Quote from: K Peterson;815411Based on these features, RQ2 fits more in the category of rules-awesome. 119 pages of quality - fewer than B/X, but certainly not lighter.

Well of course it is rules-awesome. Best single volume rulebook ever. Oh and nice Rurik avatar.

Quote from: RandallS;815394I simply find calling a game with 990 pages in its core rules "rule light" insane.

I'm not claiming B/X is rules light either -- at 128 pages it certainly is unlikely to seem so to a newbie. Nor I am saying "if you want rules light you should be playing B/X".

If pointing out the insanity of saying a game 990 pages in its core rule books is being an asshole, then so be it -- I'm an asshole.

1: And I simply find calling a game with 990 pages in its core rules, but only 10 percent is actually rules "rule heavy" insane.
The basic PHB is 81 pages of actual rules since the rest is equipment and spell stats. The DMG is a mere 9 pages of rules as the majority of the basic DMG is monster and item stat blocks. 90 pages total and that is about what the full game amounts to as well once you pare it down to what is actually rules.

2: Not only do you fail miserably to to even grasp BX to the point Id guess you just looked up a page count online and have never actually seen it. Because if you had youd have known that BX is a bit more than 128 pages since the two modules are part of the rulebooks. Keep far more so than Isle. So by your own skewed illogic that brings the rules up to 192 pages. The actual pages with rules and not stat blocks is actually around 64 for BX and another 10 pages from the modules. Holy smokes! 74 pages of rules! Rules heavy man! Obviously no one ever was able to learn BX because there were too many rules. Gosh. Thanks for clearing that up for all of us. Guess we hallucinated playing way back.

3: Yes you are an insane asshole. There. Happy now?

Think before you spout off utter nonesense. Yes. 5e is alot of pages. But a chunk of those pages is either not rules, random tables, or plain ol padding. Which is where the real problem is for 5e. The rules are lost in the forest of verbosity.

Quote from: Will;815397If people are going to nitpick the comment about rules-light, let's remember the context.

Comparing 5e to PF.

Hell I pitched 5e to the players thus.

Advantage/disadvantage is a core element now. Advantage means you roll twice and use the better, disadvantage is the opposite. Combat now works by using the opponents AC as a target number to roll equal or better. Most saves and checks are a target number to roll against. Spell slots now work like pseudo spell points. Classes have paths you can follow. Backgrounds flesh the character out a little more. Monsters remain potentially viable threats well past their prime so dont underestimate kobolds or goblins.

And a little more. But that summed it up. 5e is really pretty rules light for the stuff that you use all the time. The peripheral rules add on. But even then not too much really. The DMG is like 90% situational bits, options, random gen tables, items, or endgame notes.

I really want a good look at the 5e Basic and see just what it contains in comparison.

I hope somebody makes a stripped down 5e, because where the rules fussiness creeps back in is class abilities.

I was poking at the idea, but I just don't care enough to do the work.

Edit: I'm half-inclined to drop classes or something nutty like that -- pick from a few proficiency options, and then... go.
Trick there would be making a very diffuse magic system that wouldn't require a book of spells to sort through.

Why not just play TSR D&D?

Quote from: Will;815424I hope somebody makes a stripped down 5e, because where the rules fussiness creeps back in is class abilities.

I was poking at the idea, but I just don't care enough to do the work.

Edit: I'm half-inclined to drop classes or something nutty like that -- pick from a few proficiency options, and then... go.
Trick there would be making a very diffuse magic system that wouldn't require a book of spells to sort through.

The Basic PDFs do a fair job of paring things down. I have the start of a file distilling it further as Geezer and a few others were curious. But think someone else beat me to it didnt they?

If you didnt mind some shuffling. You could probably pare it down to T&T levels of a fighter/thief(Adventurer) and a wizard/cleric(Caster). Possibly just by merging the classes, or creative applications of new class emulating feats. Like some of the NEXT feats did for spellcasting. And toss out spells that just dont fit.

Quote from: Endless Flight;815426Why not just play TSR D&D?

Ongoing Spelljammer campaign since 2008.

Quote from: Omega;815421Hell I pitched 5e to the players thus.

Advantage/disadvantage is a core element now. Advantage means you roll twice and use the better, disadvantage is the opposite. Combat now works by using the opponents AC as a target number to roll equal or better. Most saves and checks are a target number to roll against. Spell slots now work like pseudo spell points. Classes have paths you can follow. Backgrounds flesh the character out a little more. Monsters remain potentially viable threats well past their prime so dont underestimate kobolds or goblins.

I'm continually struck by how much 5e can resemble Earthdawn at times. Just separate AC out into physical defense and damage mitigation and pare down/retool the spell lists and you'd be most of the way there even with the resource management magic system. Of course, this is hardly surprising, considering Earthdawn itself is basically D&D with the serial numbers filed off and the worst of the stupidity removed.

Quote from: Bren;815416Well of course it is rules-awesome. Best single volume rulebook ever.

A-hem!

I believe you are mistaken, suh!

Quote from: jeff37923;815445A-hem!

I believe you are mistaken, suh!

Your both wrong,

Quote from: Ronin;815453Your both wrong,

I found the RC just too disorganized and convoluted to enjoy. Id rather sift through BECMI. Though RC has the more interesting art. He might screw up perspecta now and then. but he packed alot of detail into several pieces.

Quote from: jeff37923;815445A-hem!

I believe you are mistaken, suh!

I must protest suh. The original Traveller rules were great, but it was three booklets not one book. So no, no you are wrong.

Water pistols at dawn then?

My dream fantasy RPG book is a cleaned up Rules Cyclopedia with Elmore and Easley art from the boxed sets.

I will say, though, there's a hydra piece in there that's awesome.

Quote from: Endless Flight;815458My dream fantasy RPG book is a cleaned up Rules Cyclopedia with Elmore and Easley art from the boxed sets.

I will say, though, there's a hydra piece in there that's awesome.

I agree with this. I've always had a soft spot for Elmore. I dig his stuff. Course the Mentzer basic set was my first D&D. So I guess it all has a special place in my heart.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;815215If one of them is ultimately victorious, what does that say about the state of the hobby?

Not much, honestly. There are too many other factors that will influence the outcome: Hasbro's deeper pockets. D&D's larger brand recognition. Paizo's higher quality support material. Et cetera.

Quote from: RandallS;815282The 5e PH, MM, and DMG total about 990 pages. That's not even relatively rules light in my book.

Also true. Even if you follow my methodology of stripping out the menu items and focusing exclusively on mechanics, 5E is still mechanically pretty heavy. (Relatively light compared to AD&D, perhaps, but still pretty heavy compared to the rest of the industry.)

As I continue reading through this thread, I see that this has come under some rather strenuous debate. Which I think is a meaningful commentary on how out-of-whack RPG players are in their perception of mechanical complexity.

For example, take the 100 page rulebook of solid mechanics with no fluff and show that to some board gamers. See how complex they assess your thesis-length rulebook to be.