What it says on the tin. This might take awhile and you might get dirty so don't wear any nice clothes. Shut the garage door and let the wife and kids know you are not to be disturbed for the day. Beer might help.
The hard part: Keep it as backwards-compatible as possible so characters and books from previous editions don't become compost.
Make weapons do direct HP damage (yes, including clubs and staves, but allow for non-lethal to do just S.D.C. damage)
Change the HP per level to S.D.C. per level.
As for Megadamage, I dunno what to tell you, that shit gets complex. It needs a scaling system.
Eh. I got the Palladium RPG because I liked the weapon & armor & castles books.
I didn't like the setting with all its crazy pile of everything and so many unbelievable creatures and piles of magic and monsters and faeries and wolfen and who know what.
So I tried to salvage what I could to use for my TFT games, and ended up deciding I didn't want to use any of it. I appreciated a few select parts. I liked the variety of magic systems, and some nice details like the art for different currency, but I ended up using nothing. The sample scenario at the end was interesting in that it was slightly simulationist, and then insanely high-powered and deadly if you got far enough.
The way I'd fix it would be to use a system I like instead, but I don't like the setting. I have been tempted to run the sample scenario as a one-off or something, but just because it's so insane at the end and so would be surprising and memorable. But I'd just use GURPS & my houserules, like I almost always do for everything anyway.
To make it right for me (in theory, completely untested):
Hit points don't increase with levels, but SDC does. When SDC is worn down damage goes to hit points, but criticals do (normal) damage to hit points direct and ignore SDC. When hit points are gone you're dying/dead. Criticals are scary.
(It's been ages since I've played a Palladium game, and I don't remember how often criticals come up, so this might make combat way too deadly. But it's an idea.)
Simplified skill lists. I saw somewhere, maybe even here, a suggestion that instead of the long lists of skills now, you just use the heading for that skill list category. Or at least bring it down to a few more widely applicable skills in each category. We don't need (Rifts Ultimate Edition) Horsemanship: General AND Horsemanship: Cowboy AND Horsemanship: Cossack as separate skills, right? So many Pilot skills?
Appropriate attributes provide a bonus of their score to skill checks, so that the score means something. Picking Pockets? Just add your Physical Prowess. Trying to pick pockets by distracting the target with cleavage? Add your Physical Beauty this time.
System-wise, that's about it for me offhand. You'd still have to deal with the setting elements in, say, Rifts, where MDC weapons and armour are a Big Deal, but almost everyone lugging around vehicle-scale weapons and armour would be a Big Deal in any system if you're the poor soul who doesn't happen to have them.
What exactly needs to be fixed? All I ever hear is good things about it.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;881989The hard part: Keep it as backwards-compatible as possible so characters and books from previous editions don't become compost.
Honestly, I wouldn't try that hard. Go for emulating concepts over specific mechanics. Use either a "loose emulation" system like Fate or a toolbox game like Hero to recreate as needed.
I could see retooling RIFTS as a class based system that works, but that sounds like a bit too much effort.
Edit: Honestly, my #1 beef with Palladium is the odious skill system. If I was going for a simple quick fix, I'd rip out the percentile system and just plunk in Pathfinder's system for resolution, just using level in place of ranks.
Runequest-style skills. Instead of being based on level, if a character uses a skill, it has a chance to go up.
Attacks per round. Instead of rolling tons of dice, all attacks can should be made with one roll. A higher roll means on the attack means you get off more hits that rounds.
Attributes should mean something beyond high results.
Wasn't there a Rifts Savage Worlds in the works? Seems like that should go a long way to fixing things.
Palladiu Fantasy 1e doesn't need to be fixed.
Easy. Roll things back to pre Rifts. Use Beyond the Supernatural, TMNT or Palladium Fantasy.
I'm posting to sub because if Savage Worlds Rifts doesn't cut it for me, for whatever reason, I'm rolling up sleeves myself.
My chief gripe is the skill system. It's clunky as hell during character creation, and the granularity adds very little, but at the same time it plays a limited role, balancing (yeah, I know) combat ability with Hand To Hand and Robot Combat skill taxes. Of course, on the gripping hand, skill taxes are kinda dumb.
Pundit's hack (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=10809) is a step in the right direction but I really feel we should go further, and ideally find a non-finicky, non-chargen-dragging method that still allows for skill-monkey characters like Rogue Scholars and Wilderness Scouts.
Quote from: Frey;882109Palladiu Fantasy 1e doesn't need to be fixed.
This mainly!
No SDC for people. That's the biggest one. No PPE for spells or at least fix the cost to the level so it's uniform. Everyone rolls for psionics so even the Mercenary Fighter might have some interesting minor abilities. No physical skills. Well, okay not so much no physical skills but they work just like all the other skills. But all skills improve an attribute by one point.
Quote from: Frey;882109Palladiu Fantasy 1e doesn't need to be fixed.
As long as you realize that somethings are broken, like the AD&D style magic, then yes. It's fine. It IS a better game than Mechanoids (The first Palladium game) but it needs a lot of work. Especially the hand to hand training as some of it was redundant.
Quote from: Omega;882110Easy. Roll things back to pre Rifts. Use Beyond the Supernatural, TMNT or Palladium Fantasy.
No, SDC was still out of control. I remember a 5d6 SDC Magnum (which was the most powerful weapon in the game) couldn't take out a normal NPC in a single shot. Now, assuming we're talking a supernatural creature, you didn't have enough silver rounds to even make a scratch.
The system needs balancing.
We just removed SDC from people and animals in BTS and applied it only when something was actually wearing armour, or naturally armoured.
Combats get really deadly really fast.
A possible -simplicistic- solution to MDC/SDC :
Drop the 1MDC=100SDC conversion
Normally attacks reduce SDC first , then HP
SDC raise with level but not HP
Critical damage lowers HP and not SDC (Maybe lower starting SDC for everyone too)
MDC weapons ignore personal armor and automatically damage HP
Personal weapons damage MDC-class stuff only on a critical hit (or require a roll of 15+ to damage?)
Why? Whatever did I do to you? :idunno: :(
I'd recommend using The Palladium Role Playing Game (revised!) as a base. Bring back the level charts for the skills- it makes creating adversaries on the fly easy.
