Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383484The variance between individuals in voice and body language is much greater than the variance between genders. Just consider Kevin Spacey doing impersonations of Al Pacino, Christopher Walken and so on. You don't realise just how distinctive those individuals are until you see one person trying to do several of them.

While the variance may be great, certain body language is associate with each sex, which comes into play whenever there are cross-dressing scenes in movies, for example.  Other than appearance, body language and voice inflection is what marks men as effeminate and women as butch, because they are showing body language and/or voice inflection normally associated with the other sex.  Sure, there is variety but that variety clusters in certain ways such that particular types of body language and voice inflection are associated with one particular sex.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383484Good acting is hard. Most of us are bad at it, and it doesn't matter whether we're Bloodaxe the Skull-Cleaver who happens to be a boy like us, or Sima McBeard, who is a dwarf but a woman - usually we're just playing ourselves with a few key differences, like having decent agility.

My experience is that acting skill varies widely by player, but I've played with plenty of people who do a decent job of it including the last D&D game I played in, not with my regular group, in which everyone spoke using in character accents and body language and emoted appropriately in character.

Okay even assuming dudes can't play convicning girls and vice versa and that this is somehow harmful to the overall quality of roleplaying game, where do you draw the line?

Are we going to say that white guys can't play black dudes? Or that uptight Brits should not be allowed to play Aussies or Brazilians because they just ain't cool enough? Should the GM insist for audtions before the game  to ensure that everyone around the table can get the righht body language and perfect accents for their characters?

I wouldn't hold auditions, or draw any lines. I expect it to be crap. It's a roleplaying game, not an Academy of Drama.

I just ask that people play different characters from time to time. If the character is always the same, it gets dull.

   "Don't let yourself get too worried about all this talk about role-playing. While it can be great fun to escape into a new character, he or she will still have an awful lot of you in them. As you must know by now, for we've said it often enough, the ultimate object of all this is for everyone to have fun, not to recreate some form of high dramatic art."
- Dungeoneer, by Steve Jackson [UK] and Ian Livingstone

Al Pacino is always Al Pacino, his mannerisms and tones of speech the same in every movie. Christopher Walken is always Christopher Walken. And so on. They are all very, very recognisable by the way they move and speak. If people with years of dramatic training paid millions of dollars to do it STILL can't change their basic mannerisms and intonation, I don't see why we expect a bunch of cheetos-eating dice-rolling gamers around a dinner table to do it.

I roleplay. Badly. I'm a ham actor. It's always over-the-top. And that's fun.

With the people who claim, "if you can't roleplay it well, you shouldn't roleplay it, and few males can roleplay females well and vice versa," there's always a contradiction - the GM. The GM has to roleplay a zillion different characters. If the GM's allowed to roleplay some of them badly, why can't a player? If we have an all-female group, should all our games be set in a nunnery? If all-male, should they all be set in an infantry unit in WWI? Oh no, a PC was wounded, and in the hospital there are female nurses, what to do?

Relax. Accept that you'll roleplay badly, whether your character is a man, woman, orc, elf, Vargr or whatever. Ham it up. Have fun with it.

the line is pretty easy to determine.

If I am offended or uncomfortible with something and I'm gming it doesn't get in. If it somehow got in and is now making me offended or uncomfortible it goes.

At home they call me the petite tyrant but really the logic is, if I am offended/uncomfortible chances are pretty good someone else in the group is and thats more than enough reason to get rid of something.

Quote from: Logos7;383616the line is pretty easy to determine.

If I am offended or uncomfortible with something and I'm gming it doesn't get in. If it somehow got in and is now making me offended or uncomfortible it goes.

At home they call me the petite tyrant but really the logic is, if I am offended/uncomfortible chances are pretty good someone else in the group is and thats more than enough reason to get rid of something.

OK, that's pretty similar to my own view - but the next logical question is, what makes you offended or uncomfortable?  

This seems to be the real core of disagreement.  We've heard horror stories about some juvenile male player who creates a lesbian stripper ninja as a PC.  On the other hand, I've also experienced players who were uncomfortable with almost any cross-gender play - as well as some who were uncomfortable with female characters and/or female players.  So I don't automatically side with the person who claims offense.  If a player claims to be uncomfortable simply with there being a woman in the group - then they'll be the one to leave.  There needs to be some legitimate reason for offense.  

I don't think I'm ever offended by play being cross-gender.  I could be offended by certain characters and the way they are played, but that's regardless of the gender of the player.  i.e. The lesbian stripper ninja would likely be offensive to me regardless of whether the player was a man or a woman.

There are two different factors at play here:

1. Playing yourself (or a dream-version of yourself) in an RPG.
2. Poor acting.

Those are two completely different things.
There are actors who essentially play themselves a lot of times, and they're BRILLIANT actors, and there are actors who play themselves and they are AWFUL actors.

