Greetings!

Well, well! The excellent Alexander Macris provides thoughtful, powerful, and insightful commentary and analysis on "Why RPG"s Should Have Evil Races!"

The video program is relatively brief, while simply being excellent in every regard. Macris also provides numerous quips of humour throughout the program.

What are your thoughts on the program by Macris?

I certainly think that he puts the nails down in all the handwringing Woke crybabies that REEE about "No, races shouldn't be EVIL!"

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Will watch it later as I generally like Macris' takes on things, but even without watching, I wholeheartedly agree.  That's part of the fun of gaming.  Slaughtering irredeemably evil creatures in the name of good.  Or simply to take their ill-gotten gains.  Or both.  There are enough grey areas in real life.  I want my fantasy to be an epic showdown between good and evil, not some discourse on whether "broken orcish society" is to blame for their wayward souls.  Things like good stormtroopers and Drizz'zt Du'orden ruined entire villain groups.

Absolutely! Humans at the very least.

Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2023, 01:14:56 PM
Greetings!

Well, well! The excellent Alexander Macris provides thoughtful, powerful, and insightful commentary and analysis on "Why RPG"s Should Have Evil Races!"

Alex is about 45 years late to the party.  Is he new to RPGs?

It's funny, but I don't use innately evil races in my game.  I do however use innately hostile and aggressive races and monsters.  I have individually evil NPCs that take the form of humans sometimes and fantastic creatures other times but aren't necessarily hostile or aggressive.  I believe this creates a more complex and nuanced game.  I don't do this for woke point, I just think it's a fun way to run a setting.   

Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2023, 01:14:56 PM
What are your thoughts on the program by Macris?

I certainly think that he puts the nails down in all the handwringing Woke crybabies that REEE about "No, races shouldn't be EVIL!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmEFXSjEpcY

I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.


Further, his justification for this is stretching. He talks a bunch about Neanderthals, even suggesting that evil fantasy races all represent Neanderthals - and that competing biology represents some sort of moral mandate. I disagree. Modern humans do not have some sort of moral mandate to behave like our prehistoric ancestors. That's not a woke ideal - that's a message of Judaism, Christianity, and many other established religions, among others.

If he or anyone wants to make an RPG that is an atheist morality tale where orcs represent Neanderthals and all orcs should be wiped out, that's fine. It's just a game. But it's not how all fantasy games should be. Fantasy campaigns should be different from each other, and represent different themes.

This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Most fantasy settings have demons and undead so there's always going to be evil monsters to slaughter. Good old "Chaotic Evil" never fail to provide perfect antagonists.

Meh, I don't particularly care either way as long as it's interesting and it fits the setting. I tend to prefer more nuanced races that aren't innately evil per se, but more like a nuisance or brutal savages that are more likely to be antagonistic than cooperative. But innately evil works as well for a fantasy world. I'm not gonna cry that orcs are depicted as inherently evil corrupted mutations of humanity (or elves) in some worlds and have no problem playing them like that.

On the topic of Humans vs Neanderthals, I'm not sure how strong the evidence is that they tried to wipe out each other through violence. A lot of the stuff I've read or heard about the topic before seems inconclusive, and human neanderthal inter breeding tends to come up more often. But IDK, maybe it was a combination of both. And I'm more inclined to believe that it was, which is also how I tend to present those types of races, rather being pure evil, unless we're talking about magical races or creatures like demons.

Maybe relevant: a discussion of why cults make good antagonists, by providing PCs something clearly Evil to kill while being small enough for a band of 3-6 people to reasonably take on. https://udan-adan.blogspot.com/2017/10/cults-cultists-and-d.html

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 24, 2023, 06:11:03 PM
This works well for fantasy.

It doesn't work well for science fiction.

Starship Troopers, Lifeforce, Alien the 8th passenger, the Daleks, whatever Sil from Species is, say hi.

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 24, 2023, 01:14:56 PM
What are your thoughts on the program by Macris?

I certainly think that he puts the nails down in all the handwringing Woke crybabies that REEE about "No, races shouldn't be EVIL!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmEFXSjEpcY

I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.


