Quote from: Dumarest;990084Well, it is the ref's job to know the rules and the player's job to describe what he's doing. I've played many games where the players haven't read any of the rules and just tell me their actions and roll the dice.

True, the ref should know the rules - or he couldn't be a ref in the first place (if you don't know the rules needed to manage an elven thief, for example, how are you supposed to manage such an NPC?)

What I'm talking about, however, are those players (and I met many) who think it's the DM's job to remind them what they can do, and how. I had a player who choose to play a human ranger in my 3.5 D&D campaign, only to never bother to recall that he had the "tracking" ability - or how it worked, for what matters. Latter, I discovered how he always mistook "disguise" for "hide" - and always rolled his hide checks by adding his "disguise" modifier (maybe he disguised himself so to look like a small tree, or a stalagmite - dunno...)

What surprises me is how reading the rules, at least the general ones and those who pertain your character, should be a pleasure, not a job. D&D 3.5 is not the easiest of systems, but I always had a lot of fun in discovery what my character could do, and how (I also love a lot the fluff parts, but I'm digressing). The DM is supposed to be busy running the adventure and the NPCs, not to be overburdened by the need to explain how your alchemical fire flask works or that you have bought two in the first place ---> multiply the above for everything inherent to a player's character. Knowing and running your character is your job, not the DM's.

I had a cleric player who never remembered to add his charisma bonus to his "Turn Undead" check. When I grew suspicious and checked, he just said "I can do this? Where is it written?"

And what about that ranger who spent tons of points in the "Geography" and "Nature" skill, but he never used the +2 bonus on Survival checks that the skills granted after 5 ranks (+4 when you reached 5 ranks in both)?

Even worse, I had a player who, after two years, still floundered when asked to do a save check. I said "please, do a Fortitude save check at DC18", and she always started to look around her character sheets, checking things like the skills list and her weapon bonuses, and, in a general sense, being unable to find where her Fortitude save bonus was (let alone remember what it was) It was, to put it mildly, depressing. True, either I or other players ended up pointing where it was - but time was lost, the flow of the game was broken, and, again, it shouldn't have been our job.

[She, BTW, often floundered when asked to do ANY other check ("My total attack bonus with a bow? Where is it?") except skill checks. Maybe I'm being unjust, and she suffered from a form of dyslexia (she taught literature in high-school just fine, however). I never knew. However, there are remedies: highlight in various colours the things you never remember, for example, or WRITE YOUR SAVE BONUSES IN BIG LETTERS on a separate sheet of paper, if you are really desperate.]

The positive thing is that there is a punishment of sorts in all of this. If a ranger "leads the party into the wildlands!" and then he forgets all the rules meant for his class to do this better than others, the party will be in big trouble fast - and he will probably end being physically beaten up by the other players (relieving, in a way, the DM from the same burden...)

Yeah, because being a dick to players having trouble with the rules is SUCH a good idea.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;990617Yeah, because being a dick to players having trouble with the rules is SUCH a good idea.

There is a difference between "being a dick to players having trouble with the rules" and not even knowing what you can do.

I fully agree that creating your character with a piece of paper and a pencil helps - because it is the best form of remembering and assimilating things. And there is nothing wrong in forgetting, misinterpreting or having trouble with the rules: the ref and the other players should be there to help.

However, if a character proudly shouts "I have Tracking! I track the orc raiders!" - and then you discover how he never even bothered to read how Tracking works because "it is the the ref who is supposed to explain the rule to me!", either the dude reads the rule FAST or he doesn't track. Again, should he be confused and uncertain about the rule, both the ref and the other players will be there to help. But first READ WHAT THE DAMN CHARACTER YOU CHOOSE IN THE FIRST PLACE CAN ACTUALLY DO.

Be sure that if I do play a Star Elf Sorcerer in a Forgotten Realms setting, with regional/racial feats coming from a supplement (I'm making this up) I will be the first one who tells the ref what extra/special rules do apply.

I really can't see any other way to be a player - except in those games which do use unusual systems.

If he attempts to track the orc raiders, isn't his job to say how he does it and then the ref determines the result either via dice or other methods? I'm not seeing why the player needs to know the rules for that. Maybe you can give a better example.

Quote from: Dumarest;990624If he attempts to track the orc raiders, isn't his job to say how he does it and then the ref determines the result either via dice or other methods? I'm not seeing why the player needs to know the rules for that. Maybe you can give a better example.

Likewise.

And as referee, the LAST thing I want is some player dumping an elaborate set of rules on me from some obscure supplement in the middle of a game.

You'd think that all this stuff is just common sense by now... Especially, if you've been playing for years.

But I'm amazed at how many of these pitfalls people still fall into. I'm sure I still make mistakes as a GM but with a lot less frequency, I hope.

Running a game crunchier than the audience is willing, or able, to chew. This applies to both settings (high concept) and system mechanics.

Knowing your audience is always the priority step, because real people come first. Hey, trust me, I'm sad that there's many RPGs and Campaigns I doubt I'll ever run because I don't have the right players for it. But with what I do offer I try to dial up or down depending on my player's capacity. (That and periodic post-game critiques from them to see where we can realign onto the same page.)

