THIS (http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4ItRW9uXfIQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4ItRW9uXfIQ%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded) is pure liquid nostalgic.
I audibly groaned when I saw some of the awesome classic products on the shelves.
The part with 'frothers' (gamers who stop by game shops to talk about their characters) is hilarious. The games workshop guy was spot on when he said 'its like someone describing a movie to you that you have no interest in seeing'.
One surprising thing was the amount of girl gamers featured. For a hobby that was supposedly in a patriarchal dark age until the SJWs came along to war for inclusion, this news report doesn't seem to paint that picture.
Quote from: TristramEvans;704753One surprising thing was the amount of girl gamers featured. For a hobby that was supposedly in a patriarchal dark age until the SJWs came along to war for inclusion, this news report doesn't seem to paint that picture.
I never experienced that boys' club stereotype with RPGs back then. Our High School group was about half female and they weren't there because any of the guys were their boyfriends, they were just fantasy nerds like the rest of us.
It was my sister and her friends that taught me D&D back in the late 70's.
Quote from: dragoner;704771It was my sister and her friends that taught me D&D back in the late 70's.
Yeah, I was taught by a friend's older sister.
Quote from: TristramEvans;704773Yeah, I was taught by a friend's older sister.
It was a pretty classic: "we need another player" situation and my sister volunteered me. Though I was already chess club and all that.
Few girls play Traveller compared to fantasy RPGs. That has always been the case. There were hardly any girls wargaming in the '70s. D&D had girl players from the beginning.
The very first time I played D&D with Gary Gygax back in 1972 there was a young woman (college age) playing.
Her elf was already a Hero/Magician, so she'd been playing a while, too.
Girls, then later women, have gamed with the various groups I've been in pretty much from the start.
Just to add to the pile on, an older friend introduced me to D&D. I borrowed his copy of Moldvay, went home, read it, and then ran a game for my sister. She then DM'd many of our games afterwards.
Quote from: TristramEvans;704753The part with 'frothers' (gamers who stop by game shops to talk about their characters) is hilarious.
These days, that sort of person talks about their fantasy football (or baseball) team.
While I can't say that I miss them, it shows how RPGs have shifted from being somewhat mainstream to niche
Quote from: JeremyR;704827These days, that sort of person talks about their fantasy football (or baseball) team.
While I can't say that I miss them, it shows how RPGs have shifted from being somewhat mainstream to niche
Or thier 4th edition character builds. At least in the 80s when people droned on about thier imaginary alter egos you could understand what they were talking about.
Quote from: TristramEvans;704753The part with 'frothers' (gamers who stop by game shops to talk about their characters) is hilarious. The games workshop guy was spot on when he said 'its like someone describing a movie to you that you have no interest in seeing'.
When I worked as a bartender, this type of customer behavior was quite common. The "frothers" rambled on just about any topic, whether politics, the weather, their day at work, troubles with kids and/or spouse, television shows, movies, their sex life or lack thereof, current events, popular music, etc ...
A part of many bartenders' jobs, is being an unofficial shrink. :rolleyes:
I started gaming in 1981 in a Midwestern American college town, and I am very sorry to say that around here the stereotype was very true: Female gamers were extremely rare... until Vampire: The Masquerade at least doubled their numbers seemingly overnight in the early 90's.
When we weren't dodging D&D Witch Hunts... One of the early groups I gamed with had about 50/50 male/female ratio. When I was GMing D&D boxed it was an all girl crew. My two sisters and grandmother... aheh.
The stereotype was true in a lot of places. I vividly remember a point when I was running a game at my alma mater (this being something like 1987). In talking with some of the freshmen who had joined one of my sessions and who were flabbergasted that I Had A Female Player!, I mentioned that historically, about a third of my players were women, that I'd never had a group that didn't have at least one female player, and that I'd had two all-female groups at varying points. The three's jaws dropped almost in unison, and they looked at me with the same reverent gazes that they might on some Superstud Surfer God, because obviously I had to be some sort of man among men to attract that much female attention.