Quote from: Certified;882106Wasn't there a Rifts Savage Worlds in the works? Seems like that should go a long way to fixing things.
Allegedly it'll be out this summer. But they said they wouldn't announce it until they were positive it was going to meet whatever deadline they set.
Definitely looking forward to it.
Yeah, other than the skill system, I don't think there's really anything about Palladium's base rules that need fixing.
There's stuff in specific iterations of it that you may like better or worse.
You could also argue that it needs better organizing.
Quote from: RPGPundit;882913Yeah, other than the skill system, I don't think there's really anything about Palladium's base rules that need fixing.
The amount of health points everything has on average is not an issue? Killing shit was damn hard in Palladium's various games.
Quote from: RPGPundit;882913There's stuff in specific iterations of it that you may like better or worse.
Like picking out what the -10 Dodge against ranged attacks does.
Quote from: RPGPundit;882913You could also argue that it needs better organizing.
No argument there.
My hack was running Rifts fluff with the Mechanoids system, modified slightly here and there.
I have no problem hacking SDC/MDC/HP stats in half for NPCs/Monsters. I have no compunction for non-player bits to have to agree with player bits.
Quote from: Spinachcat;883103My hack was running Rifts fluff with the Mechanoids system, modified slightly here and there.
I have no problem hacking SDC/MDC/HP stats in half for NPCs/Monsters. I have no compunction for non-player bits to have to agree with player bits.
The issue of MDC is that you can have a group of five soldiers in basic heavy gear with medium rifles able to take out a tank in a single round. The average robot/tank will have 7-8 actions it can take a round, all of which are likely weapon based. Whereas a group of five men will have between a total of 20 to 25 per round.
And worse, spec wise, the Robot/Tank is not going to have weaponry any more power (in terms of average, raw damage dice), nor will the average sensor system by any better than what the soldiers/adventurer's will have.
Militarily speaking, that means none of the super powers would actually design anything of that magnitude because it's costs millions of dollars (assuming the credit count is accurate) to make one, and you can spend the same amount outfitting about 20 troopers with rifles, armour as well as feed and house them for about a year. Per single Robot.
Unfortunately adding a scaling damage system destroys the point of MDC.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;883177The issue of MDC is that you can have a group of five soldiers in basic heavy gear with medium rifles able to take out a tank in a single round.
True. That's another reason I use the original Mechanoids system. It doesn't have those issues. In fact, it has the reverse with often too high SDC values.
Quote from: Certified;882106Wasn't there a Rifts Savage Worlds in the works? Seems like that should go a long way to fixing things.
That's the solution I'm most looking forward to. Though I don't like Savage Worlds Heavy Armor solution any more than I like MDC.
I think it would be interesting if Siembeda published the system he uses to play the game, which I understand is a rather modified version of what he puts in the books. Though perhaps this is just a rumor.
I do think Pundit may be on to something in suggesting reorganization of the rules.
rifts? Really?
Insert witty threadcrap here.
Quote from: Brander;883304That's the solution I'm most looking forward to. Though I don't like Savage Worlds Heavy Armor solution any more than I like MDC.
Sean Patrick Fannon has hinted several times over at Google+ and other fora that he's tinkering with SW mechanics for a conversion that works with the Rifts universe as written. So I'm not sure we'll see "MDC = Heavy Armor, done" and in fact I'm looking forward to check out how he's handled it.
Quote from: Brander;883304I think it would be interesting if Siembeda published the system he uses to play the game, which I understand is a rather modified version of what he puts in the books. Though perhaps this is just a rumor.
What I recall reading from old Palladium Open House reports is that Siembieda does near-freeform. If there's a coherent system behind his GMing I, too, would love to see it.
Quote from: Brander;883304I do think Pundit may be on to something in suggesting reorganization of the rules.
No kidding. A decent revision by a keen editor would bridge a bunch of gaps. The Palladium system is not nearly as "bad" as it is poorly presented.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;883318rifts? Really?
Insert witty threadcrap here.
Maybe I just got bitten by the Rifts bug at the right age (14) but fandom's stuck with me ever since. Even after nearly 20 years without buying a new book.
Quote from: The Butcher;883321Maybe I just got bitten by the Rifts bug at the right age (14) but fandom's stuck with me ever since. Even after nearly 20 years without buying a new book.
14, the perfect age for Rifts. This cover art still appeals to 14 year old me and my Iron Maiden album art collection.
(http://img15.nnm.me/9/3/3/a/9/fae94d7cbb336c4df2617ea2f67.gif)
Also,
http://www.somethingawful.com/dungeons-and-dragons/wtf-dnd-rifts/1/
Quote from: Brander;883304I think it would be interesting if Siembeda published the system he uses to play the game, which I understand is a rather modified version of what he puts in the books.
I've gamed with Kevin at the Palladium Open House. He's a good GM, lots of fun, does great handling a large number of players, and I didn't see him care a wit about most of the rules. It was all setting, speed, heroics, danger and atmosphere with some dice tossing to adjudicate stuff.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;883318rifts? Really?
Insert witty threadcrap here.
Rifts eats witty threadcraps for breakfast.
No seriously. The emperor in 40k eats souls to survive. Rifts senses threadcraps and feeds upon them for achieve RPG immortality.
Quote from: Certified;88332414, the perfect age for Rifts. This cover art still appeals to 14 year old me and my Iron Maiden album art collection.
Wow. I somehow never saw that cover before. METAL.
Does anyone know if there are any Heroes Unlimited resources that have pre-constructed packages for robots and/or power armor (So that character generation for those heroes won't take hours)?
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;883385Wow. I somehow never saw that cover before. METAL.
Does anyone know if there are any Heroes Unlimited resources that have pre-constructed packages for robots and/or power armor (So that character generation for those heroes won't take hours)?
Some of the HU sourcebooks have pre-made power armor and robots. Century Station, Villains Unlimited, and Aliens Unlimited off the top of my head.
Quote from: Brander;883304I think it would be interesting if Siembeda published the system he uses to play the game, which I understand is a rather modified version of what he puts in the books. Though perhaps this is just a rumor.
