas in Space Battleship Yamato).

Ultimately it's up to you. Best to keep your options open.

So you think that wanting to genocide the whole human race (for whatever reason) doesn't make you inherently evil?

ALL of the genocidal maniacs we've had also thought they had a good reason and were the good guys.

Evil to whom? Humans? Sure. The people of Gamalas? No, not really. Except that is nuanced characterization, which looks like it is beyond you.

Genocidal maniacs, huh? Are you talking about the Real World or are you talking about a fictional universe?

Welcome to the new and improved Geeky, now even more oblivious. Who literally initiates an argument with you by nitpicking your first post, misses your point and uncharitably interprets what you say, then accuses you of starting a fight, engaging in some random fallacy that doesn't really apply and of not having an argument, when all he has are empty declarations, which aren't really arguments, and bad examples, which don't really prove shit. Then proceeds to block you while declaring victory. Totally not like a SJW.

Exploderwizard · September 25, 2023, 10:24:15 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2023, 01:14:56 PM
What are your thoughts on the program by Macris?

I certainly think that he puts the nails down in all the handwringing Woke crybabies that REEE about "No, races shouldn't be EVIL!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmEFXSjEpcY

I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

Any game that includes humans includes evil races. No created fantasy race can be as barbaric, cruel, and evil as humans can be to each other. Are the aggressive wretched orcs in most fantasy settings more evil than humans have historically been to each other? I think not. Humans cheat, extort, oppress, enslave, torture , and murder their own kind far more than many so called evil races do within their own species.

rytrasmi · September 25, 2023, 11:31:46 AM

Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2023, 01:14:56 PM
Greetings!

Well, well! The excellent Alexander Macris provides thoughtful, powerful, and insightful commentary and analysis on "Why RPG"s Should Have Evil Races!"

The video program is relatively brief, while simply being excellent in every regard. Macris also provides numerous quips of humour throughout the program.

What are your thoughts on the program by Macris?

I certainly think that he puts the nails down in all the handwringing Woke crybabies that REEE about "No, races shouldn't be EVIL!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Great video Shark. Macris of course gets it right. The woke crybabies don't see it that way because pick a reason: they can't tell the difference between a game and reality or they hate humanity.