The same thing held true at my FLGS, several years before. The fellow who ran the counter daytimes asked me what my secret was, once. I probably gave him some manner of bewildered "Huh?" and he went on to explain that I seemed to *always* come in there with a different woman. So what was my secret? It took me a bit of time to convince him that no, I hadn't been dating any of them, that they happened to be my friends, that most of my friends *were* women, and that I must have just shown up with a few separate friends who just happened to be women. I'm not sure I did convince him.
Quote from: TristramEvans;704753THIS (http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4ItRW9uXfIQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4ItRW9uXfIQ%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded) is pure liquid nostalgic.
That was a lot of fun, thanks! 1984, wow - I even saw the Fighting Fantasy RPG on the shelves, so it must have been about the time I got into RPGs; I'd started with FF gamebooks about a year earlier. I was 11.
Am I right in thinking that when they sit down to play the guy sitting next to Ben Elton is a young Jervis Johnson?
Quote from: noisms;704866Am I right in thinking that when they sit down to play the guy sitting next to Ben Elton is a young Jervis Johnson?
Could be.
Wow, that Fellowship of the Ring box from ICE really took me back.
About girls playing D&D, maybe it's a regional thing, because the girls I knew growing up were actively hostile to the concept of D&D (and the boys who played them in particular). It wasn't until I went away to college in the late 80's that I discovered that girls played D&D too.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;704875Wow, that Fellowship of the Ring box from ICE really took me back.
About girls playing D&D, maybe it's a regional thing, because the girls I knew growing up were actively hostile to the concept of D&D (and the boys who played them in particular). It wasn't until I went away to college in the late 80's that I discovered that girls played D&D too.
Ashland was alot better. :cool:
Quote from: flyerfan1991;704875About girls playing D&D, maybe it's a regional thing...
Or group by group; that is sort of how it works outside of gaming as well.
Quote from: dragoner;704992Or group by group; that is sort of how it works outside of gaming as well.
Perhaps so, but I do think regional influences are a factor.
I would have loved to have gamed with girls back in high school in the 80s, but I also think that my teenaged self would have been suspicious at first if a girl had suddenly dropped by and announced she wanted to try out D&D or MERP. I'd seen enough practical jokes on my fellow geeks back in the day for me to not be completely trusting.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;705019Perhaps so, but I do think regional influences are a factor.
If you were in Ohio, I don't think north-central Indiana was much different, we get a lot from Chicago though.
I also have four sisters, so growing up, I was always surrounded by girls.
Quote from: noisms;704866Am I right in thinking that when they sit down to play the guy sitting next to Ben Elton is a young Jervis Johnson?
The fellow in the white shirt? I do believe it was, it looks like him. That was Ian Livingstone and Steve Jackson at that table... Pretty big names in the UK gaming scene.
It was funny seeing the Games Workshop store, back when they sold other games. Pretty cool.
I was really surprised that the video wasn't really derogatory against gaming and those that played them. There were a few cringe worthy moments, but still wasn't that bad...
The only thing I remember from that time was all the hate... I lived through the Satanic Panic, so felt ostracized for being a gamer...
Quote from: dragoner;705021If you were in Ohio, I don't think north-central Indiana was much different, we get a lot from Chicago though.
I also have four sisters, so growing up, I was always surrounded by girls.
Actually, it does depend in what part of Ohio. SW Ohio is heavily Catholic, as is the farming region North of Dayton. SW Ohio is also much more politically conservative than NE Ohio, which has an impact in how personalities such as television evangelists are perceived.
But the Four sisters
does have a big impact. I keep telling my son, who is sandwiched in age between his two sisters, that he should be glad he has sisters who are geeks.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;705035Actually, it does depend in what part of Ohio. SW Ohio is heavily Catholic, as is the farming region North of Dayton. SW Ohio is also much more politically conservative than NE Ohio, which has an impact in how personalities such as television evangelists are perceived.