From what I understand, Kevin is big time Rule Zero (although I doubt he has ever referred to it as such), and the games he runs are less about rules and dice rolling, and more about players explaining what their character is doing. I would love to go to the Open House sometime and play in one of his games just for the experience. I imagine my style, having started GMing with Palladium, is a little bit similar.
In the Rifts GM Guide, he gives a "quick and dirty" set of rules for modern combat, explaining that the regular modern combat rules were created to simulate actual combat, which doesn't really go with the rest of the game all that well. I always applied modifiers as a GM for things I thought deserved it, like shooting at moving targets or long distance shooting in high wind, or if a target has partial cover, etc. These were later given official rulings, but that was after I stopped running Palladium.
I never really thought there was an issue with Palladium's rules until I went on the internet and read all the hate. Mostly from people who never actually played, or who described the "rules," used which were very obviously not RAW, but crappy GM fiat.
What I would change? The skill system as presented by OCC. One of the biggest annoyances of character creation is flipping through the book to get skill percentages. The OCCs list the available skills, with bonuses. Why not list the skill with the percentage? Then you can just write it down and move on.
Like Pundit, I would make all skills have the same base percentage, and increase by the same amount. However, I would (and have in the past) track which skills are actually used and only those skills increase when leveling up.
Quote from: Certified;88332414, the perfect age for Rifts. This cover art still appeals to 14 year old me and my Iron Maiden album art collection.
Yeah, Iron Maiden, too, was part of that heady mix. Blaze Bayley years, but hey, you gotta play the hand life deals you.
Quote from: The Butcher;883718Yeah, Iron Maiden, too, was part of that heady mix. Blaze Bayley years, but hey, you gotta play the hand life deals you.
You were 14 in '94?
Oh Mitra, have mercy on the old and decrepit. :D
Quote from: The Butcher;883718Yeah, Iron Maiden, too, was part of that heady mix. Blaze Bayley years, but hey, you gotta play the hand life deals you.
Blaze who now?
Quote from: CRKrueger;883733You were 14 in '94?
Oh Mitra, have mercy on the old and decrepit. :D
Hey! They weren't the only one! However, I DO feel old and decrepit some times.
I think Butcher and I were in the sweet spot of the Palladium era. For me, my choices were wargaming (I still play Battletech, actually), Vampire (no), and AD&D. I didn't like playing with the AD&D crowd that I knew, and being a shitty little punk, I had to be different. I was into TMNT comics (and the cartoon when I was a little kid) and Robotech, so that was my gateway.
I think that was the best time to get into Palladium. KS was at his peak creatively and production-wise. Multiple game lines were getting supported. It was like they were putting out a book every week for at least one line. And 14 year old me bought as many of them as I could!
Please keep in mind, I played Palladium games A LOT when I was younger. I still love the setting for Rifts, but the system...ack, no.
*cracks knuckles*
*Magic: Use a system like Shadowrun, where spells drain the caster and the caster can try to resist it. Sure, you might be able to throw powerful fireballs all day...and you might get wiped out the first time you try to turn invisible (not likely but it COULD happen).
*Combat-Damage: Get rid of separate hit and damage rolls. Weapons do X damage, better if you hit better (there are systems where your margin of success directly translates to better damage. I like this)
*Combat-Hitting things: Make the combat skills actually mean something. If someone decides to devote a lot of skill points to their skill with a sword, or pistol, or energy rifle, let them. Redo (better yet, eliminate) the critical damage/fumble rules. As it is, a character who's a combat monster has....a 5% (maybe 10%, 15%, whatever, if they crit on a natural 19+, 18+) chance of a critical hit. And a 5% chance of fumbling. A fresh-off-the-factory-floor CS soldier, mutant turtle, fantasy fighter, whatever, has...a 5% chance of getting a crit and a 5% chance of fumbling. Really? This is another reason I like margin-based systems.
*Level system: Get rid of it.
Assign X number of skill points at character creation. You want 20 skills at a rating of 1, that's your business. Sure, there's a lot you can do...you just can't do ANYTHING well. Conversely, if you want to be a one-trick-pony and put all 20 points into Laser Rifles and Sneaking, OK, great, guess we'll see how that works out for you. Good luck (and I truly mean that).
Give XP, karma, whatever, for various tasks during the adventure. The players use these points to improve their characters. Your Strength sucks? Use double the new rating XP/karma/SuckaPoints to raise it.
*No more HP/level. A character's ability to withstand damage is directly related to how tough they are. Want to be able to take a direct blast from a shotgun at point blank range and laugh? (Not in my games you won't, but that's a different story) Invest heavily into Body/Toughness/Endurance/Strength/BulletSoak.
*Mega-Damage: No more of this "armor takes so many hits and you're completely fine, then suddenly you're vaporized". Armor can stop X amount of damage, based on it's capacity, per hit. Anything higher gets thru. The armor DID manage to mitigate the damage, though, so the wearer takes damage at a 1:1 ratio, scaling from MDC/SDC (or whatever system you want to use. HP, Wound Levels, you name it). If you're an unarmored human (or other soft creature) and get hit by a MD weapon, it does 3X the normal damage (in most Wound Level systems this will probably cause at least a moderate wound). Many MD weapons will still do enough to turn the target into a pile of bloody squish, but at least this way you're not toast after a single hit with a vibro-blade or laser pistol. Probably.
*Damage-All Hits Are The Same: Ugh. No. Granted, most shooters are taught to shoot center of mass. But that doesn't necessarily mean all bullets hit center of mass. And a hit to an extremity shouldn't merely shave 6 SDC/HP off the target. Make it MEAN something. You know, like, maybe they don't run so well, or maybe they can't target you quite so well with that 20+ pound belt-fed machinegun they're toting? A great hit with a sword shouldn't do just 2x normal damage, especially if the player said "I'm going to cut his arm off at the elbow".
*Energy weapons, especially lasers, dump their energy real quick when they hit something. Make cover actually MEAN something again.