Quote from: Opaopajr;990726Running a game crunchier than the audience is willing, or able, to chew. This applies to both settings (high concept) and system mechanics.

Knowing your audience is always the priority step, because real people come first. Hey, trust me, I'm sad that there's many RPGs and Campaigns I doubt I'll ever run because I don't have the right players for it. But with what I do offer I try to dial up or down depending on my player's capacity. (That and periodic post-game critiques from them to see where we can realign onto the same page.)

This.

The crew I've got is always up for d6 Star Wars, but I really have to pick and choose players if I want to run Traveller because the system and most settings will kill off murder-hoboes.

Quote from: Voros;989872When I was in my late teens and early twenties some of the things that drove me away from RPGs were powergamers and creeps who used the game to act out their barely repressed sadism and sexual misery.

Yeah this. But I was in my late 30s the last time I saw it. Still bad.

Quote from: Opaopajr;990726Running a game crunchier than the audience is willing, or able, to chew. This applies to both settings (high concept) and system mechanics.

Knowing your audience is always the priority step, because real people come first. Hey, trust me, I'm sad that there's many RPGs and Campaigns I doubt I'll ever run because I don't have the right players for it. But with what I do offer I try to dial up or down depending on my player's capacity. (That and periodic post-game critiques from them to see where we can realign onto the same page.)

This is why I logged on tonight.

I'm about to try and help my local library start a RPG club, first session next week. I would prefer DCC, feel B/X is the easiest to gronk, but settled on running 5E because it is most accessible to the public right now.

It is hard to judge the level of crunch when you have no idea what you are going to have as a player base. Like you said I will have to dial it up or down on the fly.

I just got the 5E PHB today and after a few hours reading I would cut out a quarter of the class/race options for a home game. No way I am doing character creation at the library group, definitely using pre-gens.

But I also realise I might get some experienced players that want to bring in their own brews with more bells and whistles so I may let some substitute characters come in on the second session.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;990745This is why I logged on tonight.

I'm about to try and help my local library start a RPG club, first session next week. I would prefer DCC, feel B/X is the easiest to gronk, but settled on running 5E because it is most accessible to the public right now.

It is hard to judge the level of crunch when you have no idea what you are going to have as a player base. Like you said I will have to dial it up or down on the fly.

I just got the 5E PHB today and after a few hours reading I would cut out a quarter of the class/race options for a home game. No way I am doing character creation at the library group, definitely using pre-gens.

But I also realise I might get some experienced players that want to bring in their own brews with more bells and whistles so I may let some substitute characters come in on the second session.

If the GM knows a system well enough, and can translate the mechanics into and out of prose descriptions, then players who have never played an RPG can play in a game the GM is running crunchily. I have done a lot of this with TFT and GURPS, even often with players who know the rules really well. Player says what they do in natural language. GM uses the rules and translates the results into natural language.

Read-aloud (i.e. "boxed text") is usually a bad idea.  If the text is more than two paragraphs, it's almost always a terrible idea.

Being unprepared, as a GM.  You need to know the rules and the adventure well-enough to keep things running smoothly.  Obviously, allowances are made to accommodate unusual player actions.  Handling that kind of stuff just takes experience.

As a player, I don't expect you to start the campaign knowing the rules.  But at least pay attention - let's not have a twenty-second pause every time I ask you to make a saving throw, seven sessions deep.  You're hurting my feelings.

Treating the rules as scripture is bad.  This means time wasted by a GM trawling through rulebooks and supplements, and rules-lawyering by players.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;990745This is why I logged on tonight.

I'm about to try and help my local library start a RPG club, first session next week. I would prefer DCC, feel B/X is the easiest to gronk, but settled on running 5E because it is most accessible to the public right now.

It is hard to judge the level of crunch when you have no idea what you are going to have as a player base. Like you said I will have to dial it up or down on the fly.

I just got the 5E PHB today and after a few hours reading I would cut out a quarter of the class/race options for a home game. No way I am doing character creation at the library group, definitely using pre-gens.

But I also realise I might get some experienced players that want to bring in their own brews with more bells and whistles so I may let some substitute characters come in on the second session.

As a suggestion, check out the D&D 5E Basic Game. It is a free download from WotC at this link.

Players/Dms/Rpg Companies that need badmouth a rpg to sell/run/play another rpg

Nothing screams Rpg heartbreaker to me as soon as someone insults another rpg to push another rpg. If one can't sell a rpg on it's own merits and needs to insult another rpg to get me interested. Guess what I stopped being interested and it shows me that your not someone I want to run a game for or play with.

Quote from: sureshot;991227Players/Dms/Rpg Companies that need badmouth a rpg to sell/run/play another rpg

Nothing screams Rpg heartbreaker to me as soon as someone insults another rpg to push another rpg. If one can't sell a rpg on it's own merits and needs to insult another rpg to get me interested. Guess what I stopped being interested and it shows me that your not someone I want to run a game for or play with.

Isn't that basically what goes on on RPG forums? Some weirdo with an insane level of aversion to the most random and benign thing (omg, I just can't play a game where rolling low is good) goes on a non-sequitir-fueled rant how everything is broken and needs his to be playing his favorite game to fix it?