TheRPGSite

What do you think are the worst practices in RP gaming?

Can we agree railroading is one of them? Or does it have it's place?

Let me nominate illusionism as worse than the simple, open railroading;).

Quote from: Itachi;989605Can we agree railroading is one of them? Or does it have it's place?

I can see a very deliberate and short-lived part of a very specific type of game (which I call a 'Cool Hand Luke' game) where you are trying to evoke a sense of lack of control and agency onto a situation for a deliberate effect. Inside that very specific boundary, perhaps railroading would be advisable. But that would seem like a deliberate subverting of something's general nature for deliberate effect, which often forgives otherwise bad things (e.g. punk rock's using the juxtaposition of tonal and atonal qualities for effect doesn't make atonal sounds routinely pleasant to listen to).

Otherwise, yeah, railroading sits somewhere between lazy and objectionable, with illusionism towards the harsher end of the spectrum.

Some people want to play a railroad. That's why WotC's published campaigns sell well, Paizo exists as a company, and Margaret Weis is mildly famous.

One of the worst practices is the "Rule of Cool" rubric to let players get away with doing "creative" things that break the game and are nearly impossible to walk back, like letting a player use Create or Destroy Water to dessicate an enemy after a cut. Congratulations, idiot, you have now given a 2nd-level character Power Word: Kill. Same thing goes with "You can try anything!" meaning "I will set a meaningful target DC and give a minimum 5% chance for any nonsense you come up with to happen!"

"You can try anything" should work like this:

Player: I pray to Heironeous to send a flight of Planars to help us through this level 3 dungeon!
DM: You fervently pray for ten minutes, but nothing happens.
Player: Hey, you said I can always try.
DM: I did. I didn't say there would always be a non-zero chance of success.

Computers or screens of any type at the table.  

Miss aligned expetations.

Quote from: Headless;989640Miss aligned expetations.

Misaligned expectations really is the only true answer, isn't it? :)

Being too dirty or weighing too much are terrible Roleplaying practices. Please shower before you attend a game, and if you weigh 400 lbs. maybe Bring Your Own (weight-appropriate) Chair.

I'm not a fan of railroading...

Or 'hounding'. Where the players have absolutely no decompression time. The whole game is just about relentlessly dashing from one fight to another.

General rudeness.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;989634Some people want to play a railroad. That's why WotC's published campaigns sell well, Paizo exists as a company, and Margaret Weis is mildly famous.

I don't think that's actually true. I think railroads eliminate a lot of variables making it easier for the GM to run. I think it allows the GM to know in advance what needs to be planned, prepped, or read. As a result, the play experience is a smooth one where it's clear what you're hoping to achieve and why. I think that's really what some people want. And for a portion of those, who dislike planning and just want to get straight to the action, being handed the "how" is also a benefit.

Why split hairs on this feature/benefit stuff? Because the better GMs can deliver a smooth game with clear motives and objectives and top quality content while allowing more deviation from the line. Of course I could be wrong about the exact reasons players enjoy a good railroading. It might be some other benefit associated with railroad play. But I am fairly certain the "feature" isn't the reason, the "benefit" is. And if I am wrong about what the exact benefit is, I'm fairly confident after a relatively short period of experimenting, I could run a non-railroad game that railroad enthusiasts would enjoy just as much. So from where I sit, it's understandable then why a pure railroad would be delegated to a lower echelon of play.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;989634Some people want to play a railroad.

See my players. They love a railroad, or as they call it "missions". They are completely lost in a sandbox. They want nothing more than to be handwaved from fight to fight.

I don't much care as long as you show up on  time. I hate tardy players who waste the time of the ref and the other players.

Quote from: Lunamancer;989722I don't think that's actually true. I think railroads eliminate a lot of variables making it easier for the GM to run. I think it allows the GM to know in advance what needs to be planned, prepped, or read. As a result, the play experience is a smooth one where it's clear what you're hoping to achieve and why. I think that's really what some people want. And for a portion of those, who dislike planning and just want to get straight to the action, being handed the "how" is also a benefit.

Why split hairs on this feature/benefit stuff? Because the better GMs can deliver a smooth game with clear motives and objectives and top quality content while allowing more deviation from the line. Of course I could be wrong about the exact reasons players enjoy a good railroading. It might be some other benefit associated with railroad play. But I am fairly certain the "feature" isn't the reason, the "benefit" is. And if I am wrong about what the exact benefit is, I'm fairly confident after a relatively short period of experimenting, I could run a non-railroad game that railroad enthusiasts would enjoy just as much. So from where I sit, it's understandable then why a pure railroad would be delegated to a lower echelon of play.

I always think your avatar is Squidward.

Quote from: The Exploited.;989721Or 'hounding'. Where the players have absolutely no decompression time. The whole game is just about relentlessly dashing from one fight to another.

I can see 'hounding' having its place... such as when trying to escape from a village of mad cultists... but yeah, not for an entire game, every game.

One that's a bit of a pet peeve is GMs who give away too much OOC. Like, they just can't keep from letting you in on their brilliant ideas, even though the PCs would have no ideas. Setting secrets, detailed/accurate maps, villain motives... stuff that should be unknown till the PCs discover it... or don't. Even after the fact I really don't want to hear about the great stuff we missed or almost got.

Railroading is bad, but is almost universally considered bad (unless the PCs are okay with it, I guess).

I'd say the worst practices are covert; trying to tell a "story" with a RPG (despite the PCs choices), illusionism/"quantum ogres", etc.

Quote from: Eric Diaz;989773I'd say the worst practices are covert; trying to tell a "story" with a RPG (despite the PCs choices), illusionism/"quantum ogres", etc.

What are those?  My guess illusionism is the practice of presenting four directions to go, and whichever is picked just happens to be the correct route to the Place of Mystery?

Quote from: AsenRG;989610Let me nominate illusionism

But how do you know when it's #Illusionism? :D

Quote from: AsenRG;989610as worse than the simple, open railroading;).

But #Railroads are incredibly popular!

Quote from: fearsomepirate;989634One of the worst practices is the "Rule of Cool" rubric to let players get away with doing "creative" things that break the game and are nearly impossible to walk back, like letting a player use Create or Destroy Water to dessicate an enemy after a cut. Congratulations, idiot, you have now given a 2nd-level character Power Word: Kill.

But that's the entire foundation of #OSR play!

Quote from: Headless;989640Computers or screens of any type at the table.

But all my #RPG books are on a tablet!

Being late on a regular basis and phones at the table. Pay the fuck attention.

Quote from: Itachi;989605What do you think are the worst practices in RP gaming?

Flipping the table while yelling in a rage goes on my list.

Quote from: DavetheLost;989732See my players. They love a railroad, or as they call it "missions". They are completely lost in a sandbox.

Can they deviate from the mission? Get really creative with how they fulfill the mission? Fail to take the objective and experience actual consequences as a result? Add additional objectives that their CO or High Command never even considered?

Then it probably isn't a railroad. Missions and railroads are not the same thing.

QuoteThey want nothing more than to be handwaved from fight to fight.

OK, maybe they do want a railroad. :D

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;989792My guess illusionism is the practice of presenting four directions to go, and whichever is picked just happens to be the correct route to the Place of Mystery?

Good guess.

Another one that I dislike is fudging dice rolls; feels like cheating to me. I'd prefer a cheating player than a cheating GM, TBH, even if the GM cheats to save the PCs.

This is somewhat related to the problem at hand, i.e., GMs making players choices meaningless.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;989792What are those?  My guess illusionism is the practice of presenting four directions to go, and whichever is picked just happens to be the correct route to the Place of Mystery?

Yeah, that is it; "quantum ogre" is just another name for the same concept (you have only one ogre, but he is behind whichever door the players choose).

EDIT: just found this bit by Justin ALexander, which explains some concepts nicely:

More generally, I think your example of combat with the ogre is conflating illusionism (“I’m going to present you with a false choice; no matter what you choose, it will result in the outcome I predetermined”), dice-fudging (“I’m going to modify the mechanical outcome of this action resolution in order to change the outcome to something I think will be preferable”), and script immunity (“you can’t die, no matter what you choose or how the dice roll”). While people with a particular taste for “let’s see what happens, good or bad” are going to be unified in their dislike for all three of these things, they’re actually very different things. And attempting to conflate all three of them into being a single thing is, IMO, needlessly muddying the waters of understanding.

I think dishonesty in presenting the style of game being played is pretty bad, whether you were told to expect a hack and slash D&D adventure and end up navigating a largely scripted courtly intrigue or vis versa.  The expectations and intentions should be clear.  This is one way in which a ruleset can be a social contract that clarifies the style of game.  But even then the GM should be clear about what their game will be like and the players should be clear about what they want.  I set up a AD&D 1e group once with the intent that it be an old school combat oriented game and the PCs spent the first session talking to a frog*.  I handed them potential combat encounter after combat encounter and they disengaged every time.  Oh well it was fun while it lasted but talk about not getting what you offered.

*Well a Death Slaad posing as a talking frog anyway.  Chaotic neutral what're you gonna do?  Why?  What's wrong with using a Death Slaad as a quest giver? It's looking to spread chaos in the world and what does that better than a pack of murder hobos?

When I was in my late teens and early twenties some of the things that drove me away from RPGs were powergamers and creeps who used the game to act out their barely repressed sadism and sexual misery.

Quote from: Dumarest;989737I don't much care as long as you show up on  time. I hate tardy players who waste the time of the ref and the other players.

[rant]
Yes this.
I've pretty much recently burned out from GMing for a while due to having to chase people and contacting them regularly to ensure they turn up, even then I get people cancelling at the last minute due to various excuses.
I have asked people to not to agree to come if they don't want to and it's always, yeah I'll defo come etc...  until the day itself and it's all excuses.
It just turned into more work chasing people than putting the work into maintaining a campaign.. grrrr..
[/rant]

Anyway, right now I only run some DnD sessions at an open table club twice a month, which doesn't rely on particular people turning up... much less hassle and more fun.

Quote from: Simlasa;989757I can see 'hounding' having its place... such as when trying to escape from a village of mad cultists... but yeah, not for an entire game, every game.

One that's a bit of a pet peeve is GMs who give away too much OOC. Like, they just can't keep from letting you in on their brilliant ideas, even though the PCs would have no ideas. Setting secrets, detailed/accurate maps, villain motives... stuff that should be unknown till the PCs discover it... or don't. Even after the fact I really don't want to hear about the great stuff we missed or almost got.

Oh aye! Definitely... I use it myself a lot to create panic and drama and keep PCs on the back foot (where dramatically appropriate).

I was kinda' referring to a couple of bad GM experiences that I had where (the entire campaign ran like that).

It was the most bizarre game I'd ever played. :( We all started leaving the game as well. The GM must have there wondered why people would weren't turning up.

Actually looking back, we should have told him, but he was such as nice dude nobody had the guts to hurt his feelings (myself included). :(

Quote from: Voros;989872When I was in my late teens and early twenties some of the things that drove me away from RPGs were powergamers and creeps who used the game to act out their barely repressed sadism and sexual misery.

God! This as well for me... I can't stand power gamers (I used to be one when I was 15).

When I was GMing Vampire many moons ago I came across a lad who wanted to play a Tzimice. Cool I thought, I love them. However, all he wanted to do was torture humans - He even brought up a few medieval torture books for reference. Needless to say, after a few sessions he wasn't asked back.

I say he's got a few heads in his fridge. :(

One thing I have occasionally seen in various groups over the years, which I cannot stand, is a bullying practice where one player has his character attack another player character in order to assert a dominance or settle some sort of gaming (or other) grievance. They tend to have power gamer tendencies too - the sort of player who 'rolls up' a character that miraculously has high stats and are combat freaks - so they often have advantage over other characters. They seem to think that the virtual space of the game world makes it a legitimate thing to do in a game.  

If anybody acts like that in games I run, these days, I ask them to reconsider their character actions or leave.

Quote from: Itachi;989605What do you think are the worst practices in RP gaming?

Can we agree railroading is one of them? Or does it have it's place?

Players who have no intention of role-playing, enabled by desperate GMs who settle for crap players at their table.

No call, no shows. I make it a point to ensure my players have my phone number, email address, and Facebook messenger handle. If you can't be bothered to let me know you aren't going to make it when we have agreed to play, then I can't be bothered to run a game for you.

Even worse, is finding out that a portion of the players are going to miss the game because of some event which is known for weeks and the players not bothering to tell me that you all are going to this other event instead of the game. That is just fucking insulting.


