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I'd like to hear people's best arguments for or against either or both of the above-named systems of generating initial character ability scores.

I know lots of people have hybrid or unusual systems to do this - and that's cool.  But I am really interested in why you think rolling for ability scores is better, or standard array or point buy is better.  Either from a personal perspective, or a game design perspective, or whatever.

Quote from: Mistwell;759528I'd like to hear people's best arguments for or against either or both of the above-named systems of generating initial character ability scores.

I know lots of people have hybrid or unusual systems to do this - and that's cool.  But I am really interested in why you think rolling for ability scores is better, or standard array is better.  Either from a personal perspective, or a game design perspective, or whatever.

Of the two, standard array is my preference.  I'm allergic to most random generation* due to near universal experiences with either actual cheating or systems being so modified to create high stats it seems pointless.

My actual preference is to just let people generate stats any way they like, up to and including picking the values they want that makes sense for the character.  I've had surprisingly good results with this in point based systems and have yet to have anyone even try "I have all 18s."

I would say the standard array is a good compromise to my preference since it's just picking from a limited pool of results.


*Traveller and WHFRP 1st are exceptions, I think randomness is too central a feature to ignore for both.  And making Traveller characters is an adventure, so it's fun in it's own right.

If you don't roll 3D6 down the line, the OSR Taliban will break down your door and chop off your head. And I'm supplying the machetes!

Random roll only works when stats aren't the core determination of a character's ability in the game. AKA, if I need an 18 to be a mechanically useful fighter at the table, then point buy / standard array is necessary.

Point Buy / Standard Array is absolutely necessary in 3e/4e and certainly in any munchkinesque AD&D game. There were plenty of whiny fucks who bitched in the early 80s if their character had any stats without a bonus. Until I see actual 5e game, not the playtest docs, I cannot say how important stats will be in 5e.

However, if stats are -3 to +3 like Labyrinth Lord or -1 to +1 like S&W, then its no big deal to roll the dice. The difference between a +1 STR fighter and a +0 STR fighter isn't a big deal, especially if that +0 STR fighter has some other stat bonus.

At the end of the day, I greatly prefer 3D6 down the line because I really enjoy being surprised by the random result and I love turning those results into a cool character.

Standard array is a good way to get a quick character, actually faster than 3d6 in order. Plus, the player has input on what character they play rather than being completely random.

3d6 seven times, assign as desired, drop the 7th roll. Standard array leads to the same types of characters -- every character with a prime stat of 16. Not very interesting stuff. On the whole these days, high numbers really don't mean much. In my 5E play group, I think we have one PC with a negative Mod on anything.

Random if you want to play a game, point-based if you want to play a role.

Quote from: Brad;759543Random if you want to play a game, point-based if you want to play a role.

The impartial elegance of this statement pleases me.

4d6-drop 1 and reroll "1's". I roll horribly so my DM made that method up just for me so I could actually get a playable character without taking an hour on just rolling dice. Standard array is too samey and puts you in build not character mode. It's good for organized play, conventions or the like though.

I prefer "point-buy" to standard array, unless there are a few different arrays that players can choose from (jack-of-all trades, specialist etc...). So as to add a bit more variety.

Randomly rolling goes hand-in-hand with certain RPGs though (as someone already mentioned: WFRP 1e and 2e).

I've personally known players that defended random rolling to the death but usually rolled as many times as they wanted until they got stats that they liked. That doesn't count: you might as well be using point-buys or arrays.

I've settled on giving players a choice for one of two options:

• random, no swaps or drops;
• pick one or more scores and make them whatever you want, but then you have to roll on a random table.

I don't like arrays or point-buy because they tend to make two kinds of characters:

 -  guys with bland, middle-of-the-road scores, either all the same or one sliightly higher;
 -  freaks with one over-the-top ability and one or more ridiculously low abilities.

It also encourages focusing on character building. I hate character building. I hate anything that focuses player attention on the system instead of the world where the character lives. And honestly, if you have a strong urge to play a very strong character or a crafty agile character and don't want to risk not rolling the scores you want, "pick your damn scores already" is the best possible solution; all other methods are just fussy, time-consuming, and not as likely to give you the character you want.

I prefer players to experience at least some element of chance, however, which is why I wrote a random table for those who pick their scores. It adds unusual events to the character's background, none of which reduce the character's effectiveness, but instead give players something to think about and possibly deal with. Some is good, some is technically bad, a lot is just open to interpretation during the game.

I've got a thread here listing off the various ways D&D has done scores so far.

I like them all really.

But my favorites are...

4d6, discard lowest, arrange as desired. Slightly better than average stats and you have more say in what your character will be. Works in AD&D where stats determine what classes are availible.

3d6 in order, choose class, and then shuffle points. the BX method Im most used to. Randomness with some control. Works best in BX since stats are no as hardcoaded into the classes. They just grant a XP bonus if you have a good prime stat. So you can have fairly average fighters, not too bright magic users and so on.

Standard array is usefull. It was the very first alternative stat method I worked out. Next's array of 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 shows that you do not need an 18 stat to be viable.

Point buy systems allow alot of flexibility. I think it was interesting that the playtest point buy system did not go over 16.

My son and I roll 3d6 down the line. My wife and daughter pick their numbers. It all works out to be the same when we play.

Quote from: talysman;759557I've settled on giving players a choice for one of two options:

• random, no swaps or drops;
• pick one or more scores and make them whatever you want, but then you have to roll on a random table.

I don't like arrays or point-buy because they tend to make two kinds of characters:

 -  guys with bland, middle-of-the-road scores, either all the same or one sliightly higher;
 -  freaks with one over-the-top ability and one or more ridiculously low abilities.

It also encourages focusing on character building. I hate character building. I hate anything that focuses player attention on the system instead of the world where the character lives. And honestly, if you have a strong urge to play a very strong character or a crafty agile character and don't want to risk not rolling the scores you want, "pick your damn scores already" is the best possible solution; all other methods are just fussy, time-consuming, and not as likely to give you the character you want.