But the Four sisters does have a big impact. I keep telling my son, who is sandwiched in age between his two sisters, that he should be glad he has sisters who are geeks.
Ashland is about 200miles NE and even there we had problems. We also had girl gamers. So there is some tradeoff I guess.
You know if we start reminiscing about Certain Ethnic Role Players only you and I are going you get the joke...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piJYjHUJQLo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piJYjHUJQLo)
How common were "frothers" at gaming stores back in the day? (As depicted in the OP youtube link).
Other than when I played 3.5E or 4E D&D games at a gaming store, I didn't really hang out at gaming stores when I wasn't actively playing an rpg game. I didn't really come across "frother" gaming store customers, as depicted in the youtube video.
Over the last decade or so, the "frothers" I came across were usually other players I previously played rpg campaigns with. When we would go to happy hour or supper, such individuals would be "frothing" like crazy about their D&D character or other "current events" topics in the tabletop rpg world.
Quote from: Omega;705043Ashland is about 200miles NE and even there we had problems. We also had girl gamers. So there is some tradeoff I guess.
You know if we start reminiscing about Certain Ethnic Role Players only you and I are going you get the joke...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piJYjHUJQLo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piJYjHUJQLo)
I actually do get the joke, but that's because I had college friends from the Cleveland area. Not so many Polish immigrants in SW Ohio, but we do have pierogies.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;704812Girls, then later women, have gamed with the various groups I've been in pretty much from the start.
Same, here.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;705035Actually, it does depend in what part of Ohio. SW Ohio is heavily Catholic, as is the farming region North of Dayton. SW Ohio is also much more politically conservative than NE Ohio, which has an impact in how personalities such as television evangelists are perceived.
But the Four sisters does have a big impact. I keep telling my son, who is sandwiched in age between his two sisters, that he should be glad he has sisters who are geeks.
Sisters were generally OK, like I said, it was my sister that got me into roleplaying.
As far as Indiana, Lafayette to be exact; we have a huge engineering school: Purdue, and tons of factories. Indiana as a rule is considered conservative, and very many Catholics; but we never had any trouble at all. There was a big university group, then smaller groups clustered and broken off from that; my group played in the public library.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;705035Actually, it does depend in what part of Ohio. SW Ohio is heavily Catholic, as is the farming region North of Dayton. SW Ohio is also much more politically conservative than NE Ohio, which has an impact in how personalities such as television evangelists are perceived.
From my naive un-American perspective I'd have thought that Catholics and Televangelists would not mix at all?
Quote from: S'mon;705081From my naive un-American perspective I'd have thought that Catholics and Televangelists would not mix at all?
It's kind of weird how that works out.
Typically you'd not expect their paths to cross, but during the late 70s-mid 80s there wasn't a Catholic "presence" on television/cable. There might have been the odd locally produced show, but nothing on the level of Bishop Fulton Sheen's radio and television shows back in the day. Therefore, you'd see some Catholic parents --especially those around the borders of the Bible Belt-- taking cues from the burgeoning field of televangelism. My parents, for example, used to take notes on what rock bands were considered "Satanic" and then cross reference with my own cassette collection. So, when the Satanic Panic hit, it was natural that this sort of thing would be picked up by those who would watch the 700 Club.
From the mid-80s onward, Catholics got their own cable network --EWTN-- so the groups didn't mix as much, but the damage had already been done.
Quote from: S'mon;705081From my naive un-American perspective I'd have thought that Catholics and Televangelists would not mix at all?
Technically they don't, since Catholics are pagans to evangelical "Chrustians"; but there are differences even in Catholics, like the separation between Germans and Irish.