*Railguns penetrate cover, barriers, armor, etc, better than energy weapons. The way the Palladium system currently is, the only reason to use a railgun is if you want the drama of potentially running out of ammo in the middle of a firefight. They are heavy, loud, use a potentially dangerous power source, and have a finite ammo source, but at least the damage they deal sucks! :D
*Automatic weapons fire (ESPECIALLY railguns): The burst rules are horrible. I've fired a decent amount of full auto in my life, with everything from 9mm and .45 ACP subguns to belt-fed, tripod-mounted machineguns. You honestly going to tell me that a 200 round belt from an M249 will hit with just as many rounds as a 100 round belt from an M240, regardless of range, regardless of how each is mounted (vehicle or tripod mount vs firing it like a rifle), AND it will take 15 seconds to fire the belt? Both of these weapons have a cyclic rate of fire of almost 20 rounds per second, if you don't mind burning the barrel to nothing and hitting a lot of sky. Not to mention that an 8 year old will hit with the same amount of rounds from his burst as a guy I knew who actually could pick up the M240 and fire it like a rifle, from his shoulder, if both combatants have AK's?
*Damage causes no effects until death/machine shutdown: *headdesk**headdesk**headdesk* No. Just no. At the very least, there should be a penalty like Shadowrun has (prior to 4th Edition, anyway...I haven't looked at 4th or 5th much) to any actions after you're wounded.
As for vehicles, sure, lasers and plasma cannons should melt some of the armor off, railguns chew it up, etc. I can dig that.
But what about a shot that does, say, 50% of the vehicle's damage capacity? Shouldn't that also penetrate and smash radios, hit passengers/crew, maybe even have a chance of cooking off ammo, fuel (in a liquid fuel vehicle), or *gasp* hitting the reactor of a nuclear powered vehicle?
This is one reason I like the various editions of Twilight: 2000. I'm sure there are other games that have the same kind of thing, where vehicles have X armor and a shot that does damage > X can do all kinds of interesting things.
*Dodge: No, no, no, no, no. In hand to hand combat, OK, I'll buy it. Against energy weapons or even chemical-based slug throwers? Nope. Not even a juicer or crazy is going to dodge a laser blast. The shooter pulls the trigger, the target is hit. All the potential victim can do is make himself harder to hit, by running perpendicular to the shooter's aim, by dropping to the ground, by ducking behind a handy rock, log, whatever. If the shooter overcomes all that and scores a hit, well, you're hit. Want to not get hit? Declare that you're evading BEFORE you're attacked (and that is your action, evading), roll, add whatever to the target number of anyone trying to hit you. I think 1st edition Star Wars did that, but it's been a lot of years since I played it, so I don't remember. There have to have been other systems that did it the same way, I just can't think of any immediately.
Yes, most of my changes add complexity. Sue me. I have nothing against a certain level of complexity if it means more realism (at least, as far as 'realism' goes in the case of these games).
I used to really like Palladium games. I still like the ideas they come up with, just wish they'd use a better system.
If I can ever find a group, AND they're willing to experiment, I've been kicking around the idea of using the Rifts setting with a blend of the mechanics from Twilight: 2013 and Shadowrun.
Its true. All of Palladium's games are made for 14 year olds and your inner-14-year-old.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;881989What it says on the tin. This might take awhile and you might get dirty so don't wear any nice clothes. Shut the garage door and let the wife and kids know you are not to be disturbed for the day. Beer might help.
The hard part: Keep it as backwards-compatible as possible so characters and books from previous editions don't become compost.
Aw, Bullwinkle, that trick NEVER works!
JG
Quote from: CRKrueger;883733You were 14 in '94?
Oh Mitra, have mercy on the old and decrepit. :D
Indeed I was. Were it not for Rifts and the D&D Rules Cyclopedia I might be in the White Wolf forums right now. ;)
Quote from: The Butcher;883873Indeed I was. Were it not for Rifts and the D&D Rules Cyclopedia I might be in the White Wolf forums right now. ;)
If the White Wolf audience was the same ones from the 90's I'd be right there with ya. ;)
Quote from: merc;883748*Dodge: No, no, no, no, no. In hand to hand combat, OK, I'll buy it. Against energy weapons or even chemical-based slug throwers? Nope. Not even a juicer or crazy is going to dodge a laser blast. The shooter pulls the trigger, the target is hit. All the potential victim can do is make himself harder to hit, by running perpendicular to the shooter's aim, by dropping to the ground, by ducking behind a handy rock, log, whatever. If the shooter overcomes all that and scores a hit, well, you're hit. Want to not get hit? Declare that you're evading BEFORE you're attacked (and that is your action, evading), roll, add whatever to the target number of anyone trying to hit you. I think 1st edition Star Wars did that, but it's been a lot of years since I played it, so I don't remember. There have to have been other systems that did it the same way, I just can't think of any immediately.
I agree with almost everything you say, but there's another way to look at Dodge.
A guy I played with the 80's was a Marine and he demonstrated the Palladium dodge like this:
Using a broomstick as a rubber-band rifle, he swept the muzzle the table's way. Of course, people moved out of the way. You're not dodging the bullet, you're trying to get out of way of the line of fire. You're moving where the muzzle is not pointing.
He did it again at maybe 3/4 speed. It was easier to dodge. That's a trained warrior riding the effects of adrenaline, the "everything in slow motion" effect.
He did it one last time at maybe 1/5 speed. Extremely easy to dodge. That's a Juicer or Crazy or even Cyberknight with altered levels of perception.
Lots of stuff I don't like about the system, Juicer dodge makes sense to me.
Quote from: James Gillen;883763Aw, Bullwinkle, that trick NEVER works!
JG
Why?
Personally, my SDC/HP changes (which a lot of other people here seem to have come up on their own as well) doesn't break most of the other 'editions' of Palladium's system.
Some of the other skill changes don't change the system much either.
Quote from: CRKrueger;883886I agree with almost everything you say, but there's another way to look at Dodge.
A guy I played with the 80's was a Marine and he demonstrated the Palladium dodge like this:
Using a broomstick as a rubber-band rifle, he swept the muzzle the table's way. Of course, people moved out of the way. You're not dodging the bullet, you're trying to get out of way of the line of fire. You're moving where the muzzle is not pointing.
He did it again at maybe 3/4 speed. It was easier to dodge. That's a trained warrior riding the effects of adrenaline, the "everything in slow motion" effect.
