TheRPGSite

Role Playing the Opposite Gender. Men playing women characters, women playing men characters.

Do you? How often?
Do you consider yourself any good at it? Why, or why not?

Do you know people who regularly play the opposite gender at the game table? Do they suck at it, or are they really good at it? What do you think about playing an opposite gender? Is it cool, or does it rub you the wrong way? Why?

Never had a problem with it, nor seen the big deal about it. My players do it all the time. The gay man at our table plays a better girl than the actual girls. Okay, that's not actually true, but he does it well.

Years ago I ran  a fantasy campaign where the player composition was three males and two females, and the character composition was one male and four females. And the only one playing the "chainmail bikini" stereotype was one of the female players.

I've never done it myself. One of the guys I play with almost always plays female characters. Don't know why exactly, he just seems to prefer it. It's not weird or strange, you hardly even notice during the game.

Most of my players, if they don't have a definite idea, roll a die for evens-odds as to which gender their characters take. That was always my practice, and it rubbed off on them. No big deal.

-clash

It happens, not incredibly often, have never ran into problems with it. I've never really had the desire to play one as a PC myself because I get enough of that GMing female NPCs.

Had one occassion when I was GMing a teenager who insisted that his PC was a well-endowed beautiful young woman ("She's hot! Imagine Brittney Speares with bigger tits! That's what I want her to look like!"). Adventures pretty much revolved around him using his PCs feminine wiles to con people out of their money or commit assinations amoung other crimes. After the second session, I began making it a habit of staring at the Player's chest whenever his PC was interacting with a male NPC. After the fourth session, he didn't want to play the character anymore and retired her.

I've had so many players its an amusing question. I usually prefer people play their own gender--because it allows me to keep pronouns straight.

In the many players I've had ones who do well, and ones who suck, I've had ones who enjoy it a great deal and ones who just try it for a lark, and never do it again.

I myself tend to to to not do so--I think its because my personal hero images are all male, despite loving to read stories of female heroes.


I've done it--and felt I did reasonably well, but then I would say that wouldn't I?

This thread again?

Yeah, I've played plenty of female characters. The question of whether or not I do it well is irrelevant. Can I play an Arthurian knight well? Can I play a Wookie well? Who knows? Who cares?

I guess if I were writing a serious piece of literature this might be a concern. But the when it comes to characterisation in roleplaying games the bar is pretty low; most of the time just having a personality puts your character ahead of the curve. And that is the way it should be. The day I get graded on how well I play my character is the day I'll go find a new hobby.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Role Playing the Opposite Gender. Men playing women characters, women playing men characters.

Do you? How often?
Do you consider yourself any good at it? Why, or why not?

Do you know people who regularly play the opposite gender at the game table? Do they suck at it, or are they really good at it? What do you think about playing an opposite gender? Is it cool, or does it rub you the wrong way? Why?

As a GM I often have to play female NPCs or even recurring allies or friends of the player characters. Some game sessions I'm more successful than other times at portraying women characters.

When the GURPS: TRAVELLER campaign was going on , one of my players complimented me that I pplayed a blievable woman starship crewmember better than many women players that she has seen.


- Ed C.




...and yes we've done some version of this thread topic in the past ...it might have been Pundit who started that one - maybe about two years ago...

Quote from: Soylent Green;382591This thread again?

Nobody's forcing you to read the thread, dude. If you don't care, you can skip the thread.

It's fairly rare at my table, since the passage of the Treaty of Willendorf that allowed women to game with us.  Every now and then a lad will create a lass.  I don't find it that distracting.

Dangerous territory.
 
Surely the first question you need to ask yourself, is "Is my character going to be any different is they are of the opposite sex to me?"
 
If you arent going to do anything special with the character that couldnt be done as your own sex, then why bother. All it can do it upset the other players and GM if done wrong.

Lawbag,

 Except that the games I often run are Sci Fi and probably set in the future. One of the often assumed features ofr that kind of setting is that women are in a bigger variety of jobs and military positions than they are today.

Especially with settings like TRAVELLER or STAR TREK its part of what is expected.

As a result the GM will likely often play women NPCs.

 Now as for my players?

I generally am more comfortable with them playing the gender they are in real life. The one exception was a young lady that played an andogynous rock band musician that was a passenger on the planet-hopping magic bus. Technically that character was male - the way she played it , it kind of worked.

- Ed C.

