Quote from: Bren;815457I must protest suh. The original Traveller rules were great, but it was three booklets not one book.

I think he's referencing the Mongoose version, but you probably already knew that. The Traveller Book, now, while not 'original' was a damn fine single volume rulebook.

Quote from: K Peterson;815409Certainly the context is important. If you use Pathfinder as the embodiment of "Rules-Heavy", then 5e likely could be considered "Rules-Light" by comparison.

But, the labels themselves can be misleading and conjure up different expectations based on personal tastes. If someone throws out that term I immediately think of Rpgs like Prince Valiant or Over the Edge, or a load of random indie games. And as a result, it strains the context... but perhaps I'm just being an asshole.

You're not. I think bringing up "rules lite" in any discussion of D&D editions is a complete misnomer.

Quote from: Ronin;815453Your both wrong,

You're all wrong

Even has stats for Jesus!

Quote from: Will;815480

Even has stats for Jesus!

well, that takes me back.

Got mine from a mail order book club. Do those even exist anymore?

Quote from: Justin Alexander;815465As I continue reading through this thread, I see that this has come under some rather strenuous debate. Which I think is a meaningful commentary on how out-of-whack RPG players are in their perception of mechanical complexity.

For example, take the 100 page rulebook of solid mechanics with no fluff and show that to some board gamers. See how complex they assess your thesis-length rulebook to be.

What do you personally think is the maximum page number (solid rules) for an RPG that casual gamers won't balk at?

James Mal probably thought it was 64 for instance:

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/06/64-pages-of-fun.html

Quote from: TristramEvans;815471You're all wrong

I have one of the originals. It can probably stop small caliber rounds...

Quote from: Will;815480

Even has stats for Jesus!

God I despise that game.

But yeah, for all its pages and pages its rules lite because theres hardly anything there. Its mostly the writers being smug pricks at everyone elses expense.

"You have been playing RPGs WRONG!"

Long before anyone else.

Quote from: Bren;815457I must protest suh. The original Traveller rules were great, but it was three booklets not one book. So no, no you are wrong.

Water pistols at dawn then?

I will be there, super soakers at the ready!

Good day, suh!

Quote from: K Peterson;815466I think he's referencing the Mongoose version, but you probably already knew that. The Traveller Book, now, while not 'original' was a damn fine single volume rulebook.

You, suh, are a gamer of impeccable taste and distinction!

(And actually, it was the first image I could find.)

Quote from: Omega;815485God I despise that game.

But yeah, for all its pages and pages its rules lite because theres hardly anything there. Its mostly the writers being smug pricks at everyone elses expense.

"You have been playing RPGs WRONG!"

Long before anyone else.

Yeah, it's a completely unplayable mess.

It was clearly a bunch of gamers coming up with random cool ideas and just saying 'fuck it, let's make it a book.'

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;815482What do you personally think is the maximum page number (solid rules) for an RPG that casual gamers won't balk at?

Good question, but I think it ties into the general methodology I think that any RPG aiming at genuinely new players should have. (And this is heavily influenced by the Mentzer Basic Set.)

(1) 2 pages of rules. Basically one page for core mechanics and one page for combat. (I'll double that amount if you're using a large font and lots of pictures.)

(2) Then you should have a solo, choose-your-own-adventure scenario that's resolved using actual game mechanics.

(3) The rest of the player booklet is about character creation. (And that character creation should be based entirely around decisions which (a) feature a limited number of choices and (b) are comprehensible to a new player.

(4) The GM book opens with a simple location-crawl scenario with perhaps 10 locations. (The GM should able to literally pick the book up, read a half page explanation of how the scenario works, and then immediately start running the scenario.)

(5) Then the rest of the GM book has the full rule set for the game. 64 pages sounds like a good limit for this sort of thing.

(6) Toss in an adversary/monster booklet, too.

Quote from: Will;815492Yeah, it's a completely unplayable mess.

It was clearly a bunch of gamers coming up with random cool ideas and just saying 'fuck it, let's make it a book.'

Oh no. It is not unplayable. Theres a fairly clever, if derivative, system in there. Which makes the designers snide comments on how original they are as all the more pathetic. I kick the game brutally because of that condescending tone. Though the whole "If the players are co-operating too much then take over their characters and make them fight eachother." gag was one rule that irked. But made sense in a way with the aspects system they used.

The book was more a big vanity screed against all the fantasy writers and designers who ,you see , "got it wrong". And here they are to set you right. 4e long before 4e.

And back on topic. Fantasy Wargaming pretty much was a RPG without a brand name due to being set in the real world. Least till they started adding in the fantasy-lite stuff. And even that is all based on existing legends.

Kind of like TSRs D&D Rome book. And whatever others they did in that series. Heard of. Not yet seen.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;815482What do you personally think is the maximum page number (solid rules) for an RPG that casual gamers won't balk at?

I've had great luck with ZERO pages of rules needed to learn. Since 1975, I've played where new players get help creating a character (which takes 15 minutes or so in pre Powersw and Skills D&D) and can then play without knowing any rules by telling the GM (me) what to do and I either tell them the result of their action or what to roll to see if it happens (with warnings if their are dangers their character would be aware or but they are not). No need to know any rules to play just as well as someone who studying the rules for hours a day for years.

IMHO, rules mastery should not be needed or rewarded much with obvious character design or in play advantages if one wants to attract most casual players. Like a good board game, in a newbie-friendly RPG, newbies should be able to play (and play well) with a few minutes explanation and in play help their first few games. Needing to buy and study the rules to play well enough to enjoy the game (or worse, just to play acceptably with annoying other players) blocks most casual players in my experience. And most of the players in my games since 1975 have been newbies and few become the hardcore gamers that D&D seems to require in the post-Powers & Skills era, so I have quite a bit of experience with casual players to base this opinion on.

In my Microlite74 games, I give all new players a printed copy of the rules, but about 20-25% of the players never read them. The majority probably never open them except to pick spells, generate a new character or the like. This not not interfere with their ability to enjoy or "succeed" in play.

Wargame rules have tended to be denser by the page than rpgs, and not only with smaller type. Play does not have anywhere near the same scope, but what is covered is covered in exacting precision. There's more detail to master in some games than in others, but it's really only with a comprehensive "game system" such as Advanced Squad Leader that we begin to approach the volume of seldom-used rules and "stuff" (like the equipment, monsters and magic in D&D) typically demanded by rp gamers.

Tunnels & Trolls isn't much besides the spell and armament lists and GM advice. Combat is in some ways simpler than in D&D, but involves more computation. Even relative to OD&D, a lot is left for the ref to improvise. EPT and Holmes Basic D&D had some additional rules that I for one appreciated.

Risus is sort of like getting the combat and advancement tables from OD&D presented as a complete game. (It uses handfuls of dice, more like T&T or WEG Star Wars, but the analogy is in being so stripped down by deleting all context and delivering pure mathematical abstraction.)