Deliberately stupid player character actions because the player doesn't feel like gaming just pisses me off. I get it, sometimes you just don't have it in you to game. Just let me know in advance and it is cool. Don't have your character do stupid childish shit in game, it is nothing more than a temper tantrum by proxy and can really fuck things up for the rest of the players (which is not fair to them).

I think cheating on dice rolls bugs me worse, even more than players not turning up. GMs cancelling at the last minute is second worst. GMs not showing up at all is the worst RPG practice!

Coming to the game completely unprepared, no paper, pencil, dice, character sheet, etc.  I now collect all the character sheets into a folder at the end of each session, just to be sure they are available for the next.

Not paying attention to the game. Never being ready when called upon for your action. "Huh? You're on intitiative 3? But I was a 6"

Bullying other players at the table, including using your character to the threaten theirs.

Explicitly detailing your power gore rape violence fantasies when noone else at teh table wants to hear them.

Constantly interupting the GM with questions that are not relevant to what is happening in the game. e.g. interupting mid-combat to ask how a special ability works for the new character you are rolling up. That is just rude to everyone else at the table.

Prolonged discussions about what happened in your Warhammer game last week.  

Definitely agree with the dislike of over-indulgence in the gore/sadism/sexuality stuff.  That gets extremely uncomfortable real quick for me.  Even in horror games.

Players who seem to take pleasure in finding clever little loopholes in the rules that kinda break the game and then insisting on taking full advantage of them.

Not reading the Player's Handbook or the equivalent.

I have lost count of the number of players who just assumed it was the DM's job to know the rules and remind to them that their Paladin could use "Lay on Hands" ("Lay on what? What is it?") before the Ranger croaked.

I know some of my players have read at least the monster section of the rulebook for our current campaign, I heard them discussing the abilities of various monsters at the table. I am going to run teh game on the presumption that they have therefor read the rest of the rulebook. Especially since I have repeatedly informed them of where they can get the rulebook for free online.  I have even given them cheat sheets with their characters' special abilities all spelled out.

Not knowing the rules after the first session or so is just not excusable.  "How do I roll to hit again?" "What do I need to hit AC 5?"  actual quotes from the table. And the character sheets have printed at the bottom a table of to hit scores required for each AC.

I've been slowly convinced that illusionism is the devil. :)  Railroading, characters with immunity, and other such things that I generally avoid, but I can see that they have times and places where they make sense, given the tastes of a given group.  I don't fudge, but I can make a case for some groups.  I've yet to see a single case for illusionism that couldn't be easily handled some other way.

On the player side, cheating is at the top of the list.  It's a game about make believe, which means any cheating is a sign of some kind of personal problem in the player.  There is not even the excuse of avoiding some serious, real outcome.

Edition Warriors

If it's one thing I despise in the hobby it's edition warring. I don't care how many years of experience one has playing the hobby. I don't care if you were going into petrified forest blowing up trees and carving the remains into dice. I can respect not liking a particular edition of a rpg. Going into a rant at the mention of the rpg, no just seeing the logo of the company who produces it sending someone into a frothing unwanted rant about the rpg. Just has me handing you the business card of a reputable mental healthcare professional with me walking away.

Children in the bodies of Adults

I expect a certain level of maturity at my table. If one is unwilling to do so I will show you the door. If one tries to rage quit by flipping the table chances are my players and I will throw it right back at you (which did happen once). I don't have the time nor patience to deal with children in the bodies of adults no matter the gender. Act your age or Fuck Off and go see a mental health care professional.

Gamers unwilling to commit

Even when told in advance that while we don't play every week. We as a group want to play on a regular basis. While my group and myself no longer have the free time to play every week or the energy to play 12 hour sessions. Coupled with having families and responsabilites. It's just not as easy as it was to schedule regular games. FYI if your going to lie about showing up to a session by claiming to be sick. Don't add the group to your Facebook account as claiming to be sick in bed. Then posting on FB the exact opposite thing makes you look bad to the group. A lack of respect to the group as well as probably not going to be asked to show to the next game. That being said when children and a spouse enter the picture. Sometimes last minute cancellations happen. Sorry but if I had children and my child was sick he gets top priority over a rpg.

Railroading

I dislike using it and keep it to a minimum as a DM but sometimes occasionally needed at the table.

Cell Phones, Tablets Etc

Like it or not everything is connected. I keep my phone open for emergencies. Or to look up a rule on the SRD. I will put my phone to the side. Even put the screen facing down. Fuck no I'm not giving it to the DM.

Not reading the rules

While I don't expect either a player or DM to know all the rules. Not to mention I'm not being paid to do so and doing it on my free time. I do expect everyone to know the basics. As well to know what their character can do in terms of bonuses. Flipping through the core book to see what the Bless spell can do after having used it over and over again. Not knowing the bonuses to strike of the character means one loses their turn.

I can't be bothered to make a character given a premade one than complain about it types.

Fine don't want to make a character than your getting a pre-made character. Don't like him too bad next time make a character. I'm not going to waste valuable game time to do so.

Personal Hygiene and Food

I'm no expecting clean shaven with a new haircut for a job look. I do want my players not to smell worse than roadkill. While having made at least a token effort on their appearence. As well get some sleep before showing up. I used to game with two players who play MMOS until the early hours of the morning. Barely get any sleep then pass out at the game. If you can't be bothered to show up well rested don't show up at all. Everyone at one time or another has to pitch in to buy food. Out of a job and out of luck finding one no problem. Don't claim to be broke and not able to put money in for food. Then show with a new rpg sorucebook at every game. Makes one look like a cheap bastard and will at most be given one slice of pizza.

Quote from: Reckall;989957Not reading the Player's Handbook or the equivalent.

I have lost count of the number of players who just assumed it was the DM's job to know the rules and remind to them that their Paladin could use "Lay on Hands" ("Lay on what? What is it?") before the Ranger croaked.

Well, it is the ref's job to know the rules and the player's job to describe what he's doing. I've played many games where the players haven't read any of the rules and just tell me their actions and roll the dice.

Quote from: Dumarest;990084Well, it is the ref's job to know the rules and the player's job to describe what he's doing. I've played many games where the players haven't read any of the rules and just tell me their actions and roll the dice.

+1 to this.

Quote from: Dumarest;990084Well, it is the ref's job to know the rules and the player's job to describe what he's doing. I've played many games where the players haven't read any of the rules and just tell me their actions and roll the dice.

Depends on where the info is located. If you've got an attack matrix on your screen, fine. But if the modifiers are all on the player's sheet, I expect him to not need me to tell him to finally fucking write down "+5 attack/1d8+3 damage" in the little box where he's supposed to put it.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;990090Depends on where the info is located. If you've got an attack matrix on your screen, fine. But if the modifiers are all on the player's sheet, I expect him to not need me to tell him to finally fucking write down "+5 attack/1d8+3 damage" in the little box where he's supposed to put it.

This, a thousand times. I'm fucking amazed how many players need to be told every fucking session that yes, right there, in that little box is your base attack bonus, and yet, 10 minutes later when they make an attack don't know what to add to the dice roll, and can't ever fucking learn that it's all there on your fucking character sheet. Grown adults incapable of basic 1st grade level math. Longsword @+5 for d8+2 DMG shouldn't be a cryptic equation for people.

Being an asshole.

99 44/100% of all RPG problems could be cured by "don't be an asshole."

Quote from: fearsomepirate;990090Depends on where the info is located. If you've got an attack matrix on your screen, fine. But if the modifiers are all on the player's sheet, I expect him to not need me to tell him to finally fucking write down "+5 attack/1d8+3 damage" in the little box where he's supposed to put it.

Then he doesn't get his +5 or whatever. Sooner or later he'll write it down.

Quote from: Dumarest;990102Then he doesn't get his +5 or whatever. Sooner or later he'll write it down.

It doesn't help when the damn character sheet looks like it was written in Linear A after being transliterated from German to Mayan.  There is such a thing as "more information than can be comfortably assimilated."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;990107It doesn't help when the damn character sheet looks like it was written in Linear A after being transliterated from German to Mayan.  There is such a thing as "more information than can be comfortably assimilated."

Well, yeah, that's why I personally prefer a game where I can fit everything I need to know about my character on a 3x5 card.

At worst, I'll accept a Call of Cthulhu-style character sheet because even though there's a lot of information, it all fits on side of a piece of paper and all the necessary formulae and what not are right there where they need to be.

Not that I want to go back to it, but there is something to be said for a hand-written character sheet on a piece of notebook paper.  It's hard to miss where the important boxes and labels are when you had to write them yourself while rolling up the character.

Quote from: Voros;989872When I was in my late teens and early twenties some of the things that drove me away from RPGs were powergamers and creeps who used the game to act out their barely repressed sadism and sexual misery.

Totally with you on this.

Quote from: Voros;989872When I was in my late teens and early twenties some of the things that drove me away from RPGs were powergamers and creeps who used the game to act out their barely repressed sadism and sexual misery.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;990100Being an asshole.

99 44/100% of all RPG problems could be cured by "don't be an asshole."

You win the thread.

Quote from: Dumarest;990084Well, it is the ref's job to know the rules and the player's job to describe what he's doing. I've played many games where the players haven't read any of the rules and just tell me their actions and roll the dice.

True, the ref should know the rules - or he couldn't be a ref in the first place (if you don't know the rules needed to manage an elven thief, for example, how are you supposed to manage such an NPC?)

What I'm talking about, however, are those players (and I met many) who think it's the DM's job to remind them what they can do, and how. I had a player who choose to play a human ranger in my 3.5 D&D campaign, only to never bother to recall that he had the "tracking" ability - or how it worked, for what matters. Latter, I discovered how he always mistook "disguise" for "hide" - and always rolled his hide checks by adding his "disguise" modifier (maybe he disguised himself so to look like a small tree, or a stalagmite - dunno...)

What surprises me is how reading the rules, at least the general ones and those who pertain your character, should be a pleasure, not a job. D&D 3.5 is not the easiest of systems, but I always had a lot of fun in discovery what my character could do, and how (I also love a lot the fluff parts, but I'm digressing). The DM is supposed to be busy running the adventure and the NPCs, not to be overburdened by the need to explain how your alchemical fire flask works or that you have bought two in the first place ---> multiply the above for everything inherent to a player's character. Knowing and running your character is your job, not the DM's.

I had a cleric player who never remembered to add his charisma bonus to his "Turn Undead" check. When I grew suspicious and checked, he just said "I can do this? Where is it written?"

And what about that ranger who spent tons of points in the "Geography" and "Nature" skill, but he never used the +2 bonus on Survival checks that the skills granted after 5 ranks (+4 when you reached 5 ranks in both)?

Even worse, I had a player who, after two years, still floundered when asked to do a save check. I said "please, do a Fortitude save check at DC18", and she always started to look around her character sheets, checking things like the skills list and her weapon bonuses, and, in a general sense, being unable to find where her Fortitude save bonus was (let alone remember what it was) It was, to put it mildly, depressing. True, either I or other players ended up pointing where it was - but time was lost, the flow of the game was broken, and, again, it shouldn't have been our job.

[She, BTW, often floundered when asked to do ANY other check ("My total attack bonus with a bow? Where is it?") except skill checks. Maybe I'm being unjust, and she suffered from a form of dyslexia (she taught literature in high-school just fine, however). I never knew. However, there are remedies: highlight in various colours the things you never remember, for example, or WRITE YOUR SAVE BONUSES IN BIG LETTERS on a separate sheet of paper, if you are really desperate.]

The positive thing is that there is a punishment of sorts in all of this. If a ranger "leads the party into the wildlands!" and then he forgets all the rules meant for his class to do this better than others, the party will be in big trouble fast - and he will probably end being physically beaten up by the other players (relieving, in a way, the DM from the same burden...)

Yeah, because being a dick to players having trouble with the rules is SUCH a good idea.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;990617Yeah, because being a dick to players having trouble with the rules is SUCH a good idea.

There is a difference between "being a dick to players having trouble with the rules" and not even knowing what you can do.

I fully agree that creating your character with a piece of paper and a pencil helps - because it is the best form of remembering and assimilating things. And there is nothing wrong in forgetting, misinterpreting or having trouble with the rules: the ref and the other players should be there to help.

However, if a character proudly shouts "I have Tracking! I track the orc raiders!" - and then you discover how he never even bothered to read how Tracking works because "it is the the ref who is supposed to explain the rule to me!", either the dude reads the rule FAST or he doesn't track. Again, should he be confused and uncertain about the rule, both the ref and the other players will be there to help. But first READ WHAT THE DAMN CHARACTER YOU CHOOSE IN THE FIRST PLACE CAN ACTUALLY DO.