He did it one last time at maybe 1/5 speed. Extremely easy to dodge. That's a Juicer or Crazy or even Cyberknight with altered levels of perception.
Lots of stuff I don't like about the system, Juicer dodge makes sense to me.
IF, and that's a major *IF*, the shooter is in the same room with the juicer, I could maybe see it. In that instance, damn near anyone in the room, augmented or not, could attempt to dodge. And they all probably should.
Except they're not really dodging, individually, because until he stops and points at someone, they don't know who he's going to shoot, so chances are EVERYONE is going to duck behind something (someone) that will at least block the shooter's line of sight, making them harder to hit.
And if he's already pointing, and the intended victim knows damn well who's going to get shot, the only indication they'll have that an attack is coming is if they're watching the shooter's trigger finger. Not the easiest thing to do, when the weapon is pointed at you instead of safely somewhere else.
But Palladium allows a dodge against attacks from energy weapons/firearms/whatever that are hundreds of meters from the intended target.
This is just one of many glaring problems with their system. The advantage of the system is, it's pretty easy to learn and understand. The (chief) disadvantage is, it's pretty damn unrealistic. Maybe if you want to play some comic book fun roleplaying. But if that's the case, aren't there systems out there that are better suited to that? I was never one for super hero anything, so I never got in to the super hero games.
Oh, one more thing to fix about Palladium: their stupid alignments. I'm not a fan of alignment anyway, but if you're going to do it, there are much better ways. I like the way D&D/Pathfinder do it, with good/evil and law/chaos (and the "I Don't Care Party", neutral). I'm sure there is someone who does it even better but there are plenty of systems I've never experienced so I can't name one.
Quote from: CRKrueger;883884If the White Wolf audience was the same ones from the 90's I'd be right there with ya. ;)
The audience's changed? How so?
Quote from: merc;883960Oh, one more thing to fix about Palladium: their stupid alignments. I'm not a fan of alignment anyway, but if you're going to do it, there are much better ways. I like the way D&D/Pathfinder do it, with good/evil and law/chaos (and the "I Don't Care Party", neutral). I'm sure there is someone who does it even better but there are plenty of systems I've never experienced so I can't name one.
Why do you want to use the D&D 3.X/Pathfinder's alignments system?
Quote from: Omega;882110Easy. Roll things back to pre Rifts. Use Beyond the Supernatural, TMNT or Palladium Fantasy.
This is the best answer. Rifts and Rifts game logic borked some of the rather fun games.
Quote from: DarcyDettmann;884007Why do you want to use the D&D 3.X/Pathfinder's alignments system?
Because that's the only other one that springs to mind right away, mostly. haha
Of the games I've played, only D&D/Pathfinder and anything Palladium make use of alignments. Or at least the only ones I remember, anyway. So those are the only alignment systems I know well.
Ok, so what do we have for fixes so far? I'll echo the supremely wise minds that say earlier editions should be used as a base :)
If I were cleaning up an earlier edition, such as the magnum opus that is the Palladium Role Playing Game 1st edition revised!- the skill system could use a good cleaning. There's stuff that can be consolidated and folded into other skills
Honestly I think that Palladium is best served with a "loose" rules framework that a "tight" rule frame work. There were things in the PRPG1R where GM ruling was paramount. Going by memory here and I've been drinking some wine tonight, so forgive me- the men at arms OCC had the parry ability listed as "as many times as they are reasonably aware of" or some such. Reading their earlier works, there's a definite vibe of "don't let the rules get in your way" going on. Hell, the only inflexible rule in the whole game is "no true neutrals".
I'd get rid of the OCC bloat. Seriously, Rifts has so many character classes distinguished only by their gear it was pathetic (at least as I recall; I no longer have most f the RPG library). Not throw out OCCs entirely, but define them more loosely, so you don't need a new OCC for every single kind of power armour trooper. "Oops, you're not [this kind], because [this kind] use a plasma carbine, but you use a laser rifle, which makes you [that kind]." Exaggerated, I know, but not hugely.
Quote from: Whitewings;884112I'd get rid of the OCC bloat. Seriously, Rifts has so many character classes distinguished only by their gear it was pathetic (at least as I recall; I no longer have most f the RPG library). Not throw out OCCs entirely, but define them more loosely, so you don't need a new OCC for every single kind of power armour trooper. "Oops, you're not [this kind], because [this kind] use a plasma carbine, but you use a laser rifle, which makes you [that kind]." Exaggerated, I know, but not hugely.
Not by much, no.
Of course other games, even D20/Pathfinder, have things like templates and archetypes that you can use to modify a core concept to create what are essentially variations on the same theme. I don't think Palladium is that adaptable.
JG
Quote from: Whitewings;884112I'd get rid of the OCC bloat. Seriously, Rifts has so many character classes distinguished only by their gear it was pathetic (at least as I recall; I no longer have most f the RPG library). Not throw out OCCs entirely, but define them more loosely, so you don't need a new OCC for every single kind of power armour trooper. "Oops, you're not [this kind], because [this kind] use a plasma carbine, but you use a laser rifle, which makes you [that kind]." Exaggerated, I know, but not hugely.
This is really just an issue for RIFTS. None of the other lines have the glut of O.C.C./P.C.C./R.C.C. choices that the RIFTS supplements bring to the table.
Looking at Beyond the Supernatural, Ninjas & Superspies, even Heroes Unlimited and Splicers, there aren't that many. Perhaps more than needed, I can certainly see places where one so inclined could trim the fat (Heroes Unlimited Hardware O.C.C.s spring to mind) but it really is RIFTS that has the excess.
So it is less a problem with the Megaversal system so much as it is with how RIFTS builds upon said system.
Quote from: Malleustein;884224This is really just an issue for RIFTS. None of the other lines have the glut of O.C.C./P.C.C./R.C.C. choices that the RIFTS supplements bring to the table.
Looking at Beyond the Supernatural, Ninjas & Superspies, even Heroes Unlimited and Splicers, there aren't that many. Perhaps more than needed, I can certainly see places where one so inclined could trim the fat (Heroes Unlimited Hardware O.C.C.s spring to mind) but it really is RIFTS that has the excess.
