Quote from: Voros;997678Good thing then that no one is doing so when using the XCard in a GAME.

But you guys keep tilting at those windmills.

Hey, they can neither accept or refute the basic premise that the X Card is never misunderstood for something your character says. it isn't the only way to do it but it works.

Quote from: Voros;997518All theorycrafting, people are using this at their tables successfully by their own reports, why would you doubt them?

Because it sounds unlikely that their proposed solution effectively addresses the problem. Both a card and a phrase will require follow up conversation to determine what element (the act itself, the target of the act, the perpetrator of the act, the location of the act, the details or wording of the description of the act, or some combination of the above) was responsible for the X-card being played. That necessary follow up conversation seems to obviate the stated purpose of the X-card as a minimal interruption.

QuoteBut according to you instead I should take the word of posters here who have by their own light no idea what they're talking about.

I'm not suggesting you take anyone's word for anything.

And since you haven't used the X-card I now understand why you didn't provide an example from your own experience of how the card improves on a phrase nor on how the card makes clear exactly what should be avoided.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;997558Because the x card cannot be mistaken for something your character says.

Although I don't find it particularly difficult to discern the difference between what a player says and does OOC and what they say and do in character I can see that an X-card unambiguously identifies that there is some problem.

QuoteFor instance, if an NPC is torturing the character, the character might say "stop" but the GM should probably ignore it.

I'd expect them to say and do more than just the one word "stop." At least that's what's happened in my experience. I have a player who is uncomfortable with torture. Even without any words it was clear from the expression on her face and her body language when a scene moved too far outside her comfort zone.

QuotePeople say stop but torturers don't stop. if the X card is used, the GM knows that she or he is crossing a line and could, for instance lighten up on the description.

But the X-card doesn't clarify whether the issue is the act itself, the target of the act, the perpetrator of the act, the location of the act, the details or the description of the act, or some combination of the above. Figuring out what needs to be changed in play is the central point at issue and the X-card doesn't address that it only flags that there is some problem.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;997652People actually using it disagree with you.

People who don't provide examples. And at least one of whom also has no experience.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;997464- It creates a system of trust which provides a pre-established safety net allowing people to push their boundaries with confidence.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;997652

Quote from: Bren;997466

• Having a card will not create a system of trust.

No one said it did.

No one except you.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;997559There are at least two different issues being conflated here:

1. Would you use an RPG session as a kind of therapy, or in a session where it might turn into a quasi therapy session?

2. Is an X-card potentially effective when doing so?

My answer to the latter is that yes, it is.  For the simple reason that people can be rendered speechless when so stressed, but are still able to make a practiced, physical motion.  And the mere presence of such an outlet (i.e. having practiced it and it being understood) is often sufficient to avoid needing it.  In such a session, that would be the ideal use of the X-card, strictly as safety net as a last protection for something that has already been well discussed and hedged against.

The first question is where the difficulty lies.  I said earlier that I'm not running such a session.  The reason is that I'm convinced that RPG sessions as normally understood have no business being mixed in with therapy, despite some surface similarities.  I'm not going to get personal enough to get into the details, but suffice it to say that:

A. The nature of the thrill of imagining yourself in a bad situation in a game (say, a horror-like situation) is primarily one of vicariously experiencing something that you know to not be a threat.  Conflating that with someone addressing a fear that is inordinately real to them (for whatever reason) is seldom helpful.  Their therapist would not be amused.

B. Contrawise, one of the best things you can do for someone who is suffering such fears is to give them an outlet where they can engage in some good natured fun, perhaps even dealing with "scary" situations that hold no particular fear for them.  That is, let them be vicariously "afraid" but not really.  Thus, my point that whatever would be causing the need for the X-card in the first place is either a reason for the player to not be in the game or a reason for the GM to take the thing out.  If the person is a friend you want to help, that's the best thing you can do, the same way you'd invite them over to a party that didn't mess with their fears, either.

C. Amateur therapy sucks.

Agreed.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;997579I would go further and say it's even potentially dangerous.

This too.

Can I play my X-Card to stop discussion of the X-Card?

I'd explain why it's triggering me, but apparently I don't have to. You just have to stop now.

This is all rather rpg.net.

Quote from: Voros;997678Good thing then that no one is doing so when using the XCard in a GAME.

But you guys keep tilting at those windmills.

I have experience with this thing, multiple times, multiple angles--including using games for amateur therapy.  My C. point was vast understatement.  Gronan isn't kidding.  (There's a statement you don't see every day. )  

And you apparently did not parse my post, though I thought I was clear enough.  Yes, the X-card works very well for what it is intended to do.  Grease in a skillet also works very well for frying.  Not so well when someone lets it catch fire, or splashes water in it, or spills it all over themselves trying to take it to the sink.

Look, I think we can all agree as a logical proposition, that in a given game, the X-card is either useful to one or more participants, or it isn't.  Correct?  My contention, is that to the degree that it is actually useful (rather than, say, an affection), then it's playing with fire.   If it's harmless, and you don't really need it, then sure, knock yourself out.