Be sure that if I do play a Star Elf Sorcerer in a Forgotten Realms setting, with regional/racial feats coming from a supplement (I'm making this up) I will be the first one who tells the ref what extra/special rules do apply.

I really can't see any other way to be a player - except in those games which do use unusual systems.

If he attempts to track the orc raiders, isn't his job to say how he does it and then the ref determines the result either via dice or other methods? I'm not seeing why the player needs to know the rules for that. Maybe you can give a better example.

Quote from: Dumarest;990624If he attempts to track the orc raiders, isn't his job to say how he does it and then the ref determines the result either via dice or other methods? I'm not seeing why the player needs to know the rules for that. Maybe you can give a better example.

Likewise.

And as referee, the LAST thing I want is some player dumping an elaborate set of rules on me from some obscure supplement in the middle of a game.

You'd think that all this stuff is just common sense by now... Especially, if you've been playing for years.

But I'm amazed at how many of these pitfalls people still fall into. I'm sure I still make mistakes as a GM but with a lot less frequency, I hope.

Running a game crunchier than the audience is willing, or able, to chew. This applies to both settings (high concept) and system mechanics.

Knowing your audience is always the priority step, because real people come first. Hey, trust me, I'm sad that there's many RPGs and Campaigns I doubt I'll ever run because I don't have the right players for it. But with what I do offer I try to dial up or down depending on my player's capacity. (That and periodic post-game critiques from them to see where we can realign onto the same page.)

Quote from: Opaopajr;990726Running a game crunchier than the audience is willing, or able, to chew. This applies to both settings (high concept) and system mechanics.

Knowing your audience is always the priority step, because real people come first. Hey, trust me, I'm sad that there's many RPGs and Campaigns I doubt I'll ever run because I don't have the right players for it. But with what I do offer I try to dial up or down depending on my player's capacity. (That and periodic post-game critiques from them to see where we can realign onto the same page.)

This.

The crew I've got is always up for d6 Star Wars, but I really have to pick and choose players if I want to run Traveller because the system and most settings will kill off murder-hoboes.

Quote from: Voros;989872When I was in my late teens and early twenties some of the things that drove me away from RPGs were powergamers and creeps who used the game to act out their barely repressed sadism and sexual misery.

Yeah this. But I was in my late 30s the last time I saw it. Still bad.

Quote from: Opaopajr;990726Running a game crunchier than the audience is willing, or able, to chew. This applies to both settings (high concept) and system mechanics.

Knowing your audience is always the priority step, because real people come first. Hey, trust me, I'm sad that there's many RPGs and Campaigns I doubt I'll ever run because I don't have the right players for it. But with what I do offer I try to dial up or down depending on my player's capacity. (That and periodic post-game critiques from them to see where we can realign onto the same page.)

This is why I logged on tonight.

I'm about to try and help my local library start a RPG club, first session next week. I would prefer DCC, feel B/X is the easiest to gronk, but settled on running 5E because it is most accessible to the public right now.

It is hard to judge the level of crunch when you have no idea what you are going to have as a player base. Like you said I will have to dial it up or down on the fly.

I just got the 5E PHB today and after a few hours reading I would cut out a quarter of the class/race options for a home game. No way I am doing character creation at the library group, definitely using pre-gens.

But I also realise I might get some experienced players that want to bring in their own brews with more bells and whistles so I may let some substitute characters come in on the second session.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;990745This is why I logged on tonight.

I'm about to try and help my local library start a RPG club, first session next week. I would prefer DCC, feel B/X is the easiest to gronk, but settled on running 5E because it is most accessible to the public right now.

It is hard to judge the level of crunch when you have no idea what you are going to have as a player base. Like you said I will have to dial it up or down on the fly.

I just got the 5E PHB today and after a few hours reading I would cut out a quarter of the class/race options for a home game. No way I am doing character creation at the library group, definitely using pre-gens.

But I also realise I might get some experienced players that want to bring in their own brews with more bells and whistles so I may let some substitute characters come in on the second session.

If the GM knows a system well enough, and can translate the mechanics into and out of prose descriptions, then players who have never played an RPG can play in a game the GM is running crunchily. I have done a lot of this with TFT and GURPS, even often with players who know the rules really well. Player says what they do in natural language. GM uses the rules and translates the results into natural language.

Read-aloud (i.e. "boxed text") is usually a bad idea.  If the text is more than two paragraphs, it's almost always a terrible idea.

Being unprepared, as a GM.  You need to know the rules and the adventure well-enough to keep things running smoothly.  Obviously, allowances are made to accommodate unusual player actions.  Handling that kind of stuff just takes experience.

As a player, I don't expect you to start the campaign knowing the rules.  But at least pay attention - let's not have a twenty-second pause every time I ask you to make a saving throw, seven sessions deep.  You're hurting my feelings.

Treating the rules as scripture is bad.  This means time wasted by a GM trawling through rulebooks and supplements, and rules-lawyering by players.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;990745This is why I logged on tonight.

I'm about to try and help my local library start a RPG club, first session next week. I would prefer DCC, feel B/X is the easiest to gronk, but settled on running 5E because it is most accessible to the public right now.

It is hard to judge the level of crunch when you have no idea what you are going to have as a player base. Like you said I will have to dial it up or down on the fly.

I just got the 5E PHB today and after a few hours reading I would cut out a quarter of the class/race options for a home game. No way I am doing character creation at the library group, definitely using pre-gens.

But I also realise I might get some experienced players that want to bring in their own brews with more bells and whistles so I may let some substitute characters come in on the second session.

As a suggestion, check out the D&D 5E Basic Game. It is a free download from WotC at this link. (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules)

Players/Dms/Rpg Companies that need badmouth a rpg to sell/run/play another rpg

Nothing screams Rpg heartbreaker to me as soon as someone insults another rpg to push another rpg. If one can't sell a rpg on it's own merits and needs to insult another rpg to get me interested. Guess what I stopped being interested and it shows me that your not someone I want to run a game for or play with.

Quote from: sureshot;991227Players/Dms/Rpg Companies that need badmouth a rpg to sell/run/play another rpg

Nothing screams Rpg heartbreaker to me as soon as someone insults another rpg to push another rpg. If one can't sell a rpg on it's own merits and needs to insult another rpg to get me interested. Guess what I stopped being interested and it shows me that your not someone I want to run a game for or play with.

Isn't that basically what goes on on RPG forums? Some weirdo with an insane level of aversion to the most random and benign thing (omg, I just can't play a game where rolling low is good) goes on a non-sequitir-fueled rant how everything is broken and needs his to be playing his favorite game to fix it?

It's one thing to do it on a forum. It's another to to it when trying to sell the game face to face. Many times in person I walked away because inevitably the person trying to promote the rpg ended up insulting another to promote (usually D&D in most cases). I happen to like D&D so insulting a rpg I like well your not going to win me over. I remember walking away from a potential rpg purchase because while they did not mention D&D by name they took cheap shots at D&D on the back cover to sell it to buyer.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;989634"You can try anything" should work like this:

Player: I pray to Heironeous to send a flight of Planars to help us through this level 3 dungeon!
DM: You fervently pray for ten minutes, but nothing happens.
Player: Hey, you said I can always try.
DM: I did. I didn't say there would always be a non-zero chance of success.

That's how it works, yes. Who does it in a different way:)?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;989822But how do you know when it's #Illusionism? :D

Observing people is a basic part of #Communication.

QuoteBut #Railroads are incredibly popular!

Not with me.
And of course, that's the only thing that matters in my book;).

Railroading is certainly one of the bad ones.

Quote from: RPGPundit;991729Railroading is certainly one of the bad ones.

Unless it's a shiny new monorail! ;)

My players want a straight up "go here, do that" as close to a railroad as I can bring myself to give them.  It is so hard for me to run that way.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Rolls dice like:

*Shake, shake, shake & Shake, shake & Shake and... Shake, shake, shake; throw.*

"If you shake it more than three times, you're masturbating."

Roll dice behind your hand and scoop them up quickly. Occasionally "missing" a roll, just to show you're not cheating.

Quote from: DavetheLost;992112Roll dice behind your hand and scoop them up quickly. Occasionally "missing" a roll, just to show you're not cheating.

At that point the referee says "No, roll them openly so we can all see them."

Quote from: DavetheLost;992112Roll dice behind your hand and scoop them up quickly. Occasionally "missing" a roll, just to show you're not cheating.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1583[/ATTACH]

Quote from: J.L. Duncan;992068Rolls dice like:

*Shake, shake, shake & Shake, shake & Shake and... Shake, shake, shake; throw.*

You forgot the second part: *throws like a moron, dice goes flying under the couch, takes 5 minutes to fish it out, starts to shake again*

Quote from: RPGPundit;992821You forgot the second part: *throws like a moron, dice goes flying under the couch, takes 5 minutes to fish it out, starts to shake again*

Made even worse it it's a dice pool game and the guy has to rebuild the dice pool from scratch so the ritual can begin anew.

You know, they do make dice cups for idiots like that. (https://www.amazon.com/Bundle-4-Professional-Dice-Cups/dp/B0045KH568)

Quote from: jeff37923;992894You know, they do make dice cups for idiots like that. (https://www.amazon.com/Bundle-4-Professional-Dice-Cups/dp/B0045KH568)

They make helmets for some of them too, but it doesn't mean I want them at my table.:p

Quote from: HappyDaze;992926They make helmets for some of them too, but it doesn't mean I want them at my table.:p

Point taken, but I've gotten a lot of good use out of my dice cups.

I built a dice tray using a picture frame and some felt from a Youtube video for that exact purpose.

The worst roleplaying practice is anything you like that I don't.

Quote from: jeff37923;992938Point taken, but I've gotten a lot of good use out of my dice cups.

No doubt you have. But the people who really need them never do use them.

Quote from: jeff37923;992894You know, they do make dice cups for idiots like that. (https://www.amazon.com/Bundle-4-Professional-Dice-Cups/dp/B0045KH568)

I have some players who routinely manage to throw it wild even when using a dice box.

Quote from: RPGPundit;993371I have some players who routinely manage to throw it wild even when using a dice box.

You need a bigger dice box, empty boxes from shoes tend to work fine:).

I've only had this one once or twice.

I've never minded people watching a game if they are curious or whatever. Like maybe someone who was a bit shy and wanted to see how it's done before committing themselves.

One chap, who was a friend of one of the players, didn't feel like playing that night. Fair enough... but he couldn't keep his gob shut. He was cracking jokes and talking over people who were trying to pay the game. It was obnoxious...

The die falls off the table, it's a miss, period.
The die falls off the table side across from you, it's a critical fumble, period.

Funny, I never seem to have any wild dice problems from players.  :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;993371I have some players who routinely manage to throw it wild even when using a dice box.

Some people just really are incredibly uncoordinated.  Throwing it into the miniatures and knocking them ass over teakettle is "fun" too.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;993509Some people just really are incredibly uncoordinated.  Throwing it into the miniatures and knocking them ass over teakettle is "fun" too.

Oh, every miniature I have to place back up, I also add in an additional enemy.  If there was no enemy, and they knocked out a PC, "Whoop, surprise!".

I have literally ZERO die probems at the table now, going on decades.  It's just the oddest thing.

Apparently, when there's consequences, normal, healthy players magically no longer roll dice like they're having Grand Mal seizures.

I have often run for players who didn't know the rules in detail and I've run for a couple who don't know them at all. "Talk for your character and tell us, out of character, what your character is trying to do" works fine. I have one player like that in my Thursday night game now. When she played a magician in a different campaign, it was more of a problem.

Quote from: CRKrueger;993523Apparently, when there's consequences, normal, healthy players magically no longer roll dice like they're having Grand Mal seizures.

Gawdamn you, Mean Green - I laughed so hard I re-strained a sore oblique.

Now I gotta go swing a fungo for two hours - thanks a fucking bunch for that. :p

People with money making fun of people without; them "joking" about making slaves out of other players to "improve" their quality of life; and when they're tech bros talking to black women.

I kinda think that's a bad practice, but at least up around Silicon Valley North here, it gets all passes and a lot of back-bench applause.

Quote from: kk7;993771People with money making fun of people without; them "joking" about making slaves out of other players to "improve" their quality of life; and when they're tech bros talking to black women.

I kinda think that's a bad practice, but at least up around Silicon Valley North here, it gets all passes and a lot of back-bench applause.

And you play with these people?