I prefer players to experience at least some element of chance, however, which is why I wrote a random table for those who pick their scores. It adds unusual events to the character's background, none of which reduce the character's effectiveness, but instead give players something to think about and possibly deal with. Some is good, some is technically bad, a lot is just open to interpretation during the game.

I like 3d6 in order, with a single die reroll across the whole enchilada.

I would rather avoid point buys and arrays for the same reasons you give, and despite knowing that I will be the worst offender if presented with a point buy.

I think I like the idea of the "just pick the stats and submit to the table!"  Can you share some example entries you used for the table?

Quote from: Brad;759543Random if you want to play a game, point-based if you want to play a role.

Not really.

With random you can get some good ideas for off the cuff characters.

With point buy you can end up with cookie cutter min-maxed or baseline walking stat blocks.

In the wrong hands random generation can stifle creativity.
In the wrong hands point buy can stifle creativity.
In the right hands random generation can inspire creativity.
In the right hands point buy can inspire creativity.

Quote from: Marleycat;7595554d6-drop 1 and reroll "1's".

Same except not dropping the 1's, just 4d6 drop the lowest, put scores where you like; too much point build and it is the same every time.

Quote from: dragoner;759575Same except not dropping the 1's, just 4d6 drop the lowest, put scores where you like; too much point build and it is the same every time.

Like I said that method is literally is just for me the rest of the group does 4d6-drop 1 and arrange to taste. We come out around the same.:)

4d6 drop the lowest and keep rolling until you get something you don't mind and isn't completely taking the piss (maybe a reasonably high roll, a few middling and a low one for example).

Quote from: Marleycat;759578Like I said that method is literally is just for me the rest of the group does 4d6-drop 1 and arrange to taste. We come out around the same.:)

So then you are the lucky one?

Har har ;)

Quote from: dragoner;759581So then you are the lucky one?

Har har ;)

They just want to play not watch me break the laws of probability.

Random works really well in old-school style D&D, where:

1) Stats aren't as important.
2) You'll probably have multiple characters, so that being weak one week is offset by playing the character with awesome stats next week.

It doesn't work nearly as well in games where the assumption is that you'll have one specific character that will be yours for the duration.

Depends on the game system, but for D&D I usually prefer random rolls.  I like the "see what the dice gods give, and make something cool/interesting from it" approach.  

If I were going for more of a "envision a character and then make it so" approach, I'd lean towards just assigning appropriate ability scores, rather than using point buy or standard array.

Quote from: Marleycat;759583They just want to play not watch me break the laws of probability.

That was a pun; we did the same, the unlucky roller usually got a re-roll.

Quote from: Marleycat;759583They just want to play not watch me break the laws of probability.

Not entirely on the subject, but - I admit I always give a reroll on the 1 on HP roll. If it rolls again, tough luck, but first one's free.

Quote from: Rincewind1;759594Not entirely on the subject, but - I admit I always give a reroll on the 1 on HP roll. If it rolls again, tough luck, but first one's free.

We do the same especially if it's 2e or older.

Quote from: dragoner;759590That was a pun; we did the same, the unlucky roller usually got a re-roll.

Heh.:)

For 3e and 4e I like the array. Those editions revolve so much around the class building err.... I'm not even making a char op argument.  It's just that with all the skills, feats, powers, etc. I most of my group doesn't want to run a gimped character that long.

Older editions or DCC straight down the line 3d6. Streamlined rules help and you get wonderfully wacky combos.

Quote from: Rincewind1;759594Not entirely on the subject, but - I admit I always give a reroll on the 1 on HP roll. If it rolls again, tough luck, but first one's free.

We did 1st level gets full hp, it was easier, esp on MU's.

Quote from: dragoner;759600We did 1st level gets full hp, it was easier, esp on MU's.

We did that also. I really think that houserule was the reason for d6 wizards.

Quote from: Omega;759567Not really.

With random you can get some good ideas for off the cuff characters.

With point buy you can end up with cookie cutter min-maxed or baseline walking stat blocks.

I was trying to be succinct, not necessarily accurate.

Recently, all my best characters have been randomly rolled because it forced me into playing something I normally wouldn't.  A lot of people get too caught up in playing the exact character they want, which is sort of like insisting you get the same hand every game of poker. Half the fun of rpgs is trying something new.

I will say that something like B/X is easy as f to randomly play due to the viability of a character with 9s in all abilities. 3.X, I don't care who you are, you're going to feel gypped playing a character with no attribute bonuses. So, yeah, sort of depends on the game in question.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;7595794d6 drop the lowest and keep rolling until you get something you don't mind and isn't completely taking the piss (maybe a reasonably high roll, a few middling and a low one for example).

That has worked pretty well for us. Arrays and point buys leave me cold.

I can live with hardcore 3d6 down the line too.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;7595794d6 drop the lowest and keep rolling until you get something you don't mind and isn't completely taking the piss (maybe a reasonably high roll, a few middling and a low one for example).

This is pretty much the exact reason I prefer to just have PCs pick their stats.  It saves the time of rolling up, buying, or choosing from a list, something they are willing to play.  And in my experience the average results tend to actually be lower.

Quote from: Marleycat;759604We did that also. I really think that houserule was the reason for d6 wizards.

Esp that wizards don't get armor as well, hope for a good dex bonus; we did it standard and found that burning through the low level characters with them getting killed more often just slowed down the game without adding anything extra. We didn't cry that the game was broken either, the rules were just the fiction we agreed to, characters still died, just not so many level 1's.

Quote from: dragoner;759621Esp that wizards don't get armor as well, hope for a good dex bonus; we did it standard and found that burning through the low level characters with them getting killed more often just slowed down the game without adding anything extra. We didn't cry that the game was broken either, the rules were just the fiction we agreed to, characters still died, just not so many level 1's.