The hard thing is playing females who are in relationships with PCs and have those relationships being believable. I managed it once excpetionally well in a James Bond Campaign. The agent PC had been with this one female foil for three missions he really was smitten and when she was killed, as was inevitable, he stopped talking. Totally an hour and a half of silence. Until the murderer was caught and locked in the ship's brig. Then he told the guards to leave took out a gun and shot the guy in cold blood 4 times. Then he resigned.

I am more comfortable playing female characters in a chatroom based game. It gives me a sense of distance, I guess.
In a real life group, I would feel more self-conscious.

Brian

Never seen any cause to do it; it just seems like a particularly tricky thing to track (so many fiddly customs and such), which I wouldn't get much out of.

A few of my players have done so from time to time, normally when they had a concept that only really worked if they played the other way round.  For example, one of the women I game with regularly is currently playing a male eunuch in a medieval game (I'm a player in that one, too).  And it works well.

But it's a pretty rare thing.

Oh, and there was a game where the ladies of the group got together and collectively played the barbarian in the joke-adventure Pleasure Prison Of The B'thuvian Demon Whore.  Which was hilarious.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;382630Oh, and there was a game where the ladies of the group got together and collectively played the barbarian in the joke-adventure Pleasure Prison Of The B'thuvian Demon Whore.  Which was hilarious.

LOL Yeah. Tom Lommel's a good friend of mine. He's playing the DM in the original vid, Fear of Girls (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7521044027821122670#), from which the module came to be. That's awesome, hilarious stuff.

Generally I discourage it with a couple of exceptions;

A> If everyone in the group is doing it. (and I mean everyone)

B> If the lady wants to do it.

The reason for B is I could understand that perhaps someone doesn't want to put up with (caricaturized) bullshit that they already put up with in real life.

Case in point, my lady wife played a game , she played her same sex. Because she wanted to be a suave pirate she got called a slut by the gamemaster before the second session.

(who rightfully stepped up and said he shouldn't have said that ,etc ,etc. But still it happened).

I could see not wanting to put up with that.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Do you?

Yes.

Quote from: Benoist;382550How often?

Every time I run a game, of course.

Seriously, are there referees out there who fill their worlds with nothing but same-gender characters?

And I've run one or two female player characters over the years, but the overwhelming majority were male.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Do you consider yourself any good at it?

Never had any complaints.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Why, or why not?

I start with wearing the appropriate undergarments, and the rest just kinda falls into place.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Do you know people who regularly play the opposite gender at the game table?

I have over the years.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Do they suck at it, or are they really good at it?

Most were fine, a couple were odd, one was disgusting.

Quote from: Benoist;382550What do you think about playing an opposite gender?

*shrug*.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Is it cool, or does it rub you the wrong way?

I don't have strong feelings about it one way or another, to be honest.

Except for the undergarments part. Provided they rub me the right way, of course.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Why?

It's a roleplaying game. Gender is part of the role. So play the role.

Playing female characters has never held any special allure for me as a player, but I try to fill my game-worlds with women who are believable and interesting. Usually I end up basing the characterization on a woman I know, such as a friend, a co-worker, or an ex - the latter work well for villains - and play that person as the character. It's a handy shortcut for me.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Do you? How often?

I don't think I've ever played a female PC.  However, I usually GM, so I've role-played quite a few female NPCs.

QuoteDo you consider yourself any good at it? Why, or why not?

I guess I'm probably about average.  I wouldn't say I'm particularly better or worse at playing females than I am at playing males.  For the level of role-playing and character development we're talking about, I don't think any deep or nuanced insight into female vs. male psyche is required (or beneficial).

QuoteDo you know people who regularly play the opposite gender at the game table?

Nope.

QuoteWhat do you think about playing an opposite gender? Is it cool, or does it rub you the wrong way? Why?

I'm cool with it unless they're creepy or weird about it, making a big deal of gender and sexuality all the time and trying to push an agenda.  Then it would annoy me.

Hey, I did play that nun in the Arkham Horror boardgame.  I had the shotgun, some whiskey, and a motorcycle.  And I was blessed.  It was pretty cool.

Quote from: Benoist;382550Role Playing the Opposite Gender. Men playing women characters, women playing men characters.

Do you? How often?

Rarely, but it's happened. Generally for me I'll do it if there's a fun twist involved that defines the character (i.e. the small woman who's actually a physical powerhouse) or if there's something fun in the game that requires the character be female (Burning Wheel has some pretty cool Lifepaths that require the character be female.)

QuoteDo you consider yourself any good at it? Why, or why not?

