You are ignoring the fact that a LARGE percentage of gamers will ONLY play whatever the current edition of D&D happens to be, good or bad.

Quote from: danbuter;815073You are ignoring the fact that a LARGE percentage of gamers will ONLY play whatever the current edition of D&D happens to be, good or bad.

Unfortunately so very very true.

And some will magically be unable to play a game the second it goes out of print.
"Golly gee I sure miss Spelljammer... I have all this stuff I cant play anymore because the game went OOP. I sure hope some nice publisher people makes me a new Spelljammer so I can play again."
(Note: It is a valid excuse if you are the sort that only plays modules and nothing else.)

Quote from: dbm;815042Once you have hooked them in with some Space Marines vaporising some Orks, only then do you explain army creation and the need/desire to paint everything yourself...

Except that there are a good number of people, like me, who got into the game in the other direction... seeing the bare miniatures and wanting to collect/build/paint them... and only later discovered the game, "Hey! You mean I can use my cool models to play games?!!!"
There are plenty of folks who buy and pain miniatures and don't game at all.

Similiarly RPG character creation could be emphasized more as a fun solo game unto itself... not necessarily in a min/max way but perhaps more literary/crafty. A lot of kids I know already sit around and do something similar w/o rules but I'd bet there'd be interest if you told them, "Here's a game where you make up a fun characters that you can draw or write stories about... Oh, and if you're interested, those characters you make can be used in a bigger game that lets take them on adventures with the characters your friends make up."

Even though they're not my taste... games like Fate and Numenera seem a bit more fun in their character creation by not starting straight with math and numbers but with words and creativity.

Quote from: danbuter;815073You are ignoring the fact that a LARGE percentage of gamers will ONLY play whatever the current edition of D&D happens to be, good or bad.

Assuming that you're right, I think the Pathfinder/4th ed branch put a wedge right down the fanbase. And that fracture has brought up a question that WOTC really didn't want asked in the first place. "What is D&D?"

Quote from: Ratman_tf;815098Assuming that you're right, I think the Pathfinder/4th ed branch put a wedge right down the fanbase. And that fracture has brought up a question that WOTC really didn't want asked in the first place. "What is D&D?"

Pathfinder showed the edition treadmill as the failure that it has allways been. Players flocked to the publisher that was still supporting 3e rather than play the five year plan again.

D&D was the edition players liked. Be it O, A, 2, or whatever. And when it is abandoned some are not going to jump for the next and do it all over again if the next edition is too much of a change. Gygax himself pointed that one out.

If OGL hadn't existed, there'd be no Pathfinder and people probably would have gone with 4e, even if they weren't happy with it. Sales would still have dipped, but not as severely.

If WotC had kept OGL, there'd be no Pathfinder and people would have experimented with variations of 4e that appealed to them more. Sales might have still dipped, but, IMO, not as severely as the other cases.

WotC pretty much went with the worst possible path. And thrown in jerking around 3pp before 4e and pulling all pdf sales to REALLY piss people off.


4e-era whining about Pathfinder made me so so happy. Fuckers.

Quote from: Will;8151024e-era whining about Pathfinder made me so so happy. Fuckers.

You all make me so very very glad I skipped totally 4e.

Thing is, there were some neat things about 4e. Some of it sounded kinda cool.

But WotC set everything on fire so thoroughly that I couldn't bring myself to explore it in any depth.

Quote from: Ravenswing;814853It's not only completely untrue, it's never been true.

Yes and no.
 

Quote from: Ravenswing;814853
I've never, in my entire GMing career (and my campaign's up over 175 players over 37 years, counting only fantasy), had so much as a single recruit from a gaming store.  My players have come from word of mouth, from collegiate gaming clubs, from collegiate SF clubs, from friends, from friends-of-friends, and in recent years from online forums and RPG meet-up sites.  I think I've bought two items from brick-and-mortar gaming stores in the last dozen years; everything else I've picked up has been from online.

And my experience living a rural area of Northwest Pennsylvania is dissimilar. I been gaming since 1978 and game stores have been a major part of connecting to the local gaming community. I do agreed with you that historically gaming was not dependent on the existence of game stores. But the various stores played a major role in popularizing and as a hub for the local social network. So while it was nil or 0% for you, it was about 50/50 for me.

Today the internet change everything and in the last decade the people I know who game regularly has greatly expanded their range of contacts both locally, nationwide, and in some cases internationally thank to the internet.