Exactly and was a major reason I started playing Gish characters. I just wanted a chance to actually play something above 1st or 2nd level but with death being a real possibility. And my personality doesn't fit Rogues, Bards are too easy and I tend to be Captain Insano with Martial types (fun for me but not so much for my party members).

Quote from: Marleycat;759626Exactly and was a major reason I started playing Gish characters. I just wanted a chance to actually play something above 1st or 2nd level but with death being a real possibility. And my personality doesn't fit Rogues, Bards are too easy and I tend to be Captain Insano with Martial types (fun for me but not so much for my party members).

I've played about everything, even the good old half-orc fighter thief; pickup games, usually the standard fighter though, clerics and druids could get wacky though; never cared much to be a Halfling. Bunch of elves, even *gasp* a drow. I have a feeling if people saw us playing they would say we were doing it wrong back then. Which BTT, the chargen and etc., you really know who is going to gel with the group, people working the charop angle, building a combat monster, often came across as the loner type player who always wanted to be the caller and not work with the party. It might seem a bit harsh, but I've run across more than a few; maybe they would like roll-master better. :D

Quote from: dragoner;759631I've played about everything, even the good old half-orc fighter thief; pickup games, usually the standard fighter though, clerics and druids could get wacky though; never cared much to be a Halfling. Bunch of elves, even *gasp* a drow. I have a feeling if people saw us playing they would say we were doing it wrong back then. Which BTT, the chargen and etc., you really know who is going to gel with the group, people working the charop angle, building a combat monster, often came across as the loner type player who always wanted to be the caller and not work with the party. It might seem a bit harsh, but I've run across more than a few; maybe they would like roll-master better. :D

Rolemaster is fun I mean those critical hit tables are to die for... literally.:)

I swear half the reason I like Warhammer are the critical hit tables, warp tables and the insanity mechanics.

Quote from: Marleycat;759634Rolemaster is fun I mean those critical hit tables are to die for... literally.:)

The crit tables were cool, we started with arms law and claw law 1e, but mostly just adapting back to AD&D per the conversion rules.

The 4e Gamma World had a good system. You get an 18, a 16 and roll 3D6 for the rest. It was fast and worked well. You got the mechanical goodies and the randomness too.

Quote from: Spinachcat;759636The 4e Gamma World had a good system. You get an 18, a 16 and roll 3D6 for the rest. It was fast and worked well. You got the mechanical goodies and the randomness too.

Hmm, you think that work in a straight Dnd game? I ask because I like it. I'd be willing to try it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;759531Point Buy / Standard Array is absolutely necessary in 3e/4e and certainly in any munchkinesque AD&D game. There were plenty of whiny fucks who bitched in the early 80s if their character had any stats without a bonus. Until I see actual 5e game, not the playtest docs, I cannot say how important stats will be in 5e.

However, if stats are -3 to +3 like Labyrinth Lord or -1 to +1 like S&W, then its no big deal to roll the dice. The difference between a +1 STR fighter and a +0 STR fighter isn't a big deal, especially if that +0 STR fighter has some other stat bonus.

I'm using best 3 of 4d6 in order, swap any pair, for both AD&D and Pathfinder. This seems to work well, and creates interesting organic-looking characters. I've come to strongly dislike 'roll then arrange as desired', which is pretty well just point buy with variable points per character. The single swap ensures that the player can have a good number in their preferred attribute if they want.

For 4e D&D I use the standard point buy method, I find 4e stats so divorced from anything meaningful in the game world that they are purely a 'build' mechanism to generate the d20-check modifiers, which is what matters.

The problem in D&D is the strange roll of ability scores. They do not do anything by themselves and you cannot do your shtick without them. (Usually. You can play a Wizard with Int 8 in 5e, apparently.)

So the ability scores interact with your class choice. That means, if you are a clever player, you will spend your ability scores in such a way that they fit your class.

But then, if de facto all clerics are wise, why do we have an extra stat called Wisdom? It's not very elegant. You could simply have a rule for "stuff my class does".

The only way to make sense of ability scores is when you select them before class. Otherwise they are redundant. - So roll in order it is.

Quote from: Marleycat;759640Hmm, you think that work in a straight Dnd game? I ask because I like it. I'd be willing to try it.

You rolled up two origins, a primary and a secondary. Each had a stat attached to it. You could interpret those how you pleased.

Lets say I roll Felinoid and Rat swarm. (You get no choice.) I decide the character is a colony of kittens that form a humanoid shape.

Felinoid is my primary and thats DEX. so 18 there. Rat Swarm is also DEX so instead I get to boost DEX to 20. Then 3d6 in remaining order.

But if say I'd gotten Hawkoid instead, Say its a Griffon. Thats WIS then as the secondary and so I'd have had DEX 18, WIS 16 and the rest 3d6s.

Quote from: 1of3;759672But then, if de facto all clerics are wise, why do we have an extra stat called Wisdom? It's not very elegant. You could simply have a rule for "stuff my class does".

That's genius. That's a really smart, but simple, idea.

---

I like Kiero's method, "everybody rolls, pick whichever set of rolls you want to use". It's random, but you can't end up with a statistically-shit character compared to the rest of the group.

Quote from: 1of3;759672But then, if de facto all clerics are wise, why do we have an extra stat called Wisdom? It's not very elegant. You could simply have a rule for "stuff my class does".

But not all clerics are wise. Some sure as heck didnt select well of who they were following. You know. About 90% of the evil villain priests we all end up shuffling off the mortal coil post haste.

Interpret that vision wrong? oops. Well that was messy.

For that matter not all mages are brainiacs.

For OD&D, we roll 3d6 straight down, as the consequences of low/high rolls are less meaningful in general, whether it's class selection, attribute bonuses or whatever.

