Rolling for Ability Scores vs. Standard Array

Brander · June 20, 2014, 12:02:22 AM

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;7595794d6 drop the lowest and keep rolling until you get something you don't mind and isn't completely taking the piss (maybe a reasonably high roll, a few middling and a low one for example).

This is pretty much the exact reason I prefer to just have PCs pick their stats. It saves the time of rolling up, buying, or choosing from a list, something they are willing to play. And in my experience the average results tend to actually be lower.

dragoner · June 20, 2014, 12:04:34 AM

Quote from: Marleycat;759604We did that also. I really think that houserule was the reason for d6 wizards.

Esp that wizards don't get armor as well, hope for a good dex bonus; we did it standard and found that burning through the low level characters with them getting killed more often just slowed down the game without adding anything extra. We didn't cry that the game was broken either, the rules were just the fiction we agreed to, characters still died, just not so many level 1's.

Marleycat · June 20, 2014, 12:18:14 AM

Quote from: dragoner;759621Esp that wizards don't get armor as well, hope for a good dex bonus; we did it standard and found that burning through the low level characters with them getting killed more often just slowed down the game without adding anything extra. We didn't cry that the game was broken either, the rules were just the fiction we agreed to, characters still died, just not so many level 1's.

Exactly and was a major reason I started playing Gish characters. I just wanted a chance to actually play something above 1st or 2nd level but with death being a real possibility. And my personality doesn't fit Rogues, Bards are too easy and I tend to be Captain Insano with Martial types (fun for me but not so much for my party members).

dragoner · June 20, 2014, 12:37:53 AM

Quote from: Marleycat;759626Exactly and was a major reason I started playing Gish characters. I just wanted a chance to actually play something above 1st or 2nd level but with death being a real possibility. And my personality doesn't fit Rogues, Bards are too easy and I tend to be Captain Insano with Martial types (fun for me but not so much for my party members).

I've played about everything, even the good old half-orc fighter thief; pickup games, usually the standard fighter though, clerics and druids could get wacky though; never cared much to be a Halfling. Bunch of elves, even *gasp* a drow. I have a feeling if people saw us playing they would say we were doing it wrong back then. Which BTT, the chargen and etc., you really know who is going to gel with the group, people working the charop angle, building a combat monster, often came across as the loner type player who always wanted to be the caller and not work with the party. It might seem a bit harsh, but I've run across more than a few; maybe they would like roll-master better.

Marleycat · June 20, 2014, 12:42:05 AM

Quote from: dragoner;759631I've played about everything, even the good old half-orc fighter thief; pickup games, usually the standard fighter though, clerics and druids could get wacky though; never cared much to be a Halfling. Bunch of elves, even *gasp* a drow. I have a feeling if people saw us playing they would say we were doing it wrong back then. Which BTT, the chargen and etc., you really know who is going to gel with the group, people working the charop angle, building a combat monster, often came across as the loner type player who always wanted to be the caller and not work with the party. It might seem a bit harsh, but I've run across more than a few; maybe they would like roll-master better.

Rolemaster is fun I mean those critical hit tables are to die for... literally.

I swear half the reason I like Warhammer are the critical hit tables, warp tables and the insanity mechanics.

dragoner · June 20, 2014, 12:47:29 AM

Quote from: Marleycat;759634Rolemaster is fun I mean those critical hit tables are to die for... literally.

The crit tables were cool, we started with arms law and claw law 1e, but mostly just adapting back to AD&D per the conversion rules.

Spinachcat · June 20, 2014, 12:53:29 AM

The 4e Gamma World had a good system. You get an 18, a 16 and roll 3D6 for the rest. It was fast and worked well. You got the mechanical goodies and the randomness too.

Marleycat · June 20, 2014, 01:09:52 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat;759636The 4e Gamma World had a good system. You get an 18, a 16 and roll 3D6 for the rest. It was fast and worked well. You got the mechanical goodies and the randomness too.

Hmm, you think that work in a straight Dnd game? I ask because I like it. I'd be willing to try it.

S'mon · June 20, 2014, 02:49:21 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat;759531Point Buy / Standard Array is absolutely necessary in 3e/4e and certainly in any munchkinesque AD&D game. There were plenty of whiny fucks who bitched in the early 80s if their character had any stats without a bonus. Until I see actual 5e game, not the playtest docs, I cannot say how important stats will be in 5e.