Not especially good, but not especially bad. Mostly, I'm okay to do it in fairly gender-neutral contexts, if that makes sense. In settings or situations where gender isn't a non issue. If it was a touchy issue for any reason, I probably wouldn't be that interested, for fear or botching it or trivializing an important issue. The other way I've played it is to have the woman PC simply be strange or odd enough that gender is a secondary issue.

The one exception to the above was a con game of Kagematsu, which I was hesitant about going, but turned out fun. However I did consciously dodge the sexual aspect of that game by making a character for whom that was not directly an issue--an elderly grandmother type.

Quote from: Silverlion;382588I usually prefer people play their own gender--because it allows me to keep pronouns straight.

This.  I have no problem with a GM playing female characters and have played through romances both as a GM running a female NPC and as a player with the GM running a female NPC, but it just seems to make things a lot easier in terms of remembering pronouns and visualizing characters if the players are playing characters that match their own sex.

I GM a lot, so of course, I play everything.  When a PC, I usually have male characters, but sometimes will have a female if a concept hits me or I randomly roll a female character.  I think all of my players have done it at one time or another, never met someone who was weird about it or was trying to push some social agenda.

Fundamentally, there´s no problem whatsoever. In reality, there are no good reasons to play an opposite gender, if the game is worth anything in the first place. From that it follows, that if someone wants to play the opposite gender, something is rotten:

1) the game, for making sex and sexual orientation anything even worth considering
or
2) the player, who was 'malicious' intents of making the game more about the sex and sexual orientation of the character than is warranted

Quote from: Settembrini;382772Fundamentally, there´s no problem whatsoever. In reality, there are no good reasons to play an opposite gender, if the game is worth anything in the first place. From that it follows, that if someone wants to play the opposite gender, something is rotten:

1) the game, for making sex and sexual orientation anything even worth considering
or
2) the player, who was 'malicious' intents of making the game more about the sex and sexual orientation of the character than is warranted

I disagree, to an extent. If you have a very impersonal, goal-orientated game, like a straight-up dungeon crawl, then I'd agree with you. Those games exist and can be a lot of fun.

But if the game has a lot of characterization, then gender becomes more of an issue. Men and women are different. Even in an action style game, a bad-ass action woman will have a different feel than her male counterpart. People enjoyed watching Charlie's Angels for a reason.

A player who wants to play a female character is, I agree, often "malicious." There are lots of dudes out there who want to play out their sexual fantasy of a Lesbian Stripper Ninja, or their hate fantasy of showing how bitchy all women are, or they only play women as characters in porn movies.

I like playing female characters, because they are a bit different. You have to play something "different" in a way that is much more real than playing an elf or robot.
But, as I've said before, I don't usually do it in live games. It feels a bit embarrassing and I get self-conscious. I generally reserve it for chat based games, where I have a bit of distance, and can feel more like an author writing a character.

Brian

Quote from: Benoist;382550Role Playing the Opposite Gender. Men playing women characters, women playing men characters.

Do you? How often?
Do you consider yourself any good at it? Why, or why not?

Do you know people who regularly play the opposite gender at the game table? Do they suck at it, or are they really good at it? What do you think about playing an opposite gender? Is it cool, or does it rub you the wrong way? Why?

I can't remember the last time I played a female PC, though I'm sure I did it some time. But I'm not interested. Nothign against it, though.

I have some girlsd who like more to play male characters when playing historical games where sexism may be a pain in the ass, for example, my last RQ Vikings game. Two of the girls wanted to play warrior types, so they got guys. Not a big deal. They played them right.

Over all, I have nothing against it, it usually goes well. It happens rarely, to be true.

Quote from: Settembrini;382772Fundamentally, there´s no problem whatsoever. In reality, there are no good reasons to play an opposite gender, if the game is worth anything in the first place. From that it follows, that if someone wants to play the opposite gender, something is rotten:

1) the game, for making sex and sexual orientation anything even worth considering
or
2) the player, who was 'malicious' intents of making the game more about the sex and sexual orientation of the character than is warranted

Oh please, there are plenty of good reasons to play a character of the opposite sex without there being something rotten.

My last female character was an elderly Bene Geserit in Dune. On the surface she acted like a sweet old lady but deep inside she was totally ruthless. Simple concept, but it worked.

Did I capture "elderly lady" to perfection? Probably not. Was the characterisation as shallow and amateurish as any of my male, alien and robotic characters? You bet!

Well, you can´t play a male Bene Gesserit, can you?

The rotten part is exactly the part where the game itself is "about characterisation", or characterisation plays a major role. It´s an unhealthy element in the game best downplayed, ignored or de-emphasised.