Quote from: kk7;993771People with money making fun of people without; them "joking" about making slaves out of other players to "improve" their quality of life; and when they're tech bros talking to black women.

I kinda think that's a bad practice, but at least up around Silicon Valley North here, it gets all passes and a lot of back-bench applause.

Here in the SF Bay Area East Bay that's considered a passive aggressive douche nozzle. Why would you play with that sort of bitterness? Life's too short for ultra light beer. :)

Quote from: CRKrueger;993523Oh, every miniature I have to place back up, I also add in an additional enemy.  If there was no enemy, and they knocked out a PC, "Whoop, surprise!".

I have literally ZERO die probems at the table now, going on decades.  It's just the oddest thing.

Apparently, when there's consequences, normal, healthy players magically no longer roll dice like they're having Grand Mal seizures.

I like that idea, but don't you ever find those kinds of OOC meta-mechanics get in the way of immersion?

Quote from: kk7;993771People with money making fun of people without; them "joking" about making slaves out of other players to "improve" their quality of life; and when they're tech bros talking to black women.

I kinda think that's a bad practice, but at least up around Silicon Valley North here, it gets all passes and a lot of back-bench applause.

Don't play with assholes.

Quote from: Baulderstone;994005I like that idea, but don't you ever find those kinds of OOC meta-mechanics get in the way of immersion?

Some idiot bowling the dice into the figures and scattering them like tenpins already shoots the hell out of immersion.

Quote from: DavetheLost;989946Coming to the game completely unprepared, no paper, pencil, dice, character sheet, etc.  I now collect all the character sheets into a folder at the end of each session, just to be sure they are available for the next.

Not paying attention to the game. Never being ready when called upon for your action. "Huh? You're on intitiative 3? But I was a 6"

Bullying other players at the table, including using your character to the threaten theirs.

Explicitly detailing your power gore rape violence fantasies when noone else at teh table wants to hear them.

Constantly interupting the GM with questions that are not relevant to what is happening in the game. e.g. interupting mid-combat to ask how a special ability works for the new character you are rolling up. That is just rude to everyone else at the table.

You guys game with some real assholes.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;990100Being an asshole.

99 44/100% of all RPG problems could be cured by "don't be an asshole."

More importantly, don't play with them. In anything, not just RPGs. The guy who argues his die was "cocked" if there is so much as a sheet of paper under part of the die and demands a re-roll is every bit as much of an asshole as the putz who whines that he was interfered with every time he drops the ball.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;990107It doesn't help when the damn character sheet looks like it was written in Linear A after being transliterated from German to Mayan.  There is such a thing as "more information than can be comfortably assimilated."

This burns my ass like a 3' flame not only as a DM who has to decipher shitty handwriting, but years ago as a player, I got stuck with the job of Scribe because two players wrote illegibly and worse still, their character sheets were always a fucking mess. My penmanship has always been good because my teachers made clear that if they couldn't read your assignment, you got a zero. I only wish the DM back then had the same rule: "I can't read this equipment list? You have no equipment".

Quote from: DavetheLost;992112Roll dice behind your hand and scoop them up quickly. Occasionally "missing" a roll, just to show you're not cheating.

I remember one asshole many years ago who insisted that his all-18s wanked-out superhero with an arsenal of magic items was rolled-up honestly and should be accepted as-is by our group. Our DM's response (GTFOH) should have been enough to shame this guy. Finally, he agreed to roll up a new PC, but insisted he be allowed to roll the dice in another room. He then pitched a fit when we didn't go for it. This was a grown man in a room full of 14-15 year olds.

There was another winner who used loaded dice -high quality loaded dice that had everyone fooled until he used them a few times too often. The DM snatched the dice and used them to roll attacks from a bunch of bandits on the asshole's character. Wouldn't you know it, but they all hit, doing maximum damage (both his d20 and several d6 were loaded) and killed him. He threw a tantrum and the DM threw the dice at him and everyone (including spectators) split their sides laughing, chanting "cheater, CHEATER!"

Quote from: Elfdart;994067I remember one asshole many years ago who insisted that his all-18s wanked-out superhero with an arsenal of magic items was rolled-up honestly and should be accepted as-is by our group. Our DM's response (GTFOH) should have been enough to shame this guy. Finally, he agreed to roll up a new PC, but insisted he be allowed to roll the dice in another room. He then pitched a fit when we didn't go for it. This was a grown man in a room full of 14-15 year olds.

There was another winner who used loaded dice -high quality loaded dice that had everyone fooled until he used them a few times too often. The DM snatched the dice and used them to roll attacks from a bunch of bandits on the asshole's character. Wouldn't you know it, but they all hit, doing maximum damage (both his d20 and several d6 were loaded) and killed him. He threw a tantrum and the DM threw the dice at him and everyone (including spectators) split their sides laughing, chanting "cheater, CHEATER!"

Good grief, it's a friggin' game...I have luckily avoided players who think there are winners and losers in RPGs.

I remember we once handed a guy 4d6 to roll up a character with, 2 were trick dice, one was all "2"s and one was all "5"s. We pointed this out to him after he claimed to have rolled an "18".  He at least fessed up and was suitably contrite. Wargamers "Average" dice, numbered 2,3,3,4,4,5 can serve a similar purpose.

One worst prctice that I am glad to see a lot less of is the profusion of "save or die" and "instal-death, no save, no warning" situations that littered early games. The first generation of Tunnels & Trolls solos are full of doors that lead to certain and inescapable death if opened. Examples of play for games like Gamma World feature death by unavoidable laser if the wrong door is opened, the blinking light over the door is supposed to be sufficient warning.  I don't mind PC death, just arbitrary PC death.

Quote from: DavetheLost;994090One worst prctice that I am glad to see a lot less of is the profusion of "save or die" and "instal-death, no save, no warning" situations that littered early games. The first generation of Tunnels & Trolls solos are full of doors that lead to certain and inescapable death if opened. Examples of play for games like Gamma World feature death by unavoidable laser if the wrong door is opened, the blinking light over the door is supposed to be sufficient warning.  I don't mind PC death, just arbitrary PC death.

I agree. Even from a reasonably old school perspective, bypassing HP negates the resource management of a dungeon crawl. Having a laser trap knock you down to 3 HP when you are down on the 3rd level of a bunker is terrifying situation you now need to get out of. Or having the laser trap kill you because you were already at 3 HP when you opened the door is also engaging with the game. Having your character just die is kind of boring.

It's something we wargamers expect.  History is full of people who just were killed for no good reason.

Quote from: Baulderstone;994105I agree. Even from a reasonably old school perspective, bypassing HP negates the resource management of a dungeon crawl. Having a laser trap knock you down to 3 HP when you are down on the 3rd level of a bunker is terrifying situation you now need to get out of. Or having the laser trap kill you because you were already at 3 HP when you opened the door is also engaging with the game. Having your character just die is kind of boring.

I have to say one of my more enjoyable D&D experiences was my 6th level fighter trying to get out of the dungeon alive after he ended up on his own with only 3 hit points.

I hadn't thought of the question in that context, but I do think it's more interesting if the laser trap knocks you down to 3 HP if you were at full hit points* and kills you if you are 3HP or below** rather than simply frying you or causing a save or die roll.

* or some approximation thereof e.g. >50% hit points, more than 12 hit points, etc.

** or at some low numbered threshold.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;994109It's something we wargamers expect.  History is full of people who just were killed for no good reason.

Sure, but you can still be killed for no good reason by actually using the hit point system in D&D.

If you want to lean on realism, save vs. death is frequently used for poisons, and poisoning is rarely a case of being dead or being fine. It's usually a case of being dead or being in such bad shape that you wish you were dead. Granted HP aren't a perfect model for that either, but they are better than save vs. death.

Quote from: Baulderstone;994005I like that idea, but don't you ever find those kinds of OOC meta-mechanics get in the way of immersion?

Oh definitely, for a session or two it might.  After that, everyone's self-induced cerebral palsy corrects itself and it's life as usual only without damaged miniatures and die caltrops all over the floor. :D

Quote from: Black Vulmea;993641Gawdamn you, Mean Green - I laughed so hard I re-strained a sore oblique.

Now I gotta go swing a fungo for two hours - thanks a fucking bunch for that. :p

Ouch...but...what doesn't kill you...so, you're welcome. :D

Quote from: Baulderstone;994164Granted HP aren't a perfect model for that either, but they are better than save vs. death.

Better?  No.  More to your taste?  Yes.

Never LARP a sex-scene.*

*unless it's a solo campaign. (a)

(a) with yourself

Someone that uses the dreaded 'X-card'.

Quote from: Elfdart;994067I remember one asshole many years ago who insisted that his all-18s wanked-out superhero with an arsenal of magic items was rolled-up honestly and should be accepted as-is by our group. Our DM's response (GTFOH) should have been enough to shame this guy. Finally, he agreed to roll up a new PC, but insisted he be allowed to roll the dice in another room. He then pitched a fit when we didn't go for it. This was a grown man in a room full of 14-15 year olds.

There was another winner who used loaded dice -high quality loaded dice that had everyone fooled until he used them a few times too often. The DM snatched the dice and used them to roll attacks from a bunch of bandits on the asshole's character. Wouldn't you know it, but they all hit, doing maximum damage (both his d20 and several d6 were loaded) and killed him. He threw a tantrum and the DM threw the dice at him and everyone (including spectators) split their sides laughing, chanting "cheater, CHEATER!"

Kudos to the GM:D!

Quote from: Baulderstone;994164Sure, but you can still be killed for no good reason by actually using the hit point system in D&D.

If you want to lean on realism, save vs. death is frequently used for poisons, and poisoning is rarely a case of being dead or being fine. It's usually a case of being dead or being in such bad shape that you wish you were dead. Granted HP aren't a perfect model for that either, but they are better than save vs. death.

I have to point out that the same can be achieved by save vs death, 3d6 damage on a success;).
Personally, I have no strong feelings regarding the insta-death vs death by HP loss, because both can be made well or can be made to suck, but I find a combined variant would be more to my taste from a purely aesthetic reason.

Our group is a pretty close knit one, three of us have been playing together for 25 years, with the rest being well over a decade. Any bad practices have been worked out a long time ago. I was guilty of meta gaming especially when I started as felt I needed to show my more experienced friends that "Hey I know this now too" instead of getting into my character and playing him. A first level bungling magic user who has one spell is actually a lot of fun played as such. My buddy Tim has Rules lawyering tendencies, but our DM always sets us straight and keeps the game moving along. The fact that we only get together once a year for a three day, 36 hour marathon helps keep us focused on playing the game and having fun.

Quote from: Elfdart;994064You guys game with some real assholes.

That's my impression too. Gotta nuke the assholes.

I've had the RARE cheater and wanker at con games, but thankfully my home games since high school haven't had meaningful player drama.

Quote from: Elfdart;994064I only wish the DM back then had the same rule: "I can't read this equipment list? You have no equipment".

I had that rule in high school!! We had fucknuts who wrote scribble, then read that their scribble was actually powerful magic items. Thus the rule was if the DM can't read it, you don't have it.

And lo and behold...typed up characters sheets began to show up at the table!

Quote from: The Exploited.;994567Someone that uses the dreaded 'X-card'.

I almost wish a player would try that bullshit at my table.

I'd run up their therapy bill by thousands.

Quote from: AsenRG;993387You need a bigger dice box, empty boxes from shoes tend to work fine:).

I once brought the guy a Dalek dice-roller from a trip, but the other players took it away from him because he wouldn't stop making dalek noises.

Quote from: RPGPundit;995624I once brought the guy a Dalek dice-roller from a trip, but the other players took it away from him because he wouldn't stop making dalek noises.

What are the odds of you playing Dr. Who at the time, I wonder:D? Well, knowing you, I'd guess they are approximately zero.
Also, your player needs more self-control, which would resolve all his dice problems;).

Quote from: The Exploited.;994567Someone that uses the dreaded 'X-card'.

What's an "X-card"?

It is a card you hold up at a table is the GM or other player start to squick you out. Not as big a deal as so many claim, from what I've seen a lot of advocates of its use (eg. Kate Bullock) are talking about games that include sexual violence and sex in RP. I wouldn't be into those subjects at a table but if you're going to have them seems reasonable to have something like an Xcard.

Quote from: Voros;996129It is a card you hold up at a table is the GM or other player start to squick you out. Not as big a deal as so many claim, from what I've seen a lot of advocates of its use (eg. Kate Bullock) are talking about games that include sexual violence and sex in RP. I wouldn't be into those subjects at a table but if you're going to have them seems reasonable to have something like an Xcard.