So it is less a problem with the Megaversal system so much as it is with how RIFTS builds upon said system.
I think it's more that they cater to people who love to have classes for every imagined niche. Most of which are also D&D players. Personally, I don't mind all the OCCs simply because most can be ignored.
I'm more interested in the base mechanics. And the biggest two bugbears I have are the stat system, in which nothing before 16-17 is actually worth anything because there's no bonus or penalties until then, for a lot of the original games. And the SDC bloat, that lends to ungodly long combat between two random doods having a firefight on the street with .44 Magnums (From a BTS supplement that does 5d6 per shot. And still won't kill within 30 seconds.)
I only ever use Ninjas & Superspies and some Mystic China so as far as I'm concerned nothing needs to be "fixed." Works just fine for my kung fu movie fun.
Quote from: Matt;884437I only ever use Ninjas & Superspies and some Mystic China so as far as I'm concerned nothing needs to be "fixed." Works just fine for my kung fu movie fun.
...You need to watch better Kung Fu movies...
Quote from: Christopher Brady;884438...You need to watch better Kung Fu movies...
Yeah, given what I've seen of things you're in favor of I think your taste is dubious at best.
Quote from: Matt;884441Yeah, given what I've seen of things you're in favor of I think your taste is dubious at best.
If you think Ninja's and Superspies and Mystic China is the ultimate for Kung Fu movie game, you seriously need to watch more modern films. Sonny Chiba's Streetfighter is nice, but there are more out there.
It has nothing to do with how unrealistic the history or how inaccurate the actual martial arts are, which are treated as 'fact', not to mention that they chopped up several styles and threw away the parent martial style.
The system itself doesn't really work for some of the abilities shown in some movies.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;884438...You need to watch better Kung Fu movies...
Palladium needs a skill called Speaking Out of Sync.
JG
I can't claim particular familiarity with Hong Kong martial arts movies, but I think N&SS does a nice job of emulating corny Eric Van Lustbader ninja novels and especially low-budget American martial arts movies of the 80s and 90s, including the super cheesy American Ninja franchise and Jean-Claude van Damme's opus. And maybe even early fighting video games like Street Fighter 1 and 2.
Hell, I even have a Bloodsport/Street Fighter adventure/mini-campaign lined up.
It's as close as it gets to a The Expendables RPG.
Quote from: The Butcher;884554I can't claim particular familiarity with Hong Kong martial arts movies, but I think N&SS does a nice job of emulating corny Eric Van Lustbader ninja novels and especially low-budget 1990s American martial arts movies of the 80s and 90s, including the super cheese American Ninja franchise and Jean-Claude van Damme's opus. And maybe even early fighting video games like Street Fighter 1 and 2.
Hell, I even have a Bloodsport/Street Fighter adventure/mini-campaign lined up.
It's as close as it gets to a The Expendables RPG.
I would agree with it, except for one small detail: Most action films (even those of the 80's) use what we would call Mook Rules. Low 'level' gumbies that go down in a hit or two, and help make the hero(es) look cool. Steven Seagal films are notorious for one hit wonders that go down hard.
The issue with even NS&S (which by the way was my favourite book series, competing with TMNT for top spot for years, from Palladium Books) is, once again, the amount of hits anything takes to go down. If you think being able to soak a full clip of .44 Magnum rounds for everyone (Which PB categorized as a 4D6 weapon after that BTS source book) is OK, then alright, you won't have an issue. But for ME, I need squishier goons at the very least.
Even in Lustbader's novels, regular people went down hard and fast to the various killers and ninja that popped up.
Here's what I know...
When I play Palladium's RPGs, I consistently have lots of fun while I handwaive past the rules. FOR ME, the fun overshadows the rules by a huge margin.
Ninjas & Superspies is a trainwreck of a game on paper, but hot damn that game is so much freaking fun in actual play.
If PB could keep the fun energy and lose the wonky crap, I believe they would see a powerful resurgence.
I would keep the O.C.C. bloat, just maybe consolidate a few of the really redundant ones like body fixer and cyber-doc.
To balance the classes, I would use some variation of BIO-E from TMNT/After the Bomb. More powerful classes like glitter-boys would get very little BIO-E equivalent while weaker classes like rogue-scholars and vagabonds would get a lot of it.
Quote from: Cave Bear;885009To balance the classes...
This is a pointless effort. If your issue with the Palladium megaversal rules is a lack of "balance", then you would be better served taking whatever elements you like from RIFTS and transplanting them into a system of your liking.
RIFTS isn't balanced. It isn't meant to be and it never was.
Too many people try to fix Rifts with "balancing" the character classes. They try, fail, and blame Palladium for having a sucky system.
There is no reason to do this.
Palladium balances through the role play aspect of the game. Which also happens to be why the experience point system rewards role playing, instead of killing stuff and taking treasure.
Man, I could go way further into the issue of "balance," and Palladium, but I just got home from an MC Chris show and I'm beat.
I too feel the "imbalance" in Rifts is more feature than bug.
This is where I disagree, there IS balance in Rifts.
There are tiers of classes.
Top Tiers are things like Cyber-Knights (upgraded, not core book), baby Dragons, Glitterboys, the various mystical warrior O/RCCs. Psychics.
Mid-Tier is things like the heavy combat classes without magic, some of the dedicated caster classes. Those play well together.
The Low-Tier is where the City-Rat and Vagabond go, among several others, and bring a more desperate edge to the game.
The imbalance comes when people try to mix and match those classes.
Quote from: The Butcher;885362I too feel the "imbalance" in Rifts is more feature than bug.
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=28867
QuoteIn reviewing the OCCs, two points come to my mind. First, there is absolutely no attempt to make the characters balanced with each other. To some extent this is intentional on the author's part. He says, "Of course there has to be game balance, but complete equality for all characters, never. Every character in Rifts is deliberately designed to have unique abilities, strengths and weaknesses." Problem is that there seems to be a confusion of absolute equality with game balance, or more precisely a confusion as to how game balance works.