For AD&D, we do 4d6 (drop lowest) and then arrange to taste. If none of the AD&D stats are 15 or higher (before racial adjustments), I typically allow the player to roll a new set. Sometimes I will also allow the lowering of one stat by two points to enable the increase of another by one.

In both OD&D and AD&D, I have my players roll up a stable of 3-4 PCs, so as to enable quick replacements for deaths and allow some flexibility from session to session. Also, hirelings are an important part of our games and everyone usually has at least one (if they have enough money).

Quote from: Brad;759543Random if you want to play a game, point-based if you want to play a role.

I don't think it's quite as compartimentalized as that -- I think you can play a game and a role and both make each other more interesting -- but I see what you mean as each method focuses on a different face of the hobby.

3d6 Straight down the line. With point-buy or rigged rolls you never get dumb magic-users, weak fighters, or anyone with a high charisma. Also, I don't feel that "Normal" people would ever become dungeon-crawlers and that they should be a kind of pathetic lot with a lot of low abilities... It's a job that would attract weird losers, drunks, those who couldn't hold real jobs, deserters, disgraced knights, the black sheep and unclaimed bastards of noble families, etc.

For my Mutant Future game I'm considering a system where androids use point-buy and everybody else rolls, so that playing someone who was built has a different feel from playing someone who was born. The real powerful mutations and the possibility of more than one 18 are sacrificed in exchange for getting to play a stable, predicable character in a world of gonzo. The details are still up in the air.

Quote from: 1of3;759672The problem in D&D is the strange roll of ability scores. They do not do anything by themselves and you cannot do your shtick without them. (Usually. You can play a Wizard with Int 8 in 5e, apparently.)

So the ability scores interact with your class choice. That means, if you are a clever player, you will spend your ability scores in such a way that they fit your class.

But then, if de facto all clerics are wise, why do we have an extra stat called Wisdom? It's not very elegant. You could simply have a rule for "stuff my class does".

The only way to make sense of ability scores is when you select them before class. Otherwise they are redundant. - So roll in order it is.

I think another way to look at this, is why aren't there options for strong magic-users, smart fighters, and tough (high Con) thieves, etc...

To some extent we have this with Sorcerer/Wizard, and Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian.  But I would be happier with straight rolling if it made a difference other than "you are worse at what you do if you don't roll as well in your prime stat(s)."  After all, a Str 6, Int 16 fighter is still someone who theoretically knows HOW to fight (tactics and strategy as well).

Anyway, just "thinking out loud."

Quote from: 1of3;759672The problem in D&D is the strange roll of ability scores. They do not do anything by themselves and you cannot do your shtick without them. (Usually. You can play a Wizard with Int 8 in 5e, apparently.)

So the ability scores interact with your class choice. That means, if you are a clever player, you will spend your ability scores in such a way that they fit your class.

But then, if de facto all clerics are wise, why do we have an extra stat called Wisdom? It's not very elegant. You could simply have a rule for "stuff my class does".

Not strange at all, generally in life, you select a career in something you are good at, select for the ability. As per the Wis score, it provides granularity, plus it is more elegant than "stuff my class does".

QuoteThe only way to make sense of ability scores is when you select them before class. Otherwise they are redundant. - So roll in order it is.

What? You are saying two different things.

I like shadowrun 2e's mix of prioritization with limited point-buy.

Otherwise my favoured method is character modelling ala fASERIP, i.e., player describes character, GM assigns stats based on description

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;7597783d6 Straight down the line. With point-buy or rigged rolls you never get dumb magic-users, weak fighters, or anyone with a high charisma. Also, I don't feel that "Normal" people would ever become dungeon-crawlers and that they should be a kind of pathetic lot with a lot of low abilities... It's a job that would attract weird losers, drunks, those who couldn't hold real jobs, deserters, disgraced knights, the black sheep and unclaimed bastards of noble families, etc.

For my Mutant Future game I'm considering a system where androids use point-buy and everybody else rolls, so that playing someone who was built has a different feel from playing someone who was born. The real powerful mutations and the possibility of more than one 18 are sacrificed in exchange for getting to play a stable, predicable character in a world of gonzo. The details are still up in the air.

The 'In Order' aspect is what makes this great. Even 4d6 is ok if it is rolled in order.

However, many players seem to hate 'low' stats.

The more highs stats that are out there, the more boring stats become.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;759566I think I like the idea of the "just pick the stats and submit to the table!"  Can you share some example entries you used for the table?

My table is apparently on the computer that's in storage; went digging everywhere else and couldn't find it. But here are some general details:

The table is based on a 3d6 roll, but there are 34 entries, with low results being better. A player can roll all six of their abilities and request a background roll, which gives a number from 3 to 18; they might do this for the chance of getting a magic item or free heirloom-quality armor, which are examples of the lowest rolls.

Or a player can pick one or more ability scores. If you pick just one score and roll the rest, you roll once on the extras table and add the score you picked to the roll. If you pick two scores, you add whichever score is the higher of the two. This gives resullts from 6 to 36. (Yes, it's unlikely that someone will want to pick a score of 3 for one ability and roll for the rest, but hey, who knows what players might do?)

If you pick 3, 4 or 5 of your scores, you get two rolls on the extras table, same modifier on both rolls. If you pick all 6 of your ability scores, you get three rolls on the table.

Only a few of the low rolls are undeniably good. There are some bad results, and a lot of neutral or weird results, but nothing to punish the player. The focus is on creating plot points. One of the top five bad results is "you've been robbed!", which is basically the same as the heirloom result, but you don't have the heirloom; someone took it from you. You can try to track it down or just skip it. There's another result that says you recently got in a fight; you don't lose any hit points, but you have some bruises, which may affect reaction rolls from some NPCs, and you have a potential enemy somewhere out there that you might run into again.

