So, I'm sure you're all pretty tired of my threads where I just make inquiries to the amassed knowledge of the various erudite and edumacated posters on this forum, but here goes another. I have several copies of the James Bond 007 RPG from 1983 (I think?), along with the For Your Information Book, the Q Manual, Thrilling Cities (or was it called Thrilling Locations?), and have used it off and on over the years for brief campaigns. Usually I limit the number of PCs to 1 to 3 to keep it in line with the genre (James Bond, Napoléon Solo, Illya Kuryakin, April Dancer, Sam Durell, Matt Helm, John Steed, Emma Peel, Modesty Blaise, etc.), although the game does assume every PC is a fancy James Bond connoisseur type. I came across a beat-up old boxed set of Top Secret, the rules of which I haven't had a chance to read through yet, but I know there was also a later game called Top Secret/S.I. and was wondering what the differences are between the two Top Secret games, if there are any. I have never played either one. What does "S.I." stand for? (Surely not Sports Illustrated.) Are there any cool features from Top Secret you would import into James Bond 007? If you have the original Top Secret, is there any reason to seek out Top Secret/S.I.? Is it like D&D vs. AD&D?

Also, any recommendations for cool Cold War spy novels? (I have complete sets of the Ian Fleming books and the Edward S. Aarons books.)

Quote from: Dumarest;961952...what the differences are between the two Top Secret games, if there are any. I have never played either one. What does "S.I." stand for? (Surely not Sports Illustrated.) Are there any cool features from Top Secret you would import into James Bond 007? If you have the original Top Secret, is there any reason to seek out Top Secret/S.I.? Is it like D&D vs. AD&D?

Two completely different games. My memory of the original TS is hazy, but I still own the TSSI stuff. I'm going to sell it one of these days, so I don't reccomend acquiring either.

TS was early TSR design: three classes (investigator, confiscator, and assassin) with levels with differing XP progressions. The attributes were percentile based; secondary atts caluclated from the primaries. Combat was a standard roll to hit and roll damage, but hand-to-hand was weird. The attacker and defender wrote down their moves and revealed them simultaneously. Something like a same-side block cancelled a same-side punch, but an other-side block did not cancel a SS punch.

TSSI (SI = special investigations) was ahead of it's time. It also had percentile atts, but added a skill system based on ranks. Ranged combat was the standard roll to hit and roll damage, but HTH was quite innovative: the tens digit indicated where you hit, and the one's digit determined damage. Your character's body was composed of 10 areas, each with a number of boxes equal to CON/10 (or something like that.) TSSI and James Bond (released the same year) were the first games to use hero points. TSSI had two types: fame points and fortune points, the latter which were hidden from the player.  

TSSI has several supplements of varying quality. Agent 13 was great, adding pulp roles and powers. FREE Lancers was odd, adding cybernetics and low-level super agents. High Stakes Gamble covered casinos and exotic locales. Yet none of the TSSI books were of the same quality as the JB stuff. I used to read the Q Manual for hours.

Unfortuntaley TSSI hasn't aged well, so steeped in the 80's. The players were supposed to work for an agency called ORION, and the enemies worked for a global conspiracy named WEB. It was rather bland, and you could ditch it with no problem. In spite of it's innovations, TSSI still feels clunky in places. I would not port anything from TSSI into JB, since the latter is probably the more robust game of the two.

So they're unrelated games with nearly the same name? How confusing.

Thanks for the information.

I've always been happy with James Bond 007 but wondered what there might be that was worthwhile in its competition.

That hand-to-hand combat method actually sounds like fun.

I dusted off my old copy of TS. I haven't read this game in decades, and I was surprised by the OSR goodness. I take back my earlier comment—this is definitely worth a look. The feel is more Bourne than Bond. Some elements:

Experience chart: This is really cool. You get XP for pulling off various jobs: arson is 100 XP, but a prison break-in is 400 XP. An assassination (messy, clean, or ultraclean) is worth 100, 300, or 500 XP respectively.

Contacts table: In a modern game, this would be interaction skills, the "I roll diplomacy" stuff. You choose one of the 9 methods (bribe, con, lure, scare, etc.) and compare your att value to the NPC's att value on the table. This yields up to 9 possible results, some of which require a secondary die roll.