The chap running the game is Albie Fiorie, one of the great unsung heroes of the early days of D&D in the UK. He wrote about D&D very early on in the mid-seventies when he was the editor of Game & Puzzles magazine. He went on to be become the editor of White Dwarf in the early days, as well as do the graphic design for things like the Dungeon Floor Plans and board games that GW published back in the late seventies and early eighties, and he was responsible for putting together the AD&D Fiend Folio based on articles that appeared in WD. Several of his adventures were published in WD, and are well worth checking out if you can track them down.
I was lucky enough to play in some of his games, and he was easily one of the best and most imaginative GMs I've ever met. He had a quirky sense of humor; I can remember that early in our career exploring one of his dungeons, we were approached by a shifty figure who sold us some magic potions. He'd usually be around near the entrance when we entered the dungeon, appearing with a whispered "Psssst" to sell us some potions. These were pretty minor things – they would cure a few HPs damage, or give you +1 to hit for a fight, that kind of thing – but they didn't cost much, so we'd always buy a few.
Then, after a few games, Albie let us know that the we were getting strange cravings for the potions, and our stats started to go down if we didn't drink at least one during the session. Strangely, the price of the potions started to go up by quite a bit at this point, and often our helpful dealer would only have potions that took away the craving, and gave no benefit in return! An early lesson in the perils of addiction, and that you should always very carefully look a gift horse in the mouth...
Quote from: TristramEvans;704753The part with 'frothers'
ALL OF THE DRUGS. ALL OF THE TIME.
...wait, no other SLA players here? If "frother" was an actual gamer slang term back then, it just makes the joke funnier.
"Frother" isn't a bit of slang I've heard before, but it's a useful enough term.
Thing is, I don't think it's even a regional deal. It's a matter of what kind of environment the FLGS has going. Back in the early days, I patronized two FLGSs in the Boston area. I never encountered "frothing" at one; at the other, it was pretty common. Were I to speculate, three decades and more down the line, I imagine the dividing line was that the first FLGS was owned by a traditional board gamer and the counterman wasn't a gamer; the management and staff of the other were solidly RPGers and wargamers. A good part of the time, the latter store's staffers were part of the frothing, and I was standing around -- purchases in hand -- tapping my feet, waiting to be served while the cashier was burbling on about his invincible character or that cool session last month.
If that second store wasn't in walking distance of my college and had a better selection, I doubt I'd ever have patronized it as much as I did.
This video reminded me of two things: first, how GW was once totally awesome and not a shit-soaked crap-factory.
Second, LARPers were fucking lame right from the very beginning.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Glazer;705101The chap running the game is Albie Fiorie, one of the great unsung heroes of the early days of D&D in the UK. He wrote about D&D very early on in the mid-seventies when he was the editor of Game & Puzzles magazine. He went on to be become the editor of White Dwarf in the early days, as well as do the graphic design for things like the Dungeon Floor Plans and board games that GW published back in the late seventies and early eighties, and he was responsible for putting together the AD&D Fiend Folio based on articles that appeared in WD. Several of his adventures were published in WD, and are well worth checking out if you can track them down.
I also got a kick out of seeing that name. All we were missing were a Don Turnbull or Graeme Morris for a complete who's who of UK gaming at the time.
I loved he almost board gamey element of gradually revealing the dungeon as you explored it.
With regard to the number of women in the video, this being a TV program I wouldn't be surprised if the producers tried to get as many woman gamers as possible onto the screen to broaden the appeal.
Wondering why the boxes of stuff shown in the beginning is infinitely more compelling than the crap I see in the gaming store now...
Quote from: Fiasco;705790With regard to the number of women in the video, this being a TV program I wouldn't be surprised if the producers tried to get as many woman gamers as possible onto the screen to broaden the appeal.
Take note that a-lot of the gals shown are in the LARP segment. LARPs tend to attract a fair share of women. One of the big non-Vamp ones local might be close to 50/50. Not sure.
I think they just filmed a-lot of people and used the ones who signed the waiver and could articulate well enough to get across what they were saying, and looked interesting. Fairly standard. Ive been in two documentary interview sessions.