The worst result is "cursed magic ring", which is a standard (useful) magic ring that can't be removed and thus has unwelcome side effects. Finding someone to cast Remove Curse can become a short-term goal. Or, again, you might skip it for a while and just put up with the downside of being permanently invisible, or whatever side effect comes with the curse.

I remember one of the neutral effects was that you have an extra, free backpack that is magically sealed. You don't know what is in it, but you think you saw it move once or twice. It's up to you to decide what you want to do about it: leave it somewhere, try to sell it, find some way of opening it? I think another one was some sort of "cow charisma" that caused cattle to like you very, very much.

Quote from: Brander;759789Anyway, just "thinking out loud."

As per the suggestion upthread; why not just give people an extra stat, called "Class"? Then you can use that stat or another one, for rolls; if it's relevant to your class, use Class (Or another attribute, if higher), else use the other stat.

So now you can have people be good at their class despite having crap stats in it, which lets you make strong wizards or weak fighters or whatever you want, and they can be both roll- and role-play capable.

It's coming at the "Proficiency" concept from another angle, basically.

For TSR D&D: 3d6 straight down, arrange to taste if you just have to have a certain basic class. I love class pre-requisites, especially those "oppressive" multi/dual class restrictions (sometimes I get lost daydreaming even more). Every other class and kit is optional depending on my setting and cruel viking hat whims. Attributes are useful as I have players roll against them often for various things as the game goes along.

For WotC D&D: I don't willingly play most WotC D&D anymore. I realized through play all those improvements I previously wanted before were wrong for me. However 5e playtest is coming along nicely in our play, so there looks to be an exception in the future.

Quote from: Opaopajr;759958For TSR D&D: 3d6 straight down, arrange to taste if you just have to have a certain basic class. I love class pre-requisites, especially those "oppressive" multi/dual class restrictions (sometimes I get lost daydreaming even more). Every other class and kit is optional depending on my setting and cruel viking hat whims. Attributes are useful as I have players roll against them often for various things as the game goes along.

For WotC D&D: I don't willingly play most WotC D&D anymore. I realized through play all those improvements I previously wanted before were wrong for me. However 5e playtest is coming along nicely in our play, so there looks to be an exception in the future.

Be careful it resembles 2e more then 1e (you really prefer good ability scores in your primary/secondary/tertiary, something like 16/15/14 works nicely).:)

You don't need maximum scores like 3/4e but it does matter like 1/2e.

Quote from: Ladybird;759840As per the suggestion upthread; why not just give people an extra stat, called "Class"? Then you can use that stat or another one, for rolls; if it's relevant to your class, use Class (Or another attribute, if higher), else use the other stat.

So now you can have people be good at their class despite having crap stats in it, which lets you make strong wizards or weak fighters or whatever you want, and they can be both roll- and role-play capable.

It's coming at the "Proficiency" concept from another angle, basically.

And it does open up the game to better supporting the Rincewind and Clouseau tropes as well.

In my view, the only random rolling methods that make sense to me are in order.  Either 3d6 or 4d6 (drop one) in the order of the scores.  That allows you to discover your character and be surprised by it.  It also makes unusual and interesting scores -- maybe the Fighter is a smarty-pants or the rogue is freakishly strong.  

If you are playing a game where character power is driven by scores (*cough* 3rd edition D&D *cough*) then I like elite array.  It is well balanced and it supports playing something that you want to play.  

They can both be fun, but in very different ways.  I am unsure of why you would arrange the order of random rolls.  Mostly that just makes character A > character B, which generally doesn't improve my fun at the table, as people assign the scores in the same pattern, just the amplitude changes.  Giving bonus XP for a high score, like in AD&D, just makes this even worse.

Quote from: talysman;759833My table is apparently on the computer that's in storage; went digging everywhere else and couldn't find it. But here are some general details:

The table is based on a 3d6 roll, but there are 34 entries, with low results being better. A player can roll all six of their abilities and request a background roll, which gives a number from 3 to 18; they might do this for the chance of getting a magic item or free heirloom-quality armor, which are examples of the lowest rolls.

It's like the deadly allure of a Deck of Many Things rolled into character generation. I like it.

Quote from: talysman;759833I remember one of the neutral effects was that you have an extra, free backpack that is magically sealed. You don't know what is in it, but you think you saw it move once or twice. It's up to you to decide what you want to do about it: leave it somewhere, try to sell it, find some way of opening it? I think another one was some sort of "cow charisma" that caused cattle to like you very, very much.

You had me at DoMT character gen, but cow charisma really sealed the deal. When you find the original, please share!

Thanks for giving me the rundown.

Quote from: Brander;759789I think another way to look at this, is why aren't there options for strong magic-users, smart fighters, and tough (high Con) thieves, etc...

To some extent we have this with Sorcerer/Wizard, and Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian.  But I would be happier with straight rolling if it made a difference other than "you are worse at what you do if you don't roll as well in your prime stat(s)."  After all, a Str 6, Int 16 fighter is still someone who theoretically knows HOW to fight (tactics and strategy as well).

Anyway, just "thinking out loud."

Well in AD&D and even BX, a MU with a good strength can carry more, and might even hit a little harder in combat. And if the fighter is down and you are in a flooded room. The mage with the 14 STR and currently the strongest character still standing is also the only one who can try to bend those bars and free the group. (7%, but you might have two or so chances depending on creativity or luck)
The smart fighter will make INT checks to see some viable tactic or to remember some bit of lore or even just to know that obscure language.

Quote from: Marleycat;759965Be careful it resembles 2e more then 1e (you really prefer good ability scores in your primary/secondary/tertiary, something like 16/15/14 works nicely).:)

You don't need maximum scores like 3/4e but it does matter like 1/2e.

In AD&D at least you could get pretty darn far on say a 16. Especially mages since you arent even going to get 9th level spells till level 18 and not that many ever go that far. Or of they do, they have in the interem found a way to likely get those two needed points.

A fighter type can get by with even a 8 STR. They just wont be the pack mule of the group.