From my experience, there are plenty of gamers who do play essentially themselves, every time they play.  There are also gamers who actually play a wide variety of characters who are not at all like themselves.
The thing is, about half of either are awful at it.  Its not that the guys who manage to portray something other than themselves are automatically going to be great thespians, or that the guys who always "typecast" as themselves are going to suck.  Some of the best players I've ever had are players who essentially always play themselves; whereas some of the worst, most annoying, most unbearable "actors" I've ever had in a game are those who always want to play the Radically Different.

Also, while Kyle points out that its not that easy to play something other than yourself, I would say that its also not that hard. It is, in fact, an essential talent of any GM. It just requires moving your own psyche/ego aside and entering this other way of thinking.

RPGPundit

Ugh, I hate it.

On an intellectual level I'm fine with it. Authors of both genders have to constantly write characters of the opposite gender in their books, and that's basically the same thing.

But I don't have to look at them.

I find it a HUGE distraction/disruption of my game immersion if I'm constantly having to remind myself that the Fatbeard across the table from me, with the Cheeto's stains on the too-small-for-his-belly t-shirt, is supposed to be a sexy Elven sorcerer.

So at the table I hate it. A lot. I won't do it, and I don't like it when other people do it. It creeps me out on some level.

In other gaming situations -console RPGs, MMOs, PbP, Skype games- I have no problem with it.

EDIT: I think a lot of my problem with gender-bending stems from the people I've played with who did it. The last dude to put on a fake falsetto at our gaming table really had an "Uncle Touchy" sort of vibe to begin with. This just pushed it right over the top.

Mine are about half and half.

Phaedra (elf invoker 5th), Sheena (tiefling rogue 7th), and Ionos (minotaur rogue 5th): all female.

Coppervault (dwarf rogue 4th), Frostbite (gnoll swordmage 3rd) and Mord (half orc warlord, 4th): all male.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;383716Mine are about half and half.

Phaedra (elf invoker 5th), Sheena (tiefling rogue 7th), and Ionos (minotaur rogue 5th): all female.

Coppervault (dwarf rogue 4th), Frostbite (gnoll swordmage 3rd) and Mord (half orc warlord, 4th): all male.

A Tiefling named Sheena??

Does she look like Tanya Roberts except with curvy horns?


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;383738A Tiefling named Sheena??

Does she look like Tanya Roberts except with curvy horns?


- Ed C.

More like Lori Petty in platform boots.

I sorta based her on the Angelina Jolie character Fox from Wanted, but she eventually turned into sort of Harley Quinn (with dual-wielded Katars- those punch dagger thingies). TV Tropes is a good resource for shorthanding characters, we just started using it for the upcoming Riverboat campaign. I searched around and found this page. That kinda describes Sheena.

Quote from: Atomic Scotsman;383713Ugh, I hate it.

On an intellectual level I'm fine with it. Authors of both genders have to constantly write characters of the opposite gender in their books, and that's basically the same thing.

But I don't have to look at them.

I find it a HUGE distraction/disruption of my game immersion if I'm constantly having to remind myself that the Fatbeard across the table from me, with the Cheeto's stains on the too-small-for-his-belly t-shirt, is supposed to be a sexy Elven sorcerer.

So at the table I hate it. A lot. I won't do it, and I don't like it when other people do it. It creeps me out on some level.

In other gaming situations -console RPGs, MMOs, PbP, Skype games- I have no problem with it.

EDIT: I think a lot of my problem with gender-bending stems from the people I've played with who did it. The last dude to put on a fake falsetto at our gaming table really had an "Uncle Touchy" sort of vibe to begin with. This just pushed it right over the top.

That's part of the reason I tend to restrict my cross-gender characters to chat-based games.

Quote from: Atomic Scotsman;383713Ugh, I hate it.

On an intellectual level I'm fine with it. Authors of both genders have to constantly write characters of the opposite gender in their books, and that's basically the same thing.

But I don't have to look at them.

I find it a HUGE distraction/disruption of my game immersion if I'm constantly having to remind myself that the Fatbeard across the table from me, with the Cheeto's stains on the too-small-for-his-belly t-shirt, is supposed to be a sexy Elven sorcerer.

So at the table I hate it. A lot. I won't do it, and I don't like it when other people do it. It creeps me out on some level.

In other gaming situations -console RPGs, MMOs, PbP, Skype games- I have no problem with it.

EDIT: I think a lot of my problem with gender-bending stems from the people I've played with who did it. The last dude to put on a fake falsetto at our gaming table really had an "Uncle Touchy" sort of vibe to begin with. This just pushed it right over the top.

Thanks for the answer, A.S.  You're not obligated to delve any more, obviously, but I'd be curious if you could unpack a little more what makes you uncomfortable.  It seems like attractiveness is important to the issue for you.  So a few questions about how you would feel under different circumstances?  

- What if a male GM plays a sexy elven sorceress NPC?  Would you have similar discomfort, but perhaps not to the same degree?
- What if the female PC wasn't attractive?  i.e. Someone plays a old witch or a butch, heavily-scarred warrior.  
- Is the player being a fatbeard relevant?  Would it be different if a good-looking, slender man were playing the sorceress?  
- What if the player were female but unattractive?  Would that have a similar uncomfortableness?  