For instance the design notes refer to a setting rivalry between the Crazies and the Juicers, two latter-day variations on the perennial super-soldier project. The Juicers are given a combination of nanotech and injected chemical boosts to make them supreme killing machines, at the price of suffering complete physical burnout and death before age 30. Whereas Crazies shave their heads and get metal cybernetic implants fixed in their skulls, causing them to look like Lady Gaga at the Grammy Awards . These implants tap bio-feedback mechanisms that increase the subjects' physical and psionic abilities, at the cost of making them more and more insane as they gain experience. Again, much like Lady Gaga.
Which of these drawbacks is a more crippling "game balancer"? One would think the Juicer's reduced lifespan, except considering that the GM can control the span of game time between adventures and thus drag out a Juicer PC's date of reckoning, whereas a Crazy's insanity progresses as he gains levels, which is a factor not necessarily related to time but is more relevant to ongoing game play. It's sort of like how AD&D "balanced" vanilla Humans with the good-at-everything Elves by only allowing Elves to go up so many levels (which makes no sense considering their immortality) and allowed Humans to achieve any class and level, limited only by their mortality- when the length of most campaigns would barely allow a Human PC to become middle-aged, let alone elderly.
In other words, "game balance" is not necessarily a factor of what's in the rules, because what's printed in the rules doesn't always correspond to how the game turns out, and in the absence of GM-enforced campaign limits (which something like RIFTS seems intended to dispense with) you tend to have PC groups leaning towards the most powerful or "game the system" concepts. If for instance you converted the RIFTS setting to HERO System- which I'm not actually recommending, by the way- it'd be giving everyone a chance to play the 100 pt. Normal characters with a few Skill Packages for post-apocalypse survival AND the superhero-level Dragon Hatchlings and full-conversion Combat Cyborgs. Easy choice for most people. I mean, yes, at one point the Justice League comic had Dr. Fate in the same team as the Ted Kord Blue Beetle, but that didn't last long and that doesn't mean it would work in an RPG.
I thought Buffy RPG did a great job addressing how to have Bad Asses and Weenies in the same party and keep both players happy.
Rifts should formalize the PC tiers and create some method for PCs of different tiers to work well together.
Of course, converting Rifts to Unisystem/Buffy won't be too hard.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;885363The magic happens when people try to mix and match those classes.
FIFY ;)
I think that a lot of the freaking out over imbalance comes from the notion that we have to use every OCC or RCC in the book. In fact, you make a much better RIFTS campaign when you pick and choose the classes you want to be on offer for the players.
Mind you, even that isn't strictly necessary as such. In some of my most memorable RIFTS campaigns, where we had dragon hatchlings and glitter boy pilots, two of the most memorable and successful characters by far were a Rogue Scholar and a Vagabond whose player intentionally took mainly domestic skills.
Quote from: RPGPundit;886089I think that a lot of the freaking out over imbalance comes from the notion that we have to use every OCC or RCC in the book. In fact, you make a much better RIFTS campaign when you pick and choose the classes you want to be on offer for the players.
This, dammit. Curate ahead of time for the campaign experience you want.
QuoteMind you, even that isn't strictly necessary as such. In some of my most memorable RIFTS campaigns, where we had dragon hatchlings and glitter boy pilots, two of the most memorable and successful characters by far were a Rogue Scholar and a Vagabond whose player intentionally took mainly domestic skills.
And when the players are willing to play ball like this, wonderful things happen.
If it matters to you and your group, only pick O/R/P.C.C.s of similar power level for the campaign. It really is that simple and much easier than any attempt to fix that aspect of the Palladium Megaversal rules system would ever be.
The catalogue of character classes isn't a mistake or an accident. They are options. Options to be used or ignored by your group. There is no sensible way to bring the City Rat up to the power level of a Dragon Hatchling, and the end result would be a joke!
I have this dream of applying OD&D's logic to the Palladium system/Rifts. Imagine adopting the combat system whole cloth, all the damage stuff, all the bonusses and shit, but completely forgoing the skill system. The class you choose can do what it assumedly can--done.
I always loved how the monsters in OD&D don't need special damage types or resistances, because the minor descriptions and genre tropes they were built on came with certain assumptions. Here's a werewolf, no shit you need a silver weapon to fight it. Here's the Fighting-Man, he knows battle stuff. Here's the Mad Scientist, he knows all about technology and science.
Granted, it would need some work to tear it all out of the Megaversal System, but I think it could be done without much harm. It also would still feed into the roleplaying balance Rifts is big on. A Glitter Boy is an awesome combatant, but try entering Chi-Town locked and loaded. While he is arguing over where to store his combat suit with the local authorities, the Vagabond is already gathering valuable information in all the shady places.
Quote from: RPGPundit;886089I think that a lot of the freaking out over imbalance comes from the notion that we have to use every OCC or RCC in the book. In fact, you make a much better RIFTS campaign when you pick and choose the classes you want to be on offer for the players.
Mind you, even that isn't strictly necessary as such. In some of my most memorable RIFTS campaigns, where we had dragon hatchlings and glitter boy pilots, two of the most memorable and successful characters by far were a Rogue Scholar and a Vagabond whose player intentionally took mainly domestic skills.
It took me some time to realize what it was about this comment that struck me as off. The first paragraph makes sense, in general. There is an insane power creep that happens across the Rifts supplements. The group should establish the style of game they want to play then base their choices around that established game scope. However, this requires a fair amount of analysis from the people involved. Some OCCs and RCCs may sound thematically appropriate but turn out to be far outside the desired power level. While this may not be a difficult process it still means extra work as not all of the classes are plug and play. Worse, due to the level of minutia within the Palladium engine it's not difficult to miss a single word, or sentence that may drastically alter a character's power level.
That said, both the first and second parts of the post require people at the game table to compensate for the lack of play balance. Either before or during game play. Some groups may have players that can compensate for the potential levels of power disparity in a completely open game. However, this puts additional work on the GM to create challenges that will engage everyone in some way. This feels like the Ikea of gaming, only instead of having the blueprints for a table and the parts you have the parts of a table, chair, bed and book case, instructions on how to use a use a hex wrench and a note telling you that if you try really hard you can make some really cool stuff that all goes together.