However, if stats are -3 to +3 like Labyrinth Lord or -1 to +1 like S&W, then its no big deal to roll the dice. The difference between a +1 STR fighter and a +0 STR fighter isn't a big deal, especially if that +0 STR fighter has some other stat bonus.

I'm using best 3 of 4d6 in order, swap any pair, for both AD&D and Pathfinder. This seems to work well, and creates interesting organic-looking characters. I've come to strongly dislike 'roll then arrange as desired', which is pretty well just point buy with variable points per character. The single swap ensures that the player can have a good number in their preferred attribute if they want.

For 4e D&D I use the standard point buy method, I find 4e stats so divorced from anything meaningful in the game world that they are purely a 'build' mechanism to generate the d20-check modifiers, which is what matters.

1of3 · June 20, 2014, 02:59:51 AM

The problem in D&D is the strange roll of ability scores. They do not do anything by themselves and you cannot do your shtick without them. (Usually. You can play a Wizard with Int 8 in 5e, apparently.)

So the ability scores interact with your class choice. That means, if you are a clever player, you will spend your ability scores in such a way that they fit your class.

But then, if de facto all clerics are wise, why do we have an extra stat called Wisdom? It's not very elegant. You could simply have a rule for "stuff my class does".

The only way to make sense of ability scores is when you select them before class. Otherwise they are redundant. - So roll in order it is.

Omega · June 20, 2014, 04:53:49 AM

Quote from: Marleycat;759640Hmm, you think that work in a straight Dnd game? I ask because I like it. I'd be willing to try it.

You rolled up two origins, a primary and a secondary. Each had a stat attached to it. You could interpret those how you pleased.

Lets say I roll Felinoid and Rat swarm. (You get no choice.) I decide the character is a colony of kittens that form a humanoid shape.

Felinoid is my primary and thats DEX. so 18 there. Rat Swarm is also DEX so instead I get to boost DEX to 20. Then 3d6 in remaining order.

But if say I'd gotten Hawkoid instead, Say its a Griffon. Thats WIS then as the secondary and so I'd have had DEX 18, WIS 16 and the rest 3d6s.

Ladybird · June 20, 2014, 06:56:41 AM

Quote from: 1of3;759672But then, if de facto all clerics are wise, why do we have an extra stat called Wisdom? It's not very elegant. You could simply have a rule for "stuff my class does".

That's genius. That's a really smart, but simple, idea.

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I like Kiero's method, "everybody rolls, pick whichever set of rolls you want to use". It's random, but you can't end up with a statistically-shit character compared to the rest of the group.

Omega · June 20, 2014, 07:08:29 AM

Quote from: 1of3;759672But then, if de facto all clerics are wise, why do we have an extra stat called Wisdom? It's not very elegant. You could simply have a rule for "stuff my class does".

But not all clerics are wise. Some sure as heck didnt select well of who they were following. You know. About 90% of the evil villain priests we all end up shuffling off the mortal coil post haste.

Interpret that vision wrong? oops. Well that was messy.

For that matter not all mages are brainiacs.

Chainsaw · June 20, 2014, 07:38:14 AM

For OD&D, we roll 3d6 straight down, as the consequences of low/high rolls are less meaningful in general, whether it's class selection, attribute bonuses or whatever.

For AD&D, we do 4d6 (drop lowest) and then arrange to taste. If none of the AD&D stats are 15 or higher (before racial adjustments), I typically allow the player to roll a new set. Sometimes I will also allow the lowering of one stat by two points to enable the increase of another by one.

In both OD&D and AD&D, I have my players roll up a stable of 3-4 PCs, so as to enable quick replacements for deaths and allow some flexibility from session to session. Also, hirelings are an important part of our games and everyone usually has at least one (if they have enough money).

The Butcher · June 20, 2014, 10:21:57 AM

Quote from: Brad;759543Random if you want to play a game, point-based if you want to play a role.

I don't think it's quite as compartimentalized as that -- I think you can play a game and a role and both make each other more interesting -- but I see what you mean as each method focuses on a different face of the hobby.