Combat sequence: No rolling for initiative. The only other game I know of that does something like this is Rolemaster:  

• Step 1: Possession combat (fighting to see who gets the gun)
• Step 2: Hand to hand combat (simultaneous)
• Step 3: Projectile combat (further resolved by weapon speed and modifiers)
• Step 4: Movement

Combat: Roll d100 lower than your Offense + Weapon value to hit. Damage is 3 rolls: hit location, type of wound, and amount of damage (1-12 points, modified by caliber of weapon). Hit points range from 1-20.

HTH: I never understood this as a kid, but now it looks like it could be a blast. The attacker and defender go at the same time. Each secretly picks one attack and one defense (e.g. right hook, right block). Resolve each simultaneously, comparing attack to defense on the table to see how much damage is done. For example, right hook vs. left block is an "other side" result, which results in no damage. Right hook vs. right block is a "same side" result, which results in 5-10 damage. It's more complicated than that, but you get the idea.

Fame and fortune points: I knew these were in TSSI, but they are here in TS as well. There's only one way to use them: mitigate a killing strike so you have 1 HP left instead. Generally I don't like mechanics like this, since the person who has the most luck points will win the fight, rather than the toughest or best fighter.

Numerous Old School tables: Tables for everything: explosives, fencing goods, gases, intruders, etc. My favorite is the Execution table, where you can roll randomly to see which method the villain will use, ranging from "air injected into veins" to "scorpion sting".

Healing: I can't find it. Would be cool if the type of wound determines healing times and permanent loss. Maybe it is buried in here somewhere.

Quote from: Dumarest;962013So they're unrelated games with nearly the same name? How confusing.

Thats par for the course with alot of TSR's sideline games.

I think Boot Hill 1st and 2nd and maybee Gamma World 1st and 2nd were the exceptions.

But 3 and 4e GW are each different systems, as are Alternity, d20, and 4e D&D GW.

Buck Rogers is another that comes to mind. And technically Conan as there was a short lived AD&D Conan that existed only as modules. Metamorphosis Alpha was another as its Amazing Engine version is a different system. Same for the System26 MA.

Part of this is because of changes in designers and changes in TSR itself. And partially because the original designers were no longer with TSR.

I liked TSSI when I played it when back when. As I recall combat was quite deadly and the missions were pretty cool.

FREElancers was really cool.  Probably the best low-level supers game framework I think I've ever played in.  PCs had usually one power or so, and it was minor, but the end result was pretty cool for special ops stuff.  Lots of great backstory to work with.

I had FreeLancers and still have the novel. Its interesting but oddly haphazard in its presentation. The book especially I was not impressed with at all. Lots of neat ideas though and very low level supers vibe. Almost Shadowrun as if theyd gone with superheroes rather than supernatural.

I honestly had no fucking idea that they were two totally different games until now.

Quote from: RPGPundit;962722I honestly had no fucking idea that they were two totally different games until now.

Nor did I. I always assumed Top Secret was to Top Secret/S.I. as 1974 D&D was to AD&D.

I'd have to give the edge to TSSI. I checked out TS and it compares poorly to Niles' TSSI in terms of design but has lots of great ideas that Niles improves on.

Quote from: Aglondir on May 12, 2017, 04:45:13 PM

Unfortuntaley TSSI hasn't aged well, so steeped in the 80's. The players were supposed to work for an agency called ORION, and the enemies worked for a global conspiracy named WEB. It was rather bland, and you could ditch it with no problem.

I realize this is an old thread, but this "hasn't aged well" critique is now all the rage. Amazon Prime's new Citadel show is pretty much identical to Top Secret/SI's Orion Foundation (Citadel) vs. the Web (Manticore).

Funny how that works, right? Back in the 80s I definitely didn't want to play a game set in the 80s. And so never played TS.

Recently I was invited to play TS, and accepted without question. We pretty much concluded that the rules were a disappointment. Maybe we'll try TS:SI or JB 007. But what I'd really prefer is a real Cold War feel, like the BRP game Berlin '61. That's the kind of thing I like.

https://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/58801/berlin-61