Thanks. Never heard of that, nor the word "squick." I've never played a game where that would be necessary, and ideally never will. I'm not interested in that stuff in an RPG.

Hadn't heard of the X-card, but it seems reasonable. I try not to play with people or in the sort of games where it would be needed though.

I'm only discomforted by the ritualism in "holding up a card", instead of talking with your fellow gamers and saying "whoa, knock it off". You know, the way people who are friends, or at least are friendly with each other, do -- rather than taking autism as the default mode of human interaction.

A couple people have posted replies along the lines of "why would you play with people like ___?" -- which is kind of missing the issue. No, I don't play with those gamers, and neither do you. We still encounter them, sometimes a lot; and they're still out there, gaming, oblivious to our sensibleness. They're part of our hobby and part of our practices -- best or worst.

Personally, edition warring is the worst to me.

You do you.  You happen to enjoy an older or newer version of the game?  That's cool, just don't belittle others who don't care for it.

Quote from: kk7;996224I'm only discomforted by the ritualism in "holding up a card", instead of talking with your fellow gamers and saying "whoa, knock it off". You know, the way people who are friends, or at least are friendly with each other, do -- rather than taking autism as the default mode of human interaction.

A couple people have posted replies along the lines of "why would you play with people like ___?" -- which is kind of missing the issue. No, I don't play with those gamers, and neither do you. We still encounter them, sometimes a lot; and they're still out there, gaming, oblivious to our sensibleness. They're part of our hobby and part of our practices -- best or worst.

The thing is, for some people, if you are going to push things that far (whatever their boundaries are), they can be quickly rendered speechless and unable to respond in a timely, rational manner.  Something is likely to build up and burst out all at once, probably with ill effects.  Plus, having the card as an out lets some people relax that otherwise wouldn't.  It's a very effective counseling technique to substitute a simple, planned physical movement for speech.  It's the same way that they are taught to simply walk away from certain situations rather than try to engage verbally.

Me, I don't want to play a game as a counseling session.  As soon as someone said they needed an X card, maybe, to handle something being in the game, my immediate response would be, "OK, that's not going to be in the game at all.  I'll see to it.  So that you can relax and have fun the way we want to."

Quote from: kk7;996224I'm only discomforted by the ritualism in "holding up a card", instead of talking with your fellow gamers and saying "whoa, knock it off". You know, the way people who are friends, or at least are friendly with each other, do -- rather than taking autism as the default mode of human interaction.

A couple people have posted replies along the lines of "why would you play with people like ___?" -- which is kind of missing the issue. No, I don't play with those gamers, and neither do you. We still encounter them, sometimes a lot; and they're still out there, gaming, oblivious to our sensibleness. They're part of our hobby and part of our practices -- best or worst.

Sometimes these games are played at Cons so not everyone at the table would be friends. Plus Steven Mitchell's excellent point above.

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The GM shouldn't make suggestions or point to conclusions

e.g. "Well, there's an empty space at the eastern end of the hideout, maybe you should wait for an ambush there... or something like that"

That's a big one for me. Part of the fun is figuring things out and maybe even doing them in a way the GM didn't expect.

Justin makes some good points about the X card.

In the end though, I still believe in handling your own shit.  If you don't think you can sit at a table and game with strangers without being uncomfortable, triggered, whatever, then don't do it.  Stick to gaming with friends that know your issues and respect them.  Maybe have some FLGS sessions with mostly friends and a couple new people and acclimate.  The end goal of anyone who has experienced trauma is to be able to re-integrate with the world without the world making concessions for you...because it mostly won't.

The "subject matter ban" aspect aside, I can see the use as an immersion-keeper, a quick "back on track", "joke-time's over" type of thing.  Of course, that's all emergent use, the card wasn't created for that reason.

Quote from: CRKrueger;996490The "subject matter ban" aspect aside, I can see the use as an immersion-keeper, a quick "back on track", "joke-time's over" type of thing.  Of course, that's all emergent use, the card wasn't created for that reason.

I've used an egg timer for that (from the GM seat). I'm about to try it out as a player option sitting in the middle of the table.  It's worked very well for me as, "You guys are just horsing around too much.  Wind it down before the 3 minutes of sand runs out, and let's get back to the game."  I've found 3 minutes to be an almost perfect transition for that kind of thing, as it doesn't shut people off completely.  Plus, the sand ticking (if you get a big enough timer) is very mesmerizing.  :)

Quote from: Dumarest;996117What's an "X-card"?

It's the RPG equivalent of a safe word.

Quote from: kk7;996224I'm only discomforted by the ritualism in "holding up a card", instead of talking with your fellow gamers and saying "whoa, knock it off". You know, the way people who are friends, or at least are friendly with each other, do -- rather than taking autism as the default mode of human interaction.

A couple people have posted replies along the lines of "why would you play with people like ___?" -- which is kind of missing the issue. No, I don't play with those gamers, and neither do you. We still encounter them, sometimes a lot; and they're still out there, gaming, oblivious to our sensibleness. They're part of our hobby and part of our practices -- best or worst.

The reason it might be better than simply talking about it is probably because saying "no, I don't like that" or "my husband might see where you did that" might be misinterpreted as something your character said. People have to respect your boundaries but they do not have to respect your character's boundaries.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;989634One of the worst practices is the "Rule of Cool" rubric to let players get away with doing "creative" things that break the game and are nearly impossible to walk back, like letting a player use Create or Destroy Water to dessicate an enemy after a cut. Congratulations, idiot, you have now given a 2nd-level character Power Word: Kill. Same thing goes with "You can try anything!" meaning "I will set a meaningful target DC and give a minimum 5% chance for any nonsense you come up with to happen!"

Isn't this the entire foundation of OSR style play though?

Also the #RuleOfCool deals with things that are cool, not clever or smart.

Quote from: CRKrueger;993413The die falls off the table, it's a miss, period.
The die falls off the table side across from you, it's a critical fumble, period.

Funny, I never seem to have any wild dice problems from players.  :D

Quote from: CRKrueger;993523Oh, every miniature I have to place back up, I also add in an additional enemy.  If there was no enemy, and they knocked out a PC, "Whoop, surprise!".

I have literally ZERO die probems at the table now, going on decades.  It's just the oddest thing.

Apparently, when there's consequences, normal, healthy players magically no longer roll dice like they're having Grand Mal seizures.

Weird how rules like this can modify behavior ;)

Quote from: The Exploited.;994567Someone that uses the dreaded 'X-card'.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;996233if you are going to push things that far (whatever their boundaries are), they can be quickly rendered speechless and unable to respond in a timely, rational manner.  Something is likely to build up and burst out all at once, probably with ill effects.  Plus, having the card as an out lets some people relax that otherwise wouldn't.  It's a very effective counseling technique to substitute a simple, planned physical movement for speech.  It's the same way that they are taught to simply walk away from certain situations rather than try to engage verbally.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;996437When correctly implemented, the purpose of the X-card is to minimize the disruption to the flow of game play. It provides a signal separate from the primary communication channel of gameplay (i.e., talking) that allows the game to be redirected (usually in slight ways) instead of grinding to a halt. In this capacity it's particularly useful for groups achieving high levels of focus and immersion; it's comparatively less useful for beer-and-pretzel groups where the focus frequently shifts from in-character to metagame.

The other useful aspect of the X-card is that, because it ISN'T conversation, it doesn't invite conversation. For the types of issues it's frequently used to flag, the person experiencing discomfort doesn't necessarily want to have a conversation about their feelings, either.

Yep.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;996233As soon as someone said they needed an X card, maybe, to handle something being in the game, my immediate response would be, "OK, that's not going to be in the game at all.  I'll see to it.  So that you can relax and have fun the way we want to."

Nope.

Because the #XCard isn't there to avoid certain concepts entirely, but to provide a safe way to engage them. Nobody at a BDSM event has a safe word to avoid engaging in the activities they're there for.

Quote from: Nerzenjäger;996457The GM shouldn't make suggestions or point to conclusions

e.g. "Well, there's an empty space at the eastern end of the hideout, maybe you should wait for an ambush there... or something like that"

That's a big one for me. Part of the fun is figuring things out and maybe even doing them in a way the GM didn't expect.

I'd venture that just like #Metagaming this is impossible to avoid entirely, and a GM can't help but make 'suggestions' in the way they describe things. For example, simply adding more detail to a subject will cause players to act on it. The division is also not clear, For example, saying an NPC looks nervous is often acceptable shorthand for describing how they aren't making eye contact and sweating, and then leaving it up to the player to figure out why.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;996601Nope.

Because the #XCard isn't there to avoid certain concepts entirely, but to provide a safe way to engage them. Nobody at a BDSM event has a safe word to avoid engaging in the activities they're there for.

Right, but I'm not playing that game.  If the only reason they are there is to push up against something that triggers them, then they can go find someone else to facilitate that for them.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;996601Isn't this the entire foundation of OSR style play though?

I wouldn't know; I'm not an OSR gamer at all. Just seems to come from idiots who want to use Minor Illusion as Major Image.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: Itachi;989605What do you think are the worst practices in RP gaming?

Showing up late, and not bringing snacks.

One of my friends gets sleepy early so he just gets up and leaves without saying anything.

One minute he's at the table, the next, I call his turn and realize he has gone home.

But eh, I have like 10 people over to play every time so it's not really a big deal. Just kind of random.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;996233The thing is, for some people, if you are going to push things that far (whatever their boundaries are), they can be quickly rendered speechless and unable to respond in a timely, rational manner.

Unless people play the X-card a lot in their games or have some means of keeping it handy despite seldom using it (necklace pendant?) they are going to have as much trouble finding the card when they need it insttead of saying something or just getting up from the table and walking away.

This is starting to sound like a Medic Alert bracelet... :p

Quote from: Opaopajr;996916This is starting to sound like a Medic Alert bracelet... :p

If someone built one and marketed it right for gamers, it would sell.  Probably needs to double as a d10.

I sense a business opportunity! ;) It should be splatted like WW/OP games. Perhaps by color, game fandom, and neuroses -- and if it really takes off, by preffered pronouns? :confused:

Quote from: AsenRG;995794What are the odds of you playing Dr. Who at the time, I wonder:D? Well, knowing you, I'd guess they are approximately zero.

You know that I was one of the playtesters of the current Doctor Who RPG, and that several of the main mechanical features of the game were my contribution to the game, right?

I have run Doctor Who various times, but this wasn't one of them. The player was part of my Dark Albion group; he just happens to be a big doctor who fan.

And yes, the X-card is retarded.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;996721Showing up late, and not bringing snacks.

Showing up late bothers me if it happens on a constant basis.

Bringing snacks is not obligatory yet if one is going eat and drink like everyone else one should bring even a bottle of cola from the 1$ store. The ones that bother me are those who claim to be too broke and poor to participate in bringing food. Yet show up to every game session with a new rpg product they just bought. Or worse brag about their newly bought technological device yet are "too" broke to bring food.

Quote from: The Exploited.;994567Someone that uses the dreaded 'X-card'.

I'm of two minds on that. For one, I don't want to use graphic violence or sexuality in my gaming because not only does it not interest me but since I play in public a lot it gives the wrong impression of what RPGs are to normals. Second, a player who is so psychologically fragile as to require an 'X-card' should not be playing RPGs unless they like to spend a lot of time outside of game in therapy.

Quote from: RPGPundit;997293You know that I was one of the playtesters of the current Doctor Who RPG, and that several of the main mechanical features of the game were my contribution to the game, right?

Of course I didn't know, Pundit:)! I'm not following your career, and even if I did, I almost never choose my games based on who the designers are, anyway (Loz, Pete and Marc Miller are the only positive exceptions).
I'll admit that surprises me, though. I mean, it's a game with Story Points, how did it work for you:D?

QuoteI have run Doctor Who various times, but this wasn't one of them. The player was part of my Dark Albion group; he just happens to be a big doctor who fan.

Well, too bad. You could have used his Dalek noises as background for the Dr Who game;)!

QuoteSecond, a player who is so psychologically fragile as to require an 'X-card' should not be playing RPGs unless they like to spend a lot of time outside of game in therapy.

I don't see it. You're playing a horror game where everyone at the table has agreed to push it into some very dark areas, including sexual assault. Someone decided it is getting too gross, they use a X card. This is bad why?

As usual seems a lot are making judgements about X cards and their use even though they have never even been in a game that used them and even admit to not dealing with the subject matter that usually calls for their use. Kinda the defintion of badwrongfun.

Because an X-card is gimmicky and twee compared to just saying, "Ewww! Too gross. Dial it back please."