Quote from: John MorrowWhile the variance may be great, certain body language is associate with each sex, which comes into play whenever there are cross-dressing scenes in movies, for example. Other than appearance, body language and voice inflection is what marks men as effeminate and women as butch, because they are showing body language and/or voice inflection normally associated with the other sex. Sure, there is variety but that variety clusters in certain ways such that particular types of body language and voice inflection are associated with one particular sex.

This is certainly true.  I would note further that body language and speech mannerisms are culturally dependent.  All cultures have mannerisms that distinguish masculine from feminine, but they aren't exactly the same mannerisms.  Even in fairly close cultures like within Europe, an Italian man may have some mannerisms that would be called feminine or gay in a British man.  

I think part of Kyle's point is that there are really a lot of differences in mannerisms - but many people care very strongly and very specifically about the few mannerisms that are markers for gender.

Quote from: jhkim;383782- What if a male GM plays a sexy elven sorceress NPC?  Would you have similar discomfort, but perhaps not to the same degree?
- What if the female PC wasn't attractive?  i.e. Someone plays a old witch or a butch, heavily-scarred warrior.  
- Is the player being a fatbeard relevant?  Would it be different if a good-looking, slender man were playing the sorceress?  
- What if the player were female but unattractive?  Would that have a similar uncomfortableness?  

I don't mind -it's an interesting topic.

My trite example of the Fatbeard was more a grab for a cheap laugh than anything. How attractive the person is is truly irrelevant.

I'll hit your questions in order.

1. It's assumed that the GM will take on many roles of both gender, and so it becomes a necessary mechanic to keep the game rolling.

Whereas a Player makes a conscious choice to gender bend. There's a part of me that always questions their motives in doing so.

If anyone's seen DORKNESS RISING, one of the guys plays a woman, and it's purely because he gets an adolescent quasi-sexual kick out of it.

Here in the big echo chamber of the Internet we discuss RPGs in fairly intellectual and academic manner. (Some times.) Some folks want to really explore the opposite gender as a creative exercise. But if I had to make a list out of all the guys I've ever RPed with, I would say that 98% of them would most likely be doing it because it fulfilled some quasi-sexual fantasy or so they could nudge me every five minutes and say "I've got tits."

2. If the female PC is not attractive or a slut, then I can feel pretty confident than the man playing her is in that camp who takes it as a creative and interesting exercise to play the other team. I might be wrong. But that would be my initial impression.

3. Fatbeardiness is irrelevant.

The point is: no, I can handle the big guy with the scraggly beard playing a female character -as long as I feel his motivations aren't creepy.

They usually seem to be though.

4. Ugly lady playing a hot chick? I'm an ugly dude who plays the dashing hero sometimes -that's what it's all about, right? But if you mean a woman playing a man, that tends to bother me a little less. Not from some homophobic angle -I know and love a fair number of gay men and women. That's never been an issue for me.

But I find myself, probably incorrectly, less likely to assume the worst of a female Player. In the same regard I feel like I'm less likely to find tentacle hentai etc. on their computers.

Now, objectively, I know that this is an oversimplification of what people are, but in my own anecdotal experience this is what I've seen.

That was a good post AS. I don't necessarily feel the same way, but I can respect your point of view and it rings a lot more true than the "men don't know how to play women well enough" argument, which given the standard of acting in your average roleplaying games seems a odd thing to get hung up about.

If you find it off-putting, you find it off-putting and that I can relate to. I for instance don't much care for profanities in games (so what the hell am I doing on this forum?).  I wouldn't kick a fuss of a fellow player felt it neccessary to curse like sailor in-character, but I would find it a little off-putting.

Soylent - you might like the new thread I started.

Atomic Scotsman (sort of ) and others.....
I might be called overweight and I do sport a beard - however I doubt I fall iunto the 'fatbeard' category. ('cuz I look damn good in a tuxedo...)

Anyway, back when I was running that GURPS:TRAVELLER campaign there was a new player to the group. His second or third session with us he decides to hit on a woman at a bar.

Normally not a problem with most players.

 Except this player had already said chauvinistic things and his character was saying the same sorts of things in an MCP -way. I could tell one of my players was uncomfortable with that. Hell I'm a guy that has to play female NPCs  - and I was uncomfortable with his style.

So...his character is in this Starport bar and he tries puck-up linbes and this woman NPC, who happens to also be a starship owner and captain. (If you have the book G:T FAR TRADER, he was hitting on Minko Blats described on page 95) She was unimpressed and very NOT interested in him and completely deflated him.
This all happened in conversation as we role-played the scene out.



Months later he didn't game with us any more because his work schedule changed. Thats okay I didn't want him back anyway.


I was later told by a player that she was quite happy that I handled him that way. Nothing extreme - just a plausible situation and bit of roleplay to show the guy - "hey, knock it off".


- Ed C.