Quote from: TristramEvans;704753THIS (http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4ItRW9uXfIQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4ItRW9uXfIQ%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded) is pure liquid nostalgic.
I audibly groaned when I saw some of the awesome classic products on the shelves.
The part with 'frothers' (gamers who stop by game shops to talk about their characters) is hilarious. The games workshop guy was spot on when he said 'its like someone describing a movie to you that you have no interest in seeing'.
One surprising thing was the amount of girl gamers featured. For a hobby that was supposedly in a patriarchal dark age until the SJWs came along to war for inclusion, this news report doesn't seem to paint that picture.
As a woman let me give you a hint...right before WW there was Palladium Fantasy, lots of females in that player base. But honestly it wasn't until VtM and with it LARP on a large scale did women really come into the hobby in significant numbers. Which was the very late'80's and early'90's.
Quote from: Marleycat;705951As a woman let me give you a hint...right before WW there was Palladium Fantasy, lots of females in that player base.
I'm not familiar with that game. Was there a reason that one in particular attracted a large female fanbase?
Quote from: TristramEvans;705952I'm not familiar with that game. Was there a reason that one in particular attracted a large female fanbase?
Like myself I think female gamers tend to prefer horror and fantasy with horror themes. Hence Palladium Fantasy basically Dnd with horror overtones. The game pulled no punches about magic or paths therein or demons/devils unlike it's contemporary 2e.
It's alignment system was well explained in modern terms and allowed for moral ambiguity just like any White Wolf game. Which is key for any horror/fantasy-horror not in the slasher/slapstick genre.
Quote from: Marleycat;705954Like myself I think female gamers tend to prefer horror and fantasy with horror themes. Hence Palladium Fantasy basically Dnd with horror overtones. The game pulled no punches about magic or paths therein or demons/devils unlike it's contemporary 2e.
It's alignment system was well explained in modern terms and allowed for moral ambiguity just like any White Wolf game. Which is key for any horror/fantasy-horror not in the slasher/slapstick genre.
I just figured that the reason why V:tM did so well was that the fires of interest were stoked by the Anne Rice vampire novels.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;705956I just figured that the reason why V:tM did so well was that the fires of interest were stoked by the Anne Rice vampire novels.
Not to be mean but what took you so long? They are the perfect example of fantasy/horror.:)
Quote from: Marleycat;705954Like myself I think female gamers tend to prefer horror and fantasy with horror themes. Hence Palladium Fantasy basically Dnd with horror overtones. The game pulled no punches about magic or paths therein or demons/devils unlike it's contemporary 2e.
It's alignment system was well explained in modern terms and allowed for moral ambiguity just like any White Wolf game. Which is key for any horror/fantasy-horror not in the slasher/slapstick genre.
Saw that too with Dragon Storm and Call of Cthulhu. By coincidence or not, both of those also have a darker tone to them. Probably good for its own thread.
Sometimes it just takes a certain catalyst to attract. My sisters liked Gamma World but werent so into D&D and kinda neutral on Star Frontiers. Spelljammer though got their attention and later briefly Planescape before everyone parted ways to different states.
Quote from: Marleycat;705957Not to be mean but what took you so long? They are the perfect example of fantasy/horror.:)
And eroticism. Given the Anne Rice novel's descendents in urban fantasy, there's a big play on eroticism with vampires and werewolves. In fact, I'm quite sure that the whole vampire/werewolf/shapeshifter thing has jumped the shark, but I can't pinpoint exactly where.
As for me, I've been busy, and trying to avoid replying to the Republican thread as much as possible. ;) Our neighborhood is filled with Tea Partiers, so I'm quite familiar with their rhetoric.
Quote from: Marleycat;705951As a woman let me give you a hint...right before WW there was Palladium Fantasy, lots of females in that player base. But honestly it wasn't until VtM and with it LARP on a large scale did women really come into the hobby in significant numbers. Which was the very late'80's and early'90's.