In such an envioronment, playing female characters (because that´s what we REALLY are talking about) is okay for men.

My ex-wife used to play male characters all the time. But eventually she came out as transgender and is now living as a male. :)

Quote from: Settembrini;382772In reality, there are no good reasons to play an opposite gender, if the game is worth anything in the first place. From that it follows, that if someone wants to play the opposite gender, something is rotten:

1) the game, for making sex and sexual orientation anything even worth considering

So you are saying that any game that has a setting where males and females have different social roles and expectations is rotten and not worth anything and that any historical or quasi-historical game setting should always have anachronistic indifference to the sex and sexual orientation of the people living in the setting?  And no game set in a historical or quasi-historical setting should exhibit enough "characterization" that it ever matters?  Huh?

Sort of. If you want to explore feminism in a medieval context, your game is doomed, I´d say.

I´d really want to highlight that women can play men with little bagagge in a medieval game. But if a man INSISTS on playing a female character in a medieval campaign, you are in for trouble.

Only if you have a GM who can't wrap his mind around the concept.

There is no worthwhile concept to explore. Especially not if one player insists on exploring it in a historical game.

To the OP - I play female characters semi-regularly, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the time.  I think I do a good job - I've played in lots of games of varying genders with no complaints and fair praise.  

Quote from: John Morrow;382702This.  I have no problem with a GM playing female characters and have played through romances both as a GM running a female NPC and as a player with the GM running a female NPC, but it just seems to make things a lot easier in terms of remembering pronouns and visualizing characters if the players are playing characters that match their own sex.

I'd agree that it makes things easier to visualize if the PCs are closer to their characters in whatever ways.  However, I think that requiring more effort and imagination isn't necessarily a bad thing.  

For me, one reason why I play fantasy games is precisely for the reason of having to use my imagination more.  In that way, I sometime find something like pronouns to be useful - it means that there's a hook that reminds me that I'm talking about the character, which may be quite distinct from the player.  Though I think that accents are generally a bad idea, I think other things like certain mannerisms or ways of speaking can be good hooks that remind everyone that it is the character talking.  

Quote from: Settembrini;382779The rotten part is exactly the part where the game itself is "about characterisation", or characterisation plays a major role. It´s an unhealthy element in the game best downplayed, ignored or de-emphasised.

In such an envioronment, playing female characters (because that´s what we REALLY are talking about) is okay for men.

As for what we're really talking about, I think it's really that your objections are to men playing women characters - or perhaps to there being female characters at all.  That's not the whole of the topic, though.  

I'd like to unpack the "unhealthy" aspect, though.  Given that I play and run lots of games that emphasize characterization, say, what do you think the negative effect on my health is?

Sure, I've played female characters. Very badly. But I'm a crap roleplayer, all my characters are roleplayed badly. So what? It's not auditions for the national drama academy, it's an rpg.

We get a bit of a clash when a big fatbeard middleaged gamer wants to play a slim pretty young woman, but we get the same clash when the guy wants to play an athletic male warrior. But if we're going to prohibit people from roleplaying characters very different to them, that's going to limit our adventures somewhat. So we'll always have that clash between the appearance and demeanour and capabilities of the player, and those of the character. That's gaming.

I don't care about fidelity to history. I'm not a railroading GM, so as soon as the PCs show up history is fucked anyway, they'll change it. We're not roleplaying a documentary. The campaign setting may vaguely resemble history, but that's just a coincidence.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;382939We get a bit of a clash when a big fatbeard middleaged gamer wants to play a slim pretty young woman, but we get the same clash when the guy wants to play an athletic male warrior.

For me, it's not really the same because it has to do with the voice and body language rather than the body type.  That said, it can help a great deal for me if the person playing a character of the opposite sex (be it player or GM) does an appropriate vocal shift and conveys the appropriate body language and the romances I've role-played through where the GM was playing a cross-sex character involved GMs willing to do appropriate voice and body language for the characters.

Quote from: jhkim;382931I'd agree that it makes things easier to visualize if the PCs are closer to their characters in whatever ways.  However, I think that requiring more effort and imagination isn't necessarily a bad thing.

It's not necessarily a bad thing, but in my experience, the negatives outweigh the positives and it's effort that could better be spent on other things.  And while it would be nice if everyone was always at 100% for every session, the reality is that people sometimes have bad days or get tired after playing for 10 hours (my group regularly did 10-12 hour session) and pronouns are one of those things that people inevitably trip up on and it's disruptive to immersion for me when people start getting them wrong.