Dear god, some people playing RPGs are twee? I thought this was a hobby for He-Men.

Seems y'all are grasping at straws to put down what others are doing at their tables with no actual experience of those tables and playing tough guys about RPGs of all things.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Voros;997357Dear god, some people playing RPGs are twee? I thought this was a hobby for He-Men.

Not what I said at all. The method sounds twee. The players sound inarticulate.

The people in your example have chosen to explore sexual violence in their leisure. So this is not something that they are going to suddenly be surprised by during play. So I'm struggling to understand why during that exploration they would be unable to say words to the effect of, "Ewww! Too gross. Dial it back please." I'm also uncertain how the other people at the table will be able to sort out which aspect of the dark sexual violence that one player found to be too much? Was it the act itself, the specific victim, the perpetrator, the level of description, the word choices used in the description? Flashing an X-card doesn't clarify what the actual problem or issue is which means we are now going to have to use our words to sort that out. So why not start out using our words?

Perhaps you can provide specific examples of an X-card use in play to enlighten the ignorant masses.

As a GM, an X-card could just be confusing. Let's say I am running a horror game, and I just describe an action by a monster when a player flashes a card. What is the X about? It is the action the monster took? Or was the description of the action to explicit? Or is the existence of the monster offensive in of itself? A card with an X on it tells me none of these things.

This is the first time I have ever heard about X-cards, but I thought that some people would use them as sort of trophies in such games that a previous poster mentioned. So, the more times you get someone to draw an x-card, the 'better roleplayer' you are. At least inside your mind, that is.

Quote from: Voros;997351I don't see it. You're playing a horror game where everyone at the table has agreed to push it into some very dark areas, including sexual assault. Someone decided it is getting too gross, they use a X card. This is bad why?

OK, you have a rape victim who decides they want to play in a game where their characters can be raped in game, the GM has told all of the players what might be happening. This player then halts game play because something that they knew could possibly trigger them has triggered them? Bullshit. I am not somebody else's psychological counseling foil either as player or GM. It is psychological unsafe for that X-card player and it is unfair to the rest of the people at the table. If you know that something can trigger your PTSD or whatever, then playing in a game where that subject matter is present is like playing Russian Roulette and that is too much to ask of people just gathered together to have fun.

Quote from: Voros;997351As usual seems a lot are making judgements about X cards and their use even though they have never even been in a game that used them and even admit to not dealing with the subject matter that usually calls for their use. Kinda the defintion of badwrongfun.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Voros;997357Dear god, some people playing RPGs are twee? I thought this was a hobby for He-Men.

Seems y'all are grasping at straws to put down what others are doing at their tables with no actual experience of those tables and playing tough guys about RPGs of all things.

:rolleyes:

This song and dance again?  You need a new record player, one where the needle doesn't get stuck on every single 45.  The one you have now is seriously messing with your signal to noise ratio.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;997464I feel like this has already been thoroughly documented in this thread multiple times, but one more time:

Glossed over not documented.

To address your bullet points in order.

• The minimal interruption of finding and raising a prop card is no more minimal than saying a short phrase like "Ewww! Too gross. Dial it back please."
• A phrase like "Ewww! Too gross. Dial it back please." no more invites debate among reasonable people than does waving a card in the air. Truly unreasonable people aren't going to be swayed by either a request or a card.
• Having a card will not create a system of trust. Seeing and using a card and having that work to resolve whatever issue its supposed to resolve will, over time, create trust. You are assuming the success is known and the trust is given before the trial is attempted.
• I don't want to enable people to avoid all self censorship. Self-censorship is a necessary element of healthy human interaction. Its absence is one reason so many Internet conversations are unproductive.

QuoteI'm deeply skeptical whenever somebody says it's impossible for something to work in actual play when people are, in fact, using it in actual play with success.

I didn't say it's impossible to use. But it doesn't appear to do anything that a short phrase doesn't already do. And to figure out what element of the interaction was the problem or the trigger (was it the act itself, the target of the act, the perpetrator of the act, the location of the act, the details or wording of the description of the act, or some combination of the above?) will require an interruption of greater length and some explanation using words or pictures or charades or something.

The noise draws a wandering monster.

Something is coming up behind you.  What it is can not be seen: it is like a great shadow, in the middle of which is a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seem to be in it and go before it.  In its right hand is a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it holds a whip of many thongs.

What do you do?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;997476The noise draws a wandering monster.

Something is coming up behind you.  What it is can not be seen: it is like a great shadow, in the middle of which is a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seem to be in it and go before it.  In its right hand is a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it holds a whip of many thongs.

What do you do?

Get across the bridge before that old graybeard with the staff and the pointy hat.

Quote from: jeff37923;997394OK, you have a rape victim who decides they want to play in a game where their characters can be raped in game, the GM has told all of the players what might be happening. This player then halts game play because something that they knew could possibly trigger them has triggered them? Bullshit. I am not somebody else's psychological counseling foil either as player or GM. It is psychological unsafe for that X-card player and it is unfair to the rest of the people at the table. If you know that something can trigger your PTSD or whatever, then playing in a game where that subject matter is present is like playing Russian Roulette and that is too much to ask of people just gathered together to have fun.



:rolleyes:

You're inventing fantasy scenarios to justify your predjudice against something you admit to having no experience or interest in.

Using an X card hardly requires that you be a rape victim, be 'triggered' or suffering from PTSD, you're pulling all of this right out of your ass based on your assumptions and stereotypes.

I already presented a much more likely scenerio based around horror game play, want to tell us why the X Card is so bad in that case?

Actually don't as you have no experience at the table to back it up.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;997445This song and dance again?  You need a new record player, one where the needle doesn't get stuck on every single 45.  The one you have now is seriously messing with your signal to noise ratio.

I find it tiresome to point out the clueless 'get off my lawn!' circlejerks too. The problem is less my pointing it out and more the smug, self-satisfied posts by those who admit to having no actual knowledge of the subject they are attacking based on prejudice and feelz.

Quote from: Bren;997466I didn't say it's impossible to use. But it doesn't appear to do anything that a short phrase doesn't already do. And to figure out what element of the interaction was the problem or the trigger (was it the act itself, the target of the act, the perpetrator of the act, the location of the act, the details or wording of the description of the act, or some combination of the above?) will require an interruption of greater length and some explanation using words or pictures or charades or something.

All theorycrafting, people are using this at their tables successfully by their own reports, why would you doubt them?

To be clear I don't even play these type of games or use X Cards but I've read and talked to those who have.

But according to you instead I should take the word of posters here who have by their own light no idea what they're talking about.

Think of the absurdity of people declaring X Cards the 'worse practice' in RPGs but when called on it not a single one of those attacking it have actually seen it at use at an actual table or are even interested in the kind of game with the content that would require it!!

Quote from: Voros;997515You're inventing fantasy scenarios to justify your predjudice against something you admit to having no experience or interest in.

Sorry if my hypothetical situation annoys you, but some player asking to use an X card at my table will get asked to leave. I don't want to put up with that shit.

Quote from: Voros;997515Using an X card hardly requires that you be a rape victim, be 'triggered' or suffering from PTSD, you're pulling all of this right out of your ass based on your assumptions and stereotypes.

Considering that we have had people post on this forum claiming that they have used RPGs to engage in amateur psychiatry to "help" victims of sexual abuse, it is a Real Life example.

Quote from: Voros;997515I already presented a much more likely scenerio based around horror game play, want to tell us why the X Card is so bad in that case?

I would find it annoying to deal with. If I am the GM, then I run the show and I will game for fun. If I am annoyed, I am not having fun. So no X card.

Quote from: Voros;997515Actually don't as you have no experience at the table to back it up.

Dumb ideas are self-evident. The X card is a dumb idea.

If you're triggered by genocide, you probably shouldn't be playing Keep on the Borderlands at my table.

While I don't think the concept of a X-card is dumb. I do think that before character creation even starts everyone should sit down at the table and decide what is acceptable and not during the campaign. If a grown man, woman, or whatever gender they identify with is unable to tell me what bothers them without the use of a X-card. I usually ask them to leave. If they can't tell me face to face without the use of a glorified index card they have some issues they need resolved first. I can understand those aged 15-20 being uncomfortable talking to me about what may bother them at a gaming table. Anyone over the age of 25 looks strange.

Whatever happened to talking to people and letting them know what they are both comfortable and not at the table.

Quote from: Bren;997362Not what I said at all. The method sounds twee. The players sound inarticulate.

The people in your example have chosen to explore sexual violence in their leisure. So this is not something that they are going to suddenly be surprised by during play. So I'm struggling to understand why during that exploration they would be unable to say words to the effect of, "Ewww! Too gross. Dial it back please." I'm also uncertain how the other people at the table will be able to sort out which aspect of the dark sexual violence that one player found to be too much? Was it the act itself, the specific victim, the perpetrator, the level of description, the word choices used in the description? Flashing an X-card doesn't clarify what the actual problem or issue is which means we are now going to have to use our words to sort that out. So why not start out using our words?

Perhaps you can provide specific examples of an X-card use in play to enlighten the ignorant masses.

Because the x card cannot be mistaken for something your character says. For instance, if an NPC is torturing the character, the character might say "stop" but the GM should probably ignore it. People say stop but torturers don't stop. if the X card is used, the GM knows that she or he is crossing a line and could, for instance lighten up on the description. I think it could easily be replaced by a safe word. For instance, you could agree that no ones character will say a specific word or phrase and that it would act as the x card.

There are at least two different issues being conflated here:

1. Would you use an RPG session as a kind of therapy, or in a session where it might turn into a quasi therapy session?

2. Is an X-card potentially effective when doing so?

My answer to the latter is that yes, it is.  For the simple reason that people can be rendered speechless when so stressed, but are still able to make a practiced, physical motion.  And the mere presence of such an outlet (i.e. having practiced it and it being understood) is often sufficient to avoid needing it.  In such a session, that would be the ideal use of the X-card, strictly as safety net as a last protection for something that has already been well discussed and hedged against.

The first question is where the difficulty lies.  I said earlier that I'm not running such a session.  The reason is that I'm convinced that RPG sessions as normally understood have no business being mixed in with therapy, despite some surface similarities.  I'm not going to get personal enough to get into the details, but suffice it to say that:

A. The nature of the thrill of imagining yourself in a bad situation in a game (say, a horror-like situation) is primarily one of vicariously experiencing something that you know to not be a threat.  Conflating that with someone addressing a fear that is inordinately real to them (for whatever reason) is seldom helpful.  Their therapist would not be amused.

B. Contrawise, one of the best things you can do for someone who is suffering such fears is to give them an outlet where they can engage in some good natured fun, perhaps even dealing with "scary" situations that hold no particular fear for them.  That is, let them be vicariously "afraid" but not really.  Thus, my point that whatever would be causing the need for the X-card in the first place is either a reason for the player to not be in the game or a reason for the GM to take the thing out.  If the person is a friend you want to help, that's the best thing you can do, the same way you'd invite them over to a party that didn't mess with their fears, either.

C. Amateur therapy sucks.

I can see uses for the X-card for GMs too: When players want to play out mundane boring-ass crap like shopping for common items or small-scale gambling or even dumb ass things like bar fights. Unless everyone at the table is into it, these things such the life right out of a game. Oh wait, the GM doesn't need a card; he can just say 'No'... and so can players.

I've never seen this stuff in play, so it's all theoretical to me. I can imagine someone who has had some form of negative life experience but still want to be able to play their elf games. I suppose I could see a normal game suddenly get entirely too real unexpectedly. And I can see holding up a card being a much safer feeling proposition than saying, "I need us to stop going down this road of discussion." and having to justify it to anyone who pushes back (and yes I can see getting pushback).

But moreover, that just sounds convenient for someone who might need one. As a completely unrelated example, I have a friend, who, as he gets excited just gets louder and LOUDER and LOUDER, and, back when we were all 20-somethings living in apartments, it was a real problem. It would have been really smart of us to have a laminated card for people to hold up that said, "Matt, pipe down before the upstairs neighbors start stomping on the floor!"

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;997559C. Amateur therapy sucks.

I would go further and say it's even potentially dangerous.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;997579I would go further and say it's even potentially dangerous.

It most certainly is. What's worse is when corporate tries to push managers and directors to use a "psychodynamic leadership approach" with barely any training and then they wonder why such things tend to go horribly wrong.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;997579I would go further and say it's even potentially dangerous.

Good thing then that no one is doing so when using the XCard in a GAME.

But you guys keep tilting at those windmills.