Well, I know from reading Mazes and Monsters by Rona Jaffe and seeing the brilliant Tom Hanks film version of the novel that fantasy roleplaying is actually a great way to work out real-life problems unless you're fucking nuts and have a dead brother who speaks to you in your dreams and wants you to jump off the World Trade Center.

Since this is an X-card discussion now, there are two big problems with it.

One, bluntly put, lots of people are lying about being triggered. Triggering is a real thing, but it's a very specific real thing with a specific medical definition written by real psychiatrists, that can only happen to people who suffer from Post-traumatic Stress Disorder. Note, it can only happen to people with PTSD. A non-PTSD-sufferer being upset or scared by something is, by definition, not "getting triggered".

However, there seem to be a lot of people, in this case in the sorts of gaming circles that loudly advocate the X-card, who use the word to describe a variety of things from "I feel queasy about this" through "I'm not comfortable exploring this topic" to "This conflicts with my philosophical or political worldview". None of which are the same thing as being triggered. These people are abusing the term, and are therefore also abusing genuine PTSD victims by co-opting their very real psychiatric problem to serve their own picayune interests.

Two, as far as I can tell, actual real psychiatrists (not RPG designers, gaming con organisers, radical social justice pundits and the like) say that "solutions" like the X-card are not only useless, but actively harmful to PTSD victims. I'm not a psychiatrist, but the rather simple explanation I've read is that rituals like this just reinforce the victim's hang-up about the triggering material by forcing them to interact with it and artificially blowing up its apparent importance. It's like "Hey, I hope this doesn't remind you of how you were raped. Does it remind you of how you were RAPED? Here, take this "THIS REMINDS ME OF HOW I WAS RAPED"-card. If it reminds you of how you were RAPED, then just tap the card, because we don't want to accidentally remind you of how you were RAPED, okay?" That's what the X-card essentially does, whereas the genuinely helpful psychological approach is to just treat the issue as no big deal, so over time the victim can develop the subconscious notion that it's not a mountain but a molehill.

I play games to have fun, not be all edgy an' shit.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;997882Can I play my X-Card to stop discussion of the X-Card?

I'd explain why it's triggering me, but apparently I don't have to. You just have to stop now.

Whoa. Meta.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;997925I play games to have fun, not be all edgy an' shit.

Says Mr. Tongue My Peehole.

Quote from: jeff37923;997943Whoa. Meta.

Quote from: Premier;997909Since this is an X-card discussion now, there are two big problems with it.

One, bluntly put, lots of people are lying about being triggered. Triggering is a real thing, but it's a very specific real thing with a specific medical definition written by real psychiatrists, that can only happen to people who suffer from Post-traumatic Stress Disorder. Note, it can only happen to people with PTSD. A non-PTSD-sufferer being upset or scared by something is, by definition, not "getting triggered".

However, there seem to be a lot of people, in this case in the sorts of gaming circles that loudly advocate the X-card, who use the word to describe a variety of things from "I feel queasy about this" through "I'm not comfortable exploring this topic" to "This conflicts with my philosophical or political worldview". None of which are the same thing as being triggered. These people are abusing the term, and are therefore also abusing genuine PTSD victims by co-opting their very real psychiatric problem to serve their own picayune interests.

Two, as far as I can tell, actual real psychiatrists (not RPG designers, gaming con organisers, radical social justice pundits and the like) say that "solutions" like the X-card are not only useless, but actively harmful to PTSD victims. I'm not a psychiatrist, but the rather simple explanation I've read is that rituals like this just reinforce the victim's hang-up about the triggering material by forcing them to interact with it and artificially blowing up its apparent importance. It's like "Hey, I hope this doesn't remind you of how you were raped. Does it remind you of how you were RAPED? Here, take this "THIS REMINDS ME OF HOW I WAS RAPED"-card. If it reminds you of how you were RAPED, then just tap the card, because we don't want to accidentally remind you of how you were RAPED, okay?" That's what the X-card essentially does, whereas the genuinely helpful psychological approach is to just treat the issue as no big deal, so over time the victim can develop the subconscious notion that it's not a mountain but a molehill.

Dude you're going on and on about triggers and actual rape and we're talking about something used in games with dark content. I agree with you about some people claiming to be triggered by hoseshit and while you and I are not an experts on rape or any kind of trauma I have read probably the same article about PTSD that you did and it seemed believable.

But guess what? That has little to nothing to do with how and why X cards are actually used at the table.

Quote from: Baulderstone;997986Says Mr. Tongue My Peehole.

The fact that my pee hole has become a mythic power is not my doing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998117The fact that my pee hole has become a mythic power is not my doing.

You know you like it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;998117The fact that my pee hole has become a mythic power is not my doing.

My next Cleric will be a worshipper of Gronan's Simmeryan PeeHole. You don't want to know what the Holy Symbol is......