Unhealthy for the game. In fact, most set-ups trying to be more about characterisation turn out to be less of everything except boredom.

The fact alone that Mr. Kim felt the need to tell us he regularly plays women and gets praise for that...oh man that´s fucked up game-wise right there. I got praise for repeatedly playing halflings with a swiss dialect. So what? Is the game about swiss dialect impersonations? Even though a lota people laughed? No!

And gender issues are not played for laughs, especially by the Mr. Kim kind of Alan Alda's. So you are not even adding humour while you force everyone to play characterisation-game instead of the REAL adventure game.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;382939Sure, I've played female characters. Very badly. But I'm a crap roleplayer, all my characters are roleplayed badly. So what? It's not auditions for the national drama academy, it's an rpg.

We get a bit of a clash when a big fatbeard middleaged gamer wants to play a slim pretty young woman, but we get the same clash when the guy wants to play an athletic male warrior. But if we're going to prohibit people from roleplaying characters very different to them, that's going to limit our adventures somewhat. So we'll always have that clash between the appearance and demeanour and capabilities of the player, and those of the character. That's gaming.

I don't care about fidelity to history. I'm not a railroading GM, so as soon as the PCs show up history is fucked anyway, they'll change it. We're not roleplaying a documentary. The campaign setting may vaguely resemble history, but that's just a coincidence.

Hear, hear! :-)

In my games, usually, the men play male characters and the women play female characters. There have been a handful of exceptions over the years.

RPGPundit

I've run very few games over the years that didn't have a female player in the group. While women have played men on occasion, and have done it OK, I tended to feel that they didn't have the same sense of engagement they have when playing a female character. And the men have tended to play men.

My wife really can't get into playing male characters - aside from one memorable insane English West Country pirate. However, she's fine running male NPCs as a GM.

I think my female NPCs are OK, but I don't feel the need to have a female PC.

Perhaps we're too unadventurous?

Just to be clear - it's also my experience that most of the time people (including myself) play their own gender.  I do know a few women who most often play male characters, and a few men who most often play women - but they're the exceptions.  

Generally, though, cross-gender play isn't an issue.  Appropriateness of behavior is an issue - which has to do with the situation.  For example, if we're playing a James Bond 007 game, then there are going to be sexy foils with suggestive names, and it's totally reasonable for your character to be a sexy hunk or babe.  We're not going to dwell on it, but it's a fun part of the game.  On the other hand, there are plenty of games where that isn't appropriate regardless of what gender the player is.  

Quote from: Settembrini;382961Unhealthy for the game. In fact, most set-ups trying to be more about characterisation turn out to be less of everything except boredom.

The fact alone that Mr. Kim felt the need to tell us he regularly plays women and gets praise for that...oh man that´s fucked up game-wise right there. I got praise for repeatedly playing halflings with a swiss dialect. So what? Is the game about swiss dialect impersonations? Even though a lota people laughed? No!

And gender issues are not played for laughs, especially by the Mr. Kim kind of Alan Alda's. So you are not even adding humour while you force everyone to play characterisation-game instead of the REAL adventure game.

I don't even understand this.  What the fuck does Alan Alda have to do with anything?  And how are you concluding about lack of humor in my games?

Quote from: Settembrini;382804If you want to explore feminism in a medieval context, your game is doomed, I´d say.

I'm not sure what you consider to be "exploring feminism" in a gaming context, but playing adventurous women in a historical setting is quite reasonable (http://www.lothene.org/others/women.html).

As a writer, an occasional actor, and a hopefully soon to be future filmmaker, I make characters for RPGs the way I'd make characters for any other creative work.  I have a concept in mind, and whatever sex the character is comes from whatever feels right for the character.  Since I'm not playing it for an audience, the gender mismatch is seldom an issue, so I just go with what makes sense.

Sometimes this means a male, sometimes a female, it's all about the image that sits in my mind.  I don't worry about any other consideration, I especially don't worry about sexual attitudes because sex has no place in any of my games, nor do I worry about whether this or that character will fit in with anyone else's ideas of what a gender "is like" or what's an appropriate portrayal in light of modern feminism.

I just make characters and try to make them feel believable to me, because at the end of the day, everything I create is first for my own entertainment because I'm the only judge I can rely on, and I find if one is true to oneself the rest will follow.

Quote from: John Morrow;382951For me, it's not really the same because it has to do with the voice and body language rather than the body type.  

The variance between individuals in voice and body language is much greater