In one session my MU was the strongest character in the group with a whopping 14 STR. The fighter rolled a 9 and, but got I think a 17 CON and so played it as it intrigued him. That fighter took absurd levels of punishment and kept on going. My magic user was the group pack mule. heh.

Stats matter. But how they matter is up to individual interpretation.

Quote from: Omega;759997In AD&D at least you could get pretty darn far on say a 16. Especially mages since you arent even going to get 9th level spells till level 18 and not that many ever go that far. Or of they do, they have in the interem found a way to likely get those two needed points.

A fighter type can get by with even a 8 STR. They just wont be the pack mule of the group.

In one session my MU was the strongest character in the group with a whopping 14 STR. The fighter rolled a 9 and, but got I think a 17 CON and so played it as it intrigued him. That fighter took absurd levels of punishment and kept on going. My magic user was the group pack mule. heh.

Stats matter. But how they matter is up to individual interpretation.

True. I was just trying to give you a heads up.:)

Quote from: Marleycat;759965Be careful it resembles 2e more then 1e (you really prefer good ability scores in your primary/secondary/tertiary, something like 16/15/14 works nicely).:)

You don't need maximum scores like 3/4e but it does matter like 1/2e.

Unless something changed since the playtest we are running, I am aware of what you are talking about. It is a touch more cascading impact on integrated parts through that stat mod. Harder to tweak too due to that interconnection. But overall the feel is close enough to 2e to be passable.

IME, 2e characters don't really need much more than a 9 in their chosen class prereq. The rest is gravy to judicious play.

Quote from: Opaopajr;760027Unless something changed since the playtest we are running, I am aware of what you are talking about. It is a touch more cascading impact on integrated parts through that stat mod. Harder to tweak too due to that interconnection. But overall the feel is close enough to 2e to be passable.

IME, 2e characters don't really need much more than a 9 in their chosen class prereq. The rest is gravy to judicious play.

I do think a 9 INT hits a wizard maybe a bit more. But really anybody with a 9 in their primary score? Not good.

Quote from: Marleycat;760041I do think a 9 INT hits a wizard maybe a bit more. But really anybody with a 9 in their primary score? Not good.

9 INT on a wizard means you'd make it up to level 4 spells. That is good to level 9 and past. You'll fail spell learning 35%. but you ccan try again later.

9 STR as noted for a fighter is the threshold for being baseline. No bonuses or penalties.

9 WIS on a cleric means no extra spells and a 20% chance spell failure.

9 DEX means no bonus or penalty to combat. But a -10% on most thieving skills. -20 on move silent.

The Fighter gets it the easiest.. The magic user close second. The Thief and the cleric get the most downside to a 9.

In 5e though a 9 gets you a -1 penalty. 10-11 is the new baseline.

I was thinking it dogged the Rogue but the Cleric hit that bad? Surprising. I usually played fighters, wizards, fighter/mages or bards in 2e. Sometimes rangers (non drizzit types).

Quote from: Marleycat;760048I was thinking it dogged the Rogue but the Cleric hit that bad? Surprising. I usually played fighters, wizards, fighter/mages or bards in 2e. Sometimes rangers (non drizzit types).

Well its only a 1 in 5 chance the cleric will botch a spell.

Continuing, a 9 CON meant you had a 65% chance of system shock survival, and a 75% chance to be successfully raised. No penalty to HP.

9 CHA garnered no bonus or penalty. 4 henchmen tops.

AD&D was mean like that. Yeah.

Luckily since you were likely to be using the 4d6h3 default, low ranges like 9 werent as likely.

Though hilariously I was just rolling a test set and for the first time ever got a 3 with it. (and two 9s.)

Even then, it's still not crippling. A thief can switch to occasional no armor for bonuses, or focus on different skills. A priest is already solid as is. And the fighter sits rather pretty in early levels and by 9th has a spare army.

The wizard still has an array of spells to still find and learn — the amount of 1st thru 4th spells out there is stupendous, esp. see Encyclopedia Magica — and every level brings another to-learn re-roll. By higher levels extra gold gets more ablative armor, a.k.a. hirelings. And once you can start crafting magic items it becomes a source for XP (and quests!) as well as buffering your entourage.

Is it lvl 9 spells? No. But what is? Besides, anything like a well timed Grease spell at the top of the stairs can leave you "inheriting" new spellbooks as anything else. All those potential spells are useless if you didn't memorize them that day, just like a fighter's gear when caught naked.

Taking advantage of the situation is the name of the game. It was something I was missing dearly from modern games I played in.

Quote from: Omega;760050Luckily since you were likely to be using the 4d6h3 default, low ranges like 9 werent as likely.

Though hilariously I was just rolling a test set and for the first time ever got a 3 with it. (and two 9s.)

Ooh, save it and give it to me. I could use another flavorful NPC hireling in my rosters.

Quote from: Opaopajr;760076Ooh, save it and give it to me. I could use another flavorful NPC hireling in my rosters.

In order was. 3, 17, 7, 9, 9, 10.

I think I rolled up the ghost of Otiluke... Someone get me some gauntlets of Kobold Power!

Something interesting I noted with Next's playtest point by method. The more you min-maxed stats. The less actual total stats you ended up with.

13 in each stat netted the max. 78, While trying for a pair of 16s netted the least. 70. (16, 16, 13, 9, 8, 8,)

And the default array matched the point buy limit of 30 points. (16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)

never used "standard arrays" always a variety of random stat generation.  might include roll 4 drop 1 or roll stats, one re-roll.  a few times used both, but not often.  arrays just seem too . . . cookie-cutter?  like just using templates in some systems, rather than pick & choose, mix & match.