Further, his justification for this is stretching. He talks a bunch about Neanderthals, even suggesting that evil fantasy races all represent Neanderthals - and that competing biology represents some sort of moral mandate. I disagree. Modern humans do not have some sort of moral mandate to behave like our prehistoric ancestors. That's not a woke ideal - that's a message of Judaism, Christianity, and many other established religions, among others.

If he or anyone wants to make an RPG that is an atheist morality tale where orcs represent Neanderthals and all orcs should be wiped out, that's fine. It's just a game. But it's not how all fantasy games should be. Fantasy campaigns should be different from each other, and represent different themes.

"Conan doesn't have evil races"? The serpent men?

How is it Atheist to fight demons and demon created things?

7th Sea is woke bullshit, not sure about Ars Magica but if it's true it doesn't have inherently evil "races" it probably is too.

Denying that evil exists is not only woke but Atheistic.

It's an interesting little talk. I've heard elsewhere the theory that goblins, orcs, even fairies are ancestral memories of pre-human hominids. Some people will tell you that's why fairies fear iron, that metallurgy was what allowed primitive humans to triumph over their hominid rivals. Is it true? No idea. I think it's equally likely that iron age people saw old bronze age ruins in the countryside and invented people to fill them.

Personally, I think it's a bit of a stretch to state categorically that fantasy races represent neanderthals, etc. I doubt that's what Tolkien had in mind.

The "coexistence is impossible" justification for "evil" races reminds me a bit of Goblin Slayer, which seems to be taking that approach. It works, but as others have pointed out, it starts to break down the more advanced the races involved become. It also kind of removes the good and evil from the question. The xenomorph isn't strictly speaking evil; it's just an animal following it's biological imperatives. If you make orcs the same, then killing them might be necessary, but it's not morally any different from killing giant rats or whatever. 

Personally, I don't make much use of "evil because evil" races. I prefer "normal" races that have been somehow corrupted. That's more engaging to me, and it neatly sidesteps awkward questions like "how can an entirely evil race build a functional society or raise children?" If I need something to be just pure evil from the moment of it's creation, I'm more likely to use demons or some other metaphysical being.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:07:14 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

"Conan doesn't have evil races"? The serpent men?

Serpent men don't appear in any of Howard's Conan stories. You can argue that they're technically in the universe because of Kull stories, which is possible -- but the point is -- one doesn't need serpent-men (or any other non-human race) in a Conan game. At least in R.E. Howard, Conan overwhelmingly fought other humans. It's common in many Sword & Sorcery stories that there aren't a bunch of humanoid races like elves and dwarves and orcs, just humans.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:07:14 PM
Denying that evil exists is not only woke but Atheistic.

No one is denying that evil exists. One doesn't need innately evil races for there to be evil. Human beings can and do commit evil acts.

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 07:57:29 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:07:14 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 24, 2023, 05:27:22 PM
I think phrasing it as a mandate ("campaigns should have evil races") is a dumb overreach, which goes against a lots of things other than wokeness. Conan doesn't have evil races. Neither does 7th Sea, Ars Magica, and many other settings. There are lots of great fantasy stories and lots of great fantasy RPGs that don't have innately evil races.

"Conan doesn't have evil races"? The serpent men?

Serpent men don't appear in any of Howard's Conan stories. You can argue that they're technically in the universe because of Kull stories, which is possible -- but the point is -- one doesn't need serpent-men (or any other non-human race) in a Conan game. At least in R.E. Howard, Conan overwhelmingly fought other humans. It's common in many Sword & Sorcery stories that there aren't a bunch of humanoid races like elves and dwarves and orcs, just humans.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2023, 07:07:14 PM
Denying that evil exists is not only woke but Atheistic.

No one is denying that evil exists. One doesn't need innately evil races for there to be evil. Human beings can and do commit evil acts.

The Iron Shadows in the Moon IS REH Conan, so you're back to square one.

I'm explaining to you the saying evil exists ISN'T atheistic.

You THINK you don't need inherently evil races, probably because you're very close to woke if you're not one.

You can rationalize it as you like but it's because you feel it's raicismist.