Quote from: Voros;997678Good thing then that no one is doing so when using the XCard in a GAME.

But you guys keep tilting at those windmills.

Hey, they can neither accept or refute the basic premise that the X Card is never misunderstood for something your character says. it isn't the only way to do it but it works.

Quote from: Voros;997518All theorycrafting, people are using this at their tables successfully by their own reports, why would you doubt them?

Because it sounds unlikely that their proposed solution effectively addresses the problem. Both a card and a phrase will require follow up conversation to determine what element (the act itself, the target of the act, the perpetrator of the act, the location of the act, the details or wording of the description of the act, or some combination of the above) was responsible for the X-card being played. That necessary follow up conversation seems to obviate the stated purpose of the X-card as a minimal interruption.

QuoteBut according to you instead I should take the word of posters here who have by their own light no idea what they're talking about.

I'm not suggesting you take anyone's word for anything.

And since you haven't used the X-card I now understand why you didn't provide an example from your own experience of how the card improves on a phrase nor on how the card makes clear exactly what should be avoided.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;997558Because the x card cannot be mistaken for something your character says.

Although I don't find it particularly difficult to discern the difference between what a player says and does OOC and what they say and do in character I can see that an X-card unambiguously identifies that there is some problem.

QuoteFor instance, if an NPC is torturing the character, the character might say "stop" but the GM should probably ignore it.

I'd expect them to say and do more than just the one word "stop." At least that's what's happened in my experience. I have a player who is uncomfortable with torture. Even without any words it was clear from the expression on her face and her body language when a scene moved too far outside her comfort zone.

QuotePeople say stop but torturers don't stop. if the X card is used, the GM knows that she or he is crossing a line and could, for instance lighten up on the description.

But the X-card doesn't clarify whether the issue is the act itself, the target of the act, the perpetrator of the act, the location of the act, the details or the description of the act, or some combination of the above. Figuring out what needs to be changed in play is the central point at issue and the X-card doesn't address that it only flags that there is some problem.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;997652People actually using it disagree with you.

People who don't provide examples. And at least one of whom also has no experience.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;997464- It creates a system of trust which provides a pre-established safety net allowing people to push their boundaries with confidence.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;997652

Quote from: Bren;997466

• Having a card will not create a system of trust.

No one said it did.

No one except you.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;997559There are at least two different issues being conflated here:

1. Would you use an RPG session as a kind of therapy, or in a session where it might turn into a quasi therapy session?

2. Is an X-card potentially effective when doing so?

My answer to the latter is that yes, it is.  For the simple reason that people can be rendered speechless when so stressed, but are still able to make a practiced, physical motion.  And the mere presence of such an outlet (i.e. having practiced it and it being understood) is often sufficient to avoid needing it.  In such a session, that would be the ideal use of the X-card, strictly as safety net as a last protection for something that has already been well discussed and hedged against.

The first question is where the difficulty lies.  I said earlier that I'm not running such a session.  The reason is that I'm convinced that RPG sessions as normally understood have no business being mixed in with therapy, despite some surface similarities.  I'm not going to get personal enough to get into the details, but suffice it to say that:

A. The nature of the thrill of imagining yourself in a bad situation in a game (say, a horror-like situation) is primarily one of vicariously experiencing something that you know to not be a threat.  Conflating that with someone addressing a fear that is inordinately real to them (for whatever reason) is seldom helpful.  Their therapist would not be amused.

B. Contrawise, one of the best things you can do for someone who is suffering such fears is to give them an outlet where they can engage in some good natured fun, perhaps even dealing with "scary" situations that hold no particular fear for them.  That is, let them be vicariously "afraid" but not really.  Thus, my point that whatever would be causing the need for the X-card in the first place is either a reason for the player to not be in the game or a reason for the GM to take the thing out.  If the person is a friend you want to help, that's the best thing you can do, the same way you'd invite them over to a party that didn't mess with their fears, either.

C. Amateur therapy sucks.

Agreed.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;997579I would go further and say it's even potentially dangerous.

This too.

Can I play my X-Card to stop discussion of the X-Card?

I'd explain why it's triggering me, but apparently I don't have to. You just have to stop now.

This is all rather rpg.net.

Quote from: Voros;997678Good thing then that no one is doing so when using the XCard in a GAME.

But you guys keep tilting at those windmills.

I have experience with this thing, multiple times, multiple angles--including using games for amateur therapy.  My C. point was vast understatement.  Gronan isn't kidding.  (There's a statement you don't see every day. :) )  

And you apparently did not parse my post, though I thought I was clear enough.  Yes, the X-card works very well for what it is intended to do.  Grease in a skillet also works very well for frying.  Not so well when someone lets it catch fire, or splashes water in it, or spills it all over themselves trying to take it to the sink.

Look, I think we can all agree as a logical proposition, that in a given game, the X-card is either useful to one or more participants, or it isn't.  Correct?  My contention, is that to the degree that it is actually useful (rather than, say, an affection), then it's playing with fire.   If it's harmless, and you don't really need it, then sure, knock yourself out.

Well, I know from reading Mazes and Monsters by Rona Jaffe and seeing the brilliant Tom Hanks film version of the novel that fantasy roleplaying is actually a great way to work out real-life problems unless you're fucking nuts and have a dead brother who speaks to you in your dreams and wants you to jump off the World Trade Center.

Since this is an X-card discussion now, there are two big problems with it.

One, bluntly put, lots of people are lying about being triggered. Triggering is a real thing, but it's a very specific real thing with a specific medical definition written by real psychiatrists, that can only happen to people who suffer from Post-traumatic Stress Disorder. Note, it can only happen to people with PTSD. A non-PTSD-sufferer being upset or scared by something is, by definition, not "getting triggered".

However, there seem to be a lot of people, in this case in the sorts of gaming circles that loudly advocate the X-card, who use the word to describe a variety of things from "I feel queasy about this" through "I'm not comfortable exploring this topic" to "This conflicts with my philosophical or political worldview". None of which are the same thing as being triggered. These people are abusing the term, and are therefore also abusing genuine PTSD victims by co-opting their very real psychiatric problem to serve their own picayune interests.

Two, as far as I can tell, actual real psychiatrists (not RPG designers, gaming con organisers, radical social justice pundits and the like) say that "solutions" like the X-card are not only useless, but actively harmful to PTSD victims. I'm not a psychiatrist, but the rather simple explanation I've read is that rituals like this just reinforce the victim's hang-up about the triggering material by forcing them to interact with it and artificially blowing up its apparent importance. It's like "Hey, I hope this doesn't remind you of how you were raped. Does it remind you of how you were RAPED? Here, take this "THIS REMINDS ME OF HOW I WAS RAPED"-card. If it reminds you of how you were RAPED, then just tap the card, because we don't want to accidentally remind you of how you were RAPED, okay?" That's what the X-card essentially does, whereas the genuinely helpful psychological approach is to just treat the issue as no big deal, so over time the victim can develop the subconscious notion that it's not a mountain but a molehill.

I play games to have fun, not be all edgy an' shit.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;997882Can I play my X-Card to stop discussion of the X-Card?

I'd explain why it's triggering me, but apparently I don't have to. You just have to stop now.

Whoa. Meta. :p

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;997925I play games to have fun, not be all edgy an' shit.

Says Mr. Tongue My Peehole. ;)

Quote from: jeff37923;997943Whoa. Meta. :p

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/NC7fqx6u4IKy1sPOLa_oodEpAjQ1ewP3HAamy20lwGY4aU_9EaTM7dQVOVZI3xd8TWR41X7UhD14PaaUUu-0hrmMO47-7Efe3TFpFbf9O7KMaUbjy3O52U-CnRnoE29o=s800)

Quote from: Premier;997909Since this is an X-card discussion now, there are two big problems with it.

One, bluntly put, lots of people are lying about being triggered. Triggering is a real thing, but it's a very specific real thing with a specific medical definition written by real psychiatrists, that can only happen to people who suffer from Post-traumatic Stress Disorder. Note, it can only happen to people with PTSD. A non-PTSD-sufferer being upset or scared by something is, by definition, not "getting triggered".

However, there seem to be a lot of people, in this case in the sorts of gaming circles that loudly advocate the X-card, who use the word to describe a variety of things from "I feel queasy about this" through "I'm not comfortable exploring this topic" to "This conflicts with my philosophical or political worldview". None of which are the same thing as being triggered. These people are abusing the term, and are therefore also abusing genuine PTSD victims by co-opting their very real psychiatric problem to serve their own picayune interests.

Two, as far as I can tell, actual real psychiatrists (not RPG designers, gaming con organisers, radical social justice pundits and the like) say that "solutions" like the X-card are not only useless, but actively harmful to PTSD victims. I'm not a psychiatrist, but the rather simple explanation I've read is that rituals like this just reinforce the victim's hang-up about the triggering material by forcing them to interact with it and artificially blowing up its apparent importance. It's like "Hey, I hope this doesn't remind you of how you were raped. Does it remind you of how you were RAPED? Here, take this "THIS REMINDS ME OF HOW I WAS RAPED"-card. If it reminds you of how you were RAPED, then just tap the card, because we don't want to accidentally remind you of how you were RAPED, okay?" That's what the X-card essentially does, whereas the genuinely helpful psychological approach is to just treat the issue as no big deal, so over time the victim can develop the subconscious notion that it's not a mountain but a molehill.

Dude you're going on and on about triggers and actual rape and we're talking about something used in games with dark content. I agree with you about some people claiming to be triggered by hoseshit and while you and I are not an experts on rape or any kind of trauma I have read probably the same article about PTSD that you did and it seemed believable.

But guess what? That has little to nothing to do with how and why X cards are actually used at the table.

Quote from: Baulderstone;997986Says Mr. Tongue My Peehole. ;)

The fact that my pee hole has become a mythic power is not my doing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998117The fact that my pee hole has become a mythic power is not my doing.

You know you like it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998117The fact that my pee hole has become a mythic power is not my doing.

My next Cleric will be a worshipper of Gronan's Simmeryan PeeHole. You don't want to know what the Holy Symbol is......

Quote from: jeff37923;998292My next Cleric will be a worshipper of Gronan's Simmeryan PeeHole. You don't want to know what the Holy Symbol is......

Peeholey symbol, you mean.

Quote from: Dumarest;998294Peeholey symbol, you mean.

You're a bad, bad man......

Quote from: jeff37923;998296You're a bad, bad man......

You're confusing me with Leroy Brown.

We really need the popcorn smiley back.

I miss the popcorn smiley. :(

Quote from: Voros;998019Dude you're going on and on about triggers and actual rape and we're talking about something used in games with dark content. I agree with you about some people claiming to be triggered by hoseshit and while you and I are not an experts on rape or any kind of trauma I have read probably the same article about PTSD that you did and it seemed believable.

But guess what? That has little to nothing to do with how and why X cards are actually used at the table.

Well, maybe the standard lines of argument have shifted since, but back when the thing was seeing much discussion in places I read, the usual pro-X-card line was "It helps PTSD victims avoid getting triggered."

Quote from: Premier;998522Well, maybe the standard lines of argument have shifted since, but back when the thing was seeing much discussion in places I read, the usual pro-X-card line was "It helps PTSD victims avoid getting triggered."

You have military vets at your table?

Quote from: Premier;998522Well, maybe the standard lines of argument have shifted since, but back when the thing was seeing much discussion in places I read, the usual pro-X-card line was "It helps PTSD victims avoid getting triggered."

I don't recall anyone who was pro-X-card using that line of argument in this thread.

I can't imagine ever playing with a group where a situation would arise that would make anyone feel the need for such a thing. Guess I'm just lucky.

Quote from: Dumarest;998645I can't imagine ever playing with a group where a situation would arise that would make anyone feel the need for such a thing. Guess I'm just lucky.

That's why I'm such a believer in stating expectations beforehand.  Exploring dark and edgy sexual violence?  No, thanks.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;996437And, of course, some people are forced to play with assholes. For example, it's literally impossible for Spinachcat to play in a group that doesn't have a massive asshole in it.

It's true! But you don't have to be there EVERY session!

Take a night off bro.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;9975591. Would you use an RPG session as a kind of therapy, or in a session where it might turn into a quasi therapy session?

Do I like the person?

If I like them, then never. Absolutely never.

If not, then it's LOLZ time baby!!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;997882Can I play my X-Card to stop discussion of the X-Card?

I play my X-card to cancel your X-card.

Triggering triggers me.

Quote from: Spinachcat;998684I play my X-card to cancel your X-card.

Triggering triggers me.