I formed a theory as to why our combat fantasy LARP was so much more egalitarian than many a tabletop group: basically, if a woman fighter can kick your ass on the battlefield, it's pretty hard for you to marginalize her.
Quote from: RPGPundit;705750This video reminded me of two things: first, how GW was once totally awesome and not a shit-soaked crap-factory.
RPGPundit
I started reading some of the "Oldhammer" community blogs and I was surprised at just how nostalgic they made me. I had forgotten just how fresh, exciting, and inspiring classics like the original Rouge Trader and the two Realms of Chaos tomes were back when they were new.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;706391I started reading some of the "Oldhammer" community blogs and I was surprised at just how nostalgic they made me. I had forgotten just how fresh, exciting, and inspiring classics like the original Rouge Trader and the two Realms of Chaos tomes were back when they were new.
Oldhammer is the OSR of wargaming, only far far better
Quote from: Ravenswing;706026I formed a theory as to why our combat fantasy LARP was so much more egalitarian than many a tabletop group: basically, if a woman fighter can kick your ass on the battlefield, it's pretty hard for you to marginalize her.
Also why gender equality somehow going back to the 19th century in post apocalyptic scenarios is tripe - if you can squeeze a trigger, you're equal.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;706391I had forgotten just how fresh, exciting, and inspiring classics like the original Rouge Trader and the two Realms of Chaos tomes were back when they were new.
Is that like rogue trader only more fabulous?
Sorry, sorry, carry on.
Quote from: The Traveller;706461Is that like rogue trader only more fabulous?
Sorry, sorry, carry on.
LOL.
No, it's the one that's like Rogue Trader only with mass-murdering early 70's Cambodian Communists.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;706463LOL.
No, it's the one that's like Rogue Trader only with mass-murdering early 70's Cambodian Communists.
That eh, that still sounds like today's WH40k. Seriously look at the uniforms of the Comissars and compare with the uniforms of the guys in
Enemy at the Gates. They even have a little holy book hanging from their belts.
Quote from: The Traveller;706461Also why gender equality somehow going back to the 19th century in post apocalyptic scenarios is tripe - if you can squeeze a trigger, you're equal.
Luckily most PA RPGs and some movies tend to show the women doing fairly well when given a chance.
Quote from: Marleycat;705954Like myself I think female gamers tend to prefer horror and fantasy with horror themes. Hence Palladium Fantasy basically Dnd with horror overtones. The game pulled no punches about magic or paths therein or demons/devils unlike it's contemporary 2e.
It's alignment system was well explained in modern terms and allowed for moral ambiguity just like any White Wolf game. Which is key for any horror/fantasy-horror not in the slasher/slapstick genre.
This is interesting. I personally never observed a great number of female gamers gravitating toward Palladium, though I don't find your experience surprising.
I should add that Palladium Fantasy, at least the real version, provided illustrations of all the magic circles and symbols the Summoner and Diabolist classes could create. There were lists detailing what medium each circle was to be drawn with, what if anything was to be sacrificed and where that sacrifice was to be placed, and what power words were to be spoken. The power words were all spelt out phonetically.
This game taught you to conjure a balrog in your living room.
Beat that, TSR.
Quote from: Omega;706523Luckily most PA RPGs and some movies tend to show the women doing fairly well when given a chance.
Alice for the win.:D
Quote from: Dan Vincze;706529This is interesting. I personally never observed a great number of female gamers gravitating toward Palladium, though I don't find your experience surprising.
I should add that Palladium Fantasy, at least the real version, provided illustrations of all the magic circles and symbols the Summoner and Diabolist classes could create. There were lists detailing what medium each circle was to be drawn with, what if anything was to be sacrificed and where that sacrifice was to be placed, and what power words were to be spoken. The power words were all spelt out phonetically.
This game taught you to conjure a balrog in your living room.
Beat that, TSR.
Yup, and not just the Diabolist's and Summoner's. Anyway I was in an all female group in Palladium talk about bloodthirsty....