Way awesome stats! Took five and whipped up a little monster I was actually needing lately for noble courts:

Algernon, Page Boy (and Spy)
Class: Rogue, Thief.   Lvl: 1.   HD: d6.  Align: NG
STR 3.   -3 to-hit, -1 dmg, 5 Wgt Alw
DEX 17.   -3 AC, +2 react adj., +2 missile to-hit
CON 7.   55% sys. shk.
INT 9.    2 Langs.
WIS 9.
CHA 10.   4 Henchman

--Thief Skills--
Base   PP 15, OL 10 , F/RT 05, MS 10, HiS 05, DN 15, CW 60, RL --
Armor  PP 05, OL --, F/RT --, MS 10, HiS 05, DN --, CW 10, RL --
Dex     PP 05, OL 10, F/RT --, MS 05, HiS 05, DN --, CW --, RL --
1st lv.  PP 05, OL --, F/RT --, MS 05, HiS 05, DN 15, CW --, RL 30

Total.   PP 30, OL 20, F/RT 05, MS 30, HiS 20, DN 30, CW 70, RL 30

--WP/NWP--
WP - Dagger, Sling.    NWP - Forgery, Read Lips.

Looks: Page boy haircut, unisex period finery, delicate hands, androgynous, large naïf eyes, stoic rounded mouth, hazel eyes, raven hair, unblemished skin, frail.

Position: Employed as messenger youth doubling as discreet spy. Picks letters from pockets, overhears conversation, cat burgles intel, and forger. In emergency, relies on silence, social position, and naïf youth look to excuse from suspicion.

Excellent... :pundit:

I keep forgetting that 5e and some other versions have a different stat pattern.

I've always like randomness--that's why I usually do 4d6, drop lowest. In my C&C game, it's 4d6, drop lowest, assign in order, but you can swap two stats with other stats. It's sort of a compromise between playing the hand you're dealt and getting to tweak things. I've never liked standard array at all--I've just always thought rolling stats was a fun part of char gen.

I don't normally care about different stat generation methods that much, but the thread last week about Beyond the Wall encouraged me to check it out, and they have a really fascinating generation method in that. Each character starts off with a "play-book" for their life-path up to first level, for example a Witch's Apprentice or a Village Hero, and you start with 8 in each stat, but 12 in one (STR for the Village Hero), or 10 in two, I think WIS and INT for the Witch's Apprentice, then by rolling on random tables to do with backgrounds and life events, you add a +1 here, a +2 there, a skill, a spell ... And then in recent events, you even add, say, a +2 DEX to your character for a relevant event, and +1 DEX to the character OF THE PERSON SITTING TO YOUR LEFT, who was there with you and helped you out of a sticky situation. You add class abilities as you go, with relevant life events, and finally get a quirky item at the end, and standard equipment for your background. You end up with characters that often are left with 8 in one or two stats and maybe one 18, or else are more rounded across the board, but it's a fascinating way of tying stats to history, a little bit like the method evoked up-thread for rolling background in return for choosing stats, but here they actually impact each other, with the "story" of each stat and skill baked into your character. You play this as a mini-game going round the table and expanding on your character's history and those who grew up around you, even, in the more complex version, placing NPCs and locations on the gradually growing map of the village where you all grew up as you roll relevant life-events. It's really very cool indeed.

However, in my recent RuneQuest game, I went with what someone mentioned happens in FASERIP, where I got the players to just describe their characters to me, and then I chose their stats and skills, with a bit of back-and-forth and negotiation. It led to really cool characters, with no limits as regards classes and powers (though this is a feature of RuneQuest anyway), but the players felt really free to request a character they wanted to play, and even mentioned weaknesses and flaws, and it was up to me as the GM to translate their concepts into mechanics. No one had a problem with the stats I gave them ...

I did chargen for M&M today and the base game suggests a standard array of 10 in each attribute.

I gave the Players an option of using that or rolling. The rolling rules were they rolled 4d6 drop highest for 3 attributes (named and rolled in order) and 3d6 (named and rolled in order) for the other three.

They voted unanimously to roll not take 10s. Obviously its a game where you can increase those base attributes very easily (in fact you are almost rolling for a pool of attribute points you can distribute at whim so so the dice model I offered was going to mathematically yield a slight benefit over a straight pool of 60 points) but they still opted for a random generation.

Going to start Yet Another D&D(ish) campaign (probably Castles & Crusades because it requires zero effort on my part to run combats...I think I'm finally being swayed toward high AC vs. low AC w/table due to laziness). Most likely I'm going to use 3d5+3, which is mathematically equivalent (http://game.truculent.org/game-info/attribute-generation/) to 3d6, reroll ones.

I suppose 2d6+6 would work just as well (when considering the lowest possible attribute modifier)...anyone have an opinion of that?

Quote from: jibbajibba;760277I gave the Players an option of using that or rolling. The rolling rules were they rolled 4d6 drop highest for 3 attributes (named and rolled in order).

Drop highest?

I prefer, and usually use, 4d6 drop lowest.  However, I have done array (usually when the DM wants it that way) and have had no issue with it.  But I prefer the risk associated with randomness

Quote from: Omega;760045In 5e though a 9 gets you a -1 penalty. 10-11 is the new baseline.

Unfortunately, due to 3e and 4e, the new baseline is 18. And this isn't new. There were plenty of players from 1e/2e era who bitched if their character didn't have an 18 in a prime stat.

I blame 1e for the stat inflation. That's why I always preferred B/X where you got a +1 at 13 and +2 at 16 so players didn't groan (as much) rolling stats.

Quote from: Brad;760280I suppose 2d6+6 would work just as well (when considering the lowest possible attribute modifier)...anyone have an opinion of that?

I knew plenty of DMs from the old days who did that. They also did 6+D6 for Traveller stats. Your average stat becomes 13 and if you are doing C&C, that should make players happy.

If we're talking D&D stats, I dont really know why they bother keeping the stat range when all the game uses is the bonuses.

Quote from: TristramEvans;760323If we're talking D&D stats, I dont really know why they bother keeping the stat range when all the game uses is the bonuses.