Gamers and house rules.  You start with one little thing, pretty soon you've got a 3-ring binder full of cards, and rules for who can use them when.

I don't use X cards.

But the discussion here seems to be about power and boundaries.  If I hand out X cards at my table I am saying "I respect your boundries before even knowing what they are."  

If I disallow X cards and demand that you speak, I am saying that you need to fight for your boundries every time.  Fight, advocate, lobby, you must build a case, I will judge it.  

I can see why people wouldn't want to subject themselves to that.  

I can also see not wanting to run a game where some stranger (none of us use X cards so any one who would use one in our game would be a stranger) gets an unappealable veto over our subject matter.  

As for amateur therapy, I do it all the time, its called being a friend.

I have to admit that the X card feels very Portland to me. If people get use out of it, more power to them. But I can't see it being something we'd adopt at my table (we definitely hear peoples' concerns if they have them, I just can't imagine a technique like this gaining traction with my players).

Quote from: Christopher Brady;998574You have military vets at your table?

I think you can get PTSD from Twitter now. It's science.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;998790I think you can get PTSD from Twitter now. It's science.

No it's not.  But whatever.  The X-Card is stupid idea in general.  It creates an atmosphere of distrust.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;998799No it's not.  But whatever.

Oh, YOU.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;998799No it's not.  But whatever.  The X-Card is stupid idea in general.  It creates an atmosphere of distrust.

Or, at the very least, an atmosphere of WTF?  I play to have a rollicking adventure, like Errol Flynn in Robin Hood, William Shatner in the original Star Trek, or the first Star Wars movie.

Somebody handing me an "X Card" would be my first hint it's time to give up my seat at the table and go let somebody buy me a beer.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;998784I have to admit that the X card feels very Portland to me. If people get use out of it, more power to them. But I can't see it being something we'd adopt at my table (we definitely hear peoples' concerns if they have them, I just can't imagine a technique like this gaining traction with my players).

Spot on, someone please rescue me.

Seems to me that the mere idea of a X Card being used at someone else's table has triggered a load of snowflakes on this forum.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;998784I have to admit that the X card feels very Portland to me. If people get use out of it, more power to them. But I can't see it being something we'd adopt at my table (we definitely hear peoples' concerns if they have them, I just can't imagine a technique like this gaining traction with my players).

Sure but I haven't seen anyone here say they run games with really extreme horror content that gets into dark, even sexually violent places.

I wouldn't run that kind of game myself but if some people do, who am I to challenge how they decide to handle it at their table?

Quote from: Voros;998937Sure but I haven't seen anyone here say they run games with really extreme horror content that gets into dark, even sexually violent places.

I wouldn't run that kind of game myself but if some people do, who am I to challenge how they decide to handle it at their table?

Most of my stuff tends to have horror of some kind in it. I'm not too sure if it's extreme but it depends on a person's definition of what extreme is I suppose. I wouldn't use an X Card per se, because I make it very clear that the game may have upsetting material in it. Of course, that's only for playing with people I don't really know (which is rare). All my mates know the score so it would'nt be nessassary. I think that there is responsility, on the players part as well, to make sure that they are comfortable with playing a mature game. It's all about consenting adults...

But if the X Card works for some, then that's cool - it's just not for me.

You are surprised by an Excardasaurus.  It attacks.  Roll reaction time.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999069You are surprised by an Excardasaurus.  It attacks.  Roll reaction time.

Fails, flees.

People who turn every thread about wrong practices in RPGs into a thread about RPGs and sex.

I'm returning here after a call from Real Life, so I'll clarify my example about Tracking (and players not knowing the rules).

There is a reason as why the Player's Handbook is called the Player's Handbook. I think.

Let's say that you decide to play a ranger. A group of orcs kidnaps the local whatever and your ranger tries to track them.

Track, in D&D 3.5, is a feat, and how it works is clearly explained in the Player's Handbook (and, online, in the SDR).

Personally, I think that there is NO REASON AT ALL for a player to say "I track the orcs!" and then look at the DM with glassy eyes. True, some info are realm of the DM (like how big the orc party is, and thus which is the appropriate modifier). However, it is my firm opinion that the player should know at the very least things like the base DC according to the ground type, on which skill to roll (Survival), that you have a -5 penalty if you move at normal speed instead of half and -20 if you move from normal up to double, and after how much time you can try another check if you fail (1 hour outdoor, 10 minutes indoor).

I'm actually ready to provide this info to the DM if he/she can't recall it on the fly - mostly because I run a character, the DM runs a world. Her job is to determine the level of the difficulty check based on the number of creature tracked, their size, weather/time considerations etc., not to remember the whole fucking rule - a rule I should have at the very least skimmed when I decided to play a ranger "because rangers are cool!"

After DMing a group of clueless players ("What's BAB again?") I decided to leave the DM reins to another guy and play a cleric. The funny thing is how I'm, now, basically a "powerplayer" simply because I remember what I can do and when with my 3rd level cleric - things that the dude who played a 10th level one never even knew that they existed (like the aforementioned adding your Charisma Bonus to the Turn Undead roll).

This, just to be clear, should never become a form of punishment for players who meet problems with the rules. As I said, we are all there to help. But if you are a Wizard and you haven't the faintest clue about what the "Spellcraft" skill is about, then you are probably playing the wrong class - or directly the wrong game.

I've played D&D for decades, have read all of OD&D, BECMI, B/X, 1e, 2e and 5e and have no idea what the Spellcraft skill is.

You make 3.5 D&D sounds as annoying as many claim. Glad I skipped that whole era.

Quote from: Voros;998937Sure but I haven't seen anyone here say they run games with really extreme horror content that gets into dark, even sexually violent places.

I wouldn't run that kind of game myself but if some people do, who am I to challenge how they decide to handle it at their table?

I don't have sexual violence in my games, but we do have horror, gore and characters have had plenty of romantic attachments and offspring. I guess for me, even if we did have more extreme content, X Card is probably not how we'd handle things. Again, not saying sensitivities wouldn't be respected, just that such a method would feel odd to us. And if X Card works for others that is great. I just think people sometimes don't realize how different the local gaming cultures can be and this is something that strikes me as extremely west coast.

Quote from: Voros;999136I've played D&D for decades, have read all of OD&D, BECMI, B/X, 1e, 2e and 5e and have no idea what the Spellcraft skill is.

You make 3.5 D&D sounds as annoying as many claim. Glad I skipped that whole era.

In A nut shell.
It's used to properly identify spell that are being used and in craft checks for making new spells.
From the d20 srd.

QuoteSpellcraft (Int; Trained Only)

Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place.
Check

You can identify spells and magic effects. The DCs for Spellcraft checks relating to various tasks are summarized on the table below.
Spellcraft DC    Task
13    When using read magic, identify a glyph of warding. No action required.
15 + spell level    Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.
15 + spell level    Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours.
15 + spell level    Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook (wizard only). One try per day. No extra time required.
15 + spell level    When casting detect magic, determine the school of magic involved in the aura of a single item or creature you can see. (If the aura is not a spell effect, the DC is 15 + one-half caster level.) No action required.
19    When using read magic, identify a symbol. No action required.
20 + spell level    Identify a spell that's already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
20 + spell level    Identify materials created or shaped by magic, such as noting that an iron wall is the result of a wall of iron spell. No action required. No retry.
20 + spell level    Decipher a written spell (such as a scroll) without using read magic. One try per day. Requires a full-round action.
25 + spell level    After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry.
25    Identify a potion. Requires 1 minute. No retry.
20    Draw a diagram to allow dimensional anchor to be cast on a magic circle spell. Requires 10 minutes. No retry. This check is made secretly so you do not know the result.
30 or higher    Understand a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream. Time required varies. No retry.

See also: epic usages of Spellcraft.
Action

Varies, as noted above.
Try Again

See above.
Special

If you are a specialist wizard, you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks when dealing with a spell or effect from your specialty school. You take a -5 penalty when dealing with a spell or effect from a prohibited school (and some tasks, such as learning a prohibited spell, are just impossible).

If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
Synergy

    If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
    If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Magic Device, you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to decipher spells on scrolls.
    If you have 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;999166I don't have sexual violence in my games, but we do have horror, gore and characters have had plenty of romantic attachments and offspring. I guess for me, even if we did have more extreme content, X Card is probably not how we'd handle things. Again, not saying sensitivities wouldn't be respected, just that such a method would feel odd to us. And if X Card works for others that is great. I just think people sometimes don't realize how different the local gaming cultures can be and this is something that strikes me as extremely west coast.

You should come visit the West Coast sometime and shatter all your illusions.  :D

Quote from: Dumarest;999197You should come visit the West Coast sometime and shatter all your illusions.  :D

I spent five years there. I realize it isn't monolithic

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;999166...And if X Card works for others that is great. I just think people sometimes don't realize how different the local gaming cultures can be and this is something that strikes me as extremely west coast.

For sure, but hippies get to play RPGs too right? :D

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;999206I spent five years there. I realize it isn't monolithic

The dream of the nineties is alive in Portland. :p Now less piercings and scowling, you're looking too San Francisco.

Quote from: Voros;999220For sure, but hippies get to play RPGs too right? :D

Absolutely. But we don't all have to wear patchouli.

Worst RP practices: Instead of engaging each other as comrades in a fantasy world, engage each other as intolerant xenophobes in the USA.

GM: (explains X card)
Player A: Why can't people with PTSD not be here or man up and tell us if they're having a flashback?
Player B: Ya that seems pretty West Coast to me.
Player C: The dreams of the '90s are alive in Portland... Portland... Portland...
Player D: Oh yeah, well the dreams of the 1790s are alive in Georgia!
GM: (attempts to use X Card)

Quote from: fearsomepirate;998790I think you can get PTSD from Twitter now. It's science.

Twitter sure triggers me:)!

Quote from: Voros;998937Sure but I haven't seen anyone here say they run games with really extreme horror content that gets into dark, even sexually violent places.

I wouldn't run that kind of game myself but if some people do, who am I to challenge how they decide to handle it at their table?

In fact, I think that anyone running a game that goes into dark and sexually violent places, is extremely unlikely to ask, or to listen to, the advice given on a forum;).

Quote from: Reckall;999099This, just to be clear, should never become a form of punishment for players who meet problems with the rules. As I said, we are all there to help. But if you are a Wizard and you haven't the faintest clue about what the "Spellcraft" skill is about, then you are probably playing the wrong class - or directly the wrong game.

Well, 3.5 and its offshoots like Pathfinder are played by way too many people that should have realized those are the wrong games for them:D!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;999074Fails, flees.

Well done!  You escape.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;999251Absolutely. But we don't all have to wear patchouli.

The problem isn't the patchouli, the problem is marinating in it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999332The problem isn't the patchouli, the problem is marinating in it.

Marinating really isn't that effective. The best approach to people wearing patchouli is to boil them in it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;999332The problem isn't the patchouli, the problem is marinating in it.

Patchouli can only marinate. I just used a gas pump handled by a person wearing patchouli and it took five showers to eliminate the stench from my hand.

I'm glad I don't really know what the heck you guys are talking about.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;999451Patchouli can only marinate. I just used a gas pump handled by a person wearing patchouli and it took five showers to eliminate the stench from my hand.

   That explains why the Stinkor figure from the Masters of the Universe toy line can retain its smell thirty years later.

Moby know what to do about patchouli stink.  1:40 mark.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D68epYBCtFWI&ved=0ahUKEwjdq9PYsOTWAhWD0RoKHad4DpYQo7QBCCUwAA&usg=AOvVaw2dgHePdNbJCuEOT44TKfAA

Quote from: Bren;999529I'm glad I don't really know what the heck you guys are talking about.

Patchouli Oil, X-Card, or both?

I guess pretty much anything The Gaming Den recommends would be worst practices.

Railroading totally has its place. Lots of classic adventures are railroads, although written well enough that you have to understand how they work. Now, there's a big difference between "no you can't bribe the guards, you all die" and "you'll have to go through the guard room first, then clear the outer barracks, which as the key to the inner keep...".

The latter is very useful for the GM, especially in modern games where resource management is more formally part of play. Knowing that "the players are at maximum strength at A, should have most of their resources by B, should have serious wear by C" allows the GM to set up encounters more appropriately...if you want that sort of thing.

Quote from: CRKrueger;999585Patchouli Oil, X-Card, or both?

Patchouli Oil makes me show an X-Card because I was once traumatized by the smell of Hippie Dirt.

Patchouli Oil.

Quote from: Doom;999605I guess pretty much anything The Gaming Den recommends would be worst practices.

Such as...?