Quote from: Certified;886300This feels like the Ikea of gaming, only instead of having the blueprints for a table and the parts you have the parts of a table, chair, bed and book case, instructions on how to use a use a hex wrench and a note telling you that if you try really hard you can make some really cool stuff that all goes together.
Shouldn't a good adventure challenge you in most, if not all kinds of ways? You're not supposed to balance things out for the sake of certain characters of course, but the adventure should provide a multitude of ways to go about things. This to me is the essence of an open adventure. An adventure, where
how you do things actually matters.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;886301Shouldn't a good adventure challenge you in most, if not all kinds of ways? You're not supposed to balance things out for the sake of certain characters of course, but the adventure should provide a multitude of ways to go about things. This to me is the essence of an open adventure. An adventure, where how you do things actually matters.
The power disparity is not Batman and Superman, this is Superman and the guy who gets saved from falling rubble. Sure you can have fun being completely outclassed and unable to meaningfully impact the world around you compared to other characters. However, this creates added work for the GM and players to try and engineer the fun into the game.
Quote from: Malleustein;886291If it matters to you and your group, only pick O/R/P.C.C.s of similar power level for the campaign. It really is that simple and much easier than any attempt to fix that aspect of the Palladium Megaversal rules system would ever be.
The catalogue of character classes isn't a mistake or an accident. They are options. Options to be used or ignored by your group. There is no sensible way to bring the City Rat up to the power level of a Dragon Hatchling, and the end result would be a joke!
Which may be why, in my group's games, no one played City Rats. People would often play Mages or Psionics if they filled a role, even if they weren't as powerful as the Dragon Hatchlings/Gromeks/Demigods made by other PCs. But "relatively normal guy" not only doesn't have a good lifespan in RIFTS, it doesn't bring much to the table.
jg
Quote from: James Gillen;886801But "relatively normal guy" not only doesn't have a good lifespan in RIFTS, it doesn't bring much to the table.
jg
Entirely depends on the campaign. I first played in and usually run a RIFTS Triax/NGR game, which despite the high technology on offer still features fairly normal humans or low-power D-bees. None of our groups felt underpowered in the setting.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;886296I have this dream of applying OD&D's logic to the Palladium system/Rifts. Imagine adopting the combat system whole cloth, all the damage stuff, all the bonusses and shit, but completely forgoing the skill system. The class you choose can do what it assumedly can--done.
I always loved how the monsters in OD&D don't need special damage types or resistances, because the minor descriptions and genre tropes they were built on came with certain assumptions. Here's a werewolf, no shit you need a silver weapon to fight it. Here's the Fighting-Man, he knows battle stuff. Here's the Mad Scientist, he knows all about technology and science.
Granted, it would need some work to tear it all out of the Megaversal System, but I think it could be done without much harm. It also would still feed into the roleplaying balance Rifts is big on. A Glitter Boy is an awesome combatant, but try entering Chi-Town locked and loaded. While he is arguing over where to store his combat suit with the local authorities, the Vagabond is already gathering valuable information in all the shady places.
Except Palladium has a much better combat system that D&D. Much more exciting with its opportunities for defenders to actually defend.
OD&D logic means what exactly? Logic?
Quote from: Matt;887030OD&D logic means what exactly?
"Here is a combat system for resolving battles. The rest is common sense, player ingenuity, and referee discretion. Now play the goddamn game and stop expecting us to hold your hand and have to put into writing that fighters can ride horses and that poison won't affect a fucking skeleton. "
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;887032"Here is a combat system for resolving battles. The rest is common sense, player ingenuity, and referee discretion. Now play the goddamn game and stop expecting us to hold your hand and have to put into writing that fighters can ride horses and that poison won't affect a fucking skeleton. "
Extra points for making me laugh out loud. I do hate that shit in so many games with 200-entry skill lists where they feel the need to separate acrobatics, gymnastics, tumbling, break fall, and balancing into separate skills and make you cherry pick your skills to be halfway competent at what is supposed to be your profession. God forbid you overlook one...very embarrassing to have a thief who forgot to buy stealth because you thought it was the same as sneaking.
Quote from: Matt;887030Except Palladium has a much better combat system that D&D. Much more exciting with its opportunities for defenders to actually defend.
I
said that it should keep the combat system. After all, it's supposed to remain recognisably Palladium. If it is better than OD&D though is open to debate. I see it as the evolution of a D&D homebrew that it is. Anyway, I like it and see it essential to the Megaversal brand of rules. The BRP-style skills are serviceable, but unnecessary.
Quote"Here is a combat system for resolving battles. The rest is common sense, player ingenuity, and referee discretion. Now play the goddamn game and stop expecting us to hold your hand and have to put into writing that fighters can ride horses and that poison won't affect a fucking skeleton. "
Bingo.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;886296I have this dream of applying OD&D's logic to the Palladium system/Rifts. Imagine adopting the combat system whole cloth, all the damage stuff, all the bonusses and shit, but completely forgoing the skill system. The class you choose can do what it assumedly can--done.
You know what? You're probably right.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;886296It also would still feed into the roleplaying balance Rifts is big on. A Glitter Boy is an awesome combatant, but try entering Chi-Town locked and loaded. While he is arguing over where to store his combat suit with the local authorities, the Vagabond is already gathering valuable information in all the shady places.
☝ This guy. This guy
gets it.
Quote from: The Butcher;887128You know what? You're probably right.
The big advantage of Megaversal's epic portfolio of classes is that they are so specific, that the class name alone becomes a perfect indicator of the character's capabilities in a skill system-deprived hack of the rules.
Just look at these mofos:
- Layline Walker
- Coalition Technical Officer
- Nazca Line Maker
- NGR Robot Combat Pilot
- Coalition Psycho-Stalker
et al.
Quote from: Matt;887043Extra points for making me laugh out loud. I do hate that shit in so many games with 200-entry skill lists where they feel the need to separate acrobatics, gymnastics, tumbling, break fall, and balancing into separate skills and make you cherry pick your skills to be halfway competent at what is supposed to be your profession. God forbid you overlook one...very embarrassing to have a thief who forgot to buy stealth because you thought it was the same as sneaking.
Well, that's one of the things I'd change about Palladium. :D
JG