In most of the D&D games I've played in, there has been an attribute roll system of "roll under stat with XD6" where X is an arbitrary number of dice, increasing in number as the roll got harder. It definitely makes the difference between a 9 and a 12 much more important.

Quote from: Chainsaw;760281Drop highest?

Yeah sorry wrote that at 1am when I should have already been asleep

Quote from: Brad;760280Going to start Yet Another D&D(ish) campaign (probably Castles & Crusades because it requires zero effort on my part to run combats...I think I'm finally being swayed toward high AC vs. low AC w/table due to laziness). Most likely I'm going to use 3d5+3, which is mathematically equivalent (http://game.truculent.org/game-info/attribute-generation/) to 3d6, reroll ones.

I suppose 2d6+6 would work just as well (when considering the lowest possible attribute modifier)...anyone have an opinion of that?

2d6+6 is what RQ6 uses for Size and Int, so you don't get a Lenny or a Halfling-sized human, rest is 3d6.  2d6+6 just gives you characters without any major flaws.  Conan D20, in which the characters were more hardy, was 10+1d8.

It all depends on what you're going for.  If it's just extreme flaw prevention then 2d6+6 is fine or you could say 3d6 minimum of whatever you want.

Quote from: Brad;760280I suppose 2d6+6 would work just as well (when considering the lowest possible attribute modifier)...anyone have an opinion of that?

2d6+6 will net on average scores of 13 at the peak of the bell. With sharp drop offs on the sides. Lowest score will be 8.

whereas 3d6 will average 10-11 at the peak. But with a more gradual drop off on the sides. Almost a 9-12. Lowest score will be 3. But not very often.

Quote from: TristramEvans;760323If we're talking D&D stats, I dont really know why they bother keeping the stat range when all the game uses is the bonuses.

DMG suggests stat checks to cover the unforeseen. Several modules have stat checks for this or that event.

INT check to remember some fact, CHA check to resist a charlatan, DEX check for some traps.

2d6+6 basically guarantees nothing better then a 13 for me and more 8's then you can actually believe can actually be possible.:)

5d6 like Dark Sun.... what are the general thoughs?

Quote from: Marleycat;7604042d6+6 basically guarantees nothing better then a 13 for me and more 8's then you can actually believe can actually be possible.:)

5d6 like Dark Sun.... what are the general thoughs?

What version of Dark sun used 5d6? I dont have the boxes handy?

Quote from: Omega;760398DMG suggests stat checks to cover the unforeseen. Several modules have stat checks for this or that event.

INT check to remember some fact, CHA check to resist a charlatan, DEX check for some traps.

but that could easily be changed to d20 + bonus vs DC

I moved my heartbreaker to bonus only because it just seemed like common sense and saved space on the character sheet.

Quote from: TristramEvans;760323If we're talking D&D stats, I dont really know why they bother keeping the stat range when all the game uses is the bonuses.

Again. that's WotC. TSR had multiple functions, many situation dependent or optional, that'd check attributes. And when I run my campaign rolling against attributes is one of the easiest improv functions I have available.

Quote from: Omega;760420What version of Dark sun used 5d6? I dont have the boxes handy?

I know the 2e version did. The first one. Was just wondering what kind of stats would that method be expected to produce.

Quote from: Opaopajr;760426Again. that's WotC. TSR had multiple functions, many situation dependent or optional, that'd check attributes. And when I run my campaign rolling against attributes is one of the easiest improv functions I have available.

Looks like 5e is going back to that at least in some form.

Quote from: Marleycat;760515I know the 2e version did. The first one. Was just wondering what kind of stats would that method be expected to produce.

Very high stats, but the setting is supposed to be uber deadly.

Like, you try and cut open a cactus for water as you are dying of thirst in the desert, and the Cactus uses deadly psionics on you, and then desert undead swarm you, then the vultures gather....

Quote from: Bill;760519Very high stats, but the setting is supposed to be uber deadly.

Like, you try and cut open a cactus for water as you are dying of thirst in the desert, and the Cactus uses deadly psionics on you, and then desert undead swarm you, then the vultures gather....

then the vultures gather....

...and use deadly psionics on you.

Hehe. Actually I'm wrong Dark Sun used 5d4. Either way you should know right from the start that any Dnd setting allowing for 20 as a basic ability score means you're boned from the start.

Either, depending on the campaign.

Quote from: Marleycat;760524Hehe. Actually I'm wrong Dark Sun used 5d4. Either way you should know right from the start that any Dnd setting allowing for 20 as a basic ability score means you're boned from the start.

If I recall correctly, you're right about the 5d4.  You also started at level 3, didn't you?

I ignored both of those when I ran Dark Sun, I found them kind of silly.

Quote from: RPGPundit;763189If I recall correctly, you're right about the 5d4.  You also started at level 3, didn't you?

I ignored both of those when I ran Dark Sun, I found them kind of silly.

Yes, obviously should have been 6d4 and starting level 5.

Quote from: RPGPundit;763189If I recall correctly, you're right about the 5d4.  You also started at level 3, didn't you?

I ignored both of those when I ran Dark Sun, I found them kind of silly.

Pretty sure it was 3rd. But Omega is right 6d4 and level 5 might mean you live for 2 minutes or so.:)

Quote from: Brad;759543Random if you want to play a game, point-based if you want to play a role.

I like to see what roll emerges out of the random. Random isn't always my ideal, but sometimes it's just what I want.

I'm all for random rolls. Most players I've played with don't mind it, and don't seem to have the penis envy that comes from someone else having higher stats. They know there's more to the game than your stat array.

Quote from: cranebump;763220I'm all for random rolls. Most players I've played with don't mind it, and don't seem to have the penis envy that comes from someone else having higher stats. They know there's more to the game than your stat array.

I wish every player could handle it, but I know some players that like to use 'arrays' because of The Envy.