Also the rise of Magic the Gathering, Heroclix and other collectible games played in tournament has changed things radically from the late 70s and 80s.

In the 90s around here, various LARPS sprung up (mostly vampire, and fantasy boffer like NERO). Creating what was in essence a mini con every month for people interested in gaming and roleplaying.

Also a set of conventions appeared , scattered around Cleveland, Akron, Erie, and Pittsburgh.

In general my observation is that tabletop roleplaying declined from its 80s heights and then stabilized as gaming in general diversified. Tabletop roleplaying continually loses and gains players from other most popular games.

Finally organized activity of all stripes probably only involves at best a third of the gamers out there. I run into enough isolated groups to realize that the people who appear at cons, tournaments, games stores, and larps, is just the tip of a large ice berg.

That many of these isolated group are highly conservative in their choice of games. Changing games only once in a blue moon. The big changes for many of these groups that I encountered were Magic in the 90s and euro games in the 2000s.

Quote from: Will;815104Thing is, there were some neat things about 4e. Some of it sounded kinda cool.

But WotC set everything on fire so thoroughly that I couldn't bring myself to explore it in any depth.

I still use many 4e concepts in my 5e campaign, and would readily port them into 3e to 1e if the opportunity arose.

The combat mechanics were obviously the best part, and totally worth stealing in moderation. Some of the monster tactics were inspired, and the individual class powers can be adapted into techniques that the players can learn from in-game martial masters.

That said, there's a reason I don't play it anymore, and that reason is four-hour combat encounters with fifteen separate conditions to track. :banghead:

Quote from: Will;815102If OGL hadn't existed, there'd be no Pathfinder and people probably would have gone with 4e, even if they weren't happy with it. Sales would still have dipped, but not as severely.

I think you are grossly underestimating the amount of dislike people had for 4E.

Quote from: Opaopajr;815060Haven't you all traveled the club circuits in youth?

What are club circuits?

Quote from: Opaopajr;815060Maybe it is hard for Americans because we really are starved for public places. We got no real pub or plaza culture, unless you call the malls of the 80s & 90s the same.

True. The lack of pub, cafe and plaza culture is an issue.

Quote from: jeff37923;815072I truly believe that tabletop RPGs need more advocates to show interested but inexperienced Players the fun and enjoyment that can be found in our shared favorite hobby.

Absolutely!!!

Quote from: Spinachcat;815120What are club circuits?

A merry-go-round of visits to various poorly lit establishments where young people shake, shimmy, and do that twerking thing to that loud noise that the kids call music these days. While they try to hook up and get lucky. Never done much of that myself as I'm not that fond of disco, but I seen it on the TV.

Quote from: Spinachcat;815120What are club circuits?

Oh, you know, the beautiful ones...

High on diesel and gasoline
psycho for drum machine
shaking their bits to the hits
drag acts drug acts suicide
in your dad's suits you hide
staining his name again
cracked up stacked up 22
psycho for sex and glue
lost in to bostik yeah
shaved heads rave heads
on the pill
got to much time to kill
get into bands and gangs.

sing the refrain with me if you know it, oh your wasted youth!

Quote from: dbm;815052... a store in every sizeable town with tables set up for skirmishes with both 40k and WHFB so people could walk in and try them out, with minions paid to be there and lead them through it...

I'll agree that Magic is fairly impenetrable to me, but the principle still holds. Maybe it's more of a 'win condition' thing? You can explain how to win in 40k or a CCG and play a small game to completion in a timely fashion. With an RPG winning is much more nebulous and is a journey, not a destination.

RPGs ought to be a lot easier; playing is in most ways pretty natural (spell casters are a little harder, but less experienced characters wouldn't have too many spells to worry about), and it's (usually) a cooperative game, which seems to me attractive to more potential players to try out. You need a referee, but no other minions, and it's not impossible to find a GM who doesn't actually need to be paid.

I think game stores don't see RPGers as choice customers; Magic and miniatures will attract players who will buy more stuff.

Quote from: Opaopajr;815060Well gaming at the FLGS is a low buy-in social thing with high aggregate of people with shared interests.

Libraries can be social, too. But usually you have to reserve a Quiet Room to game without disturbing other patrons, which then isolates.

A good potential space would be at schools; there was a local convention, not exclusively gaming, run in space at the local public university for several years, although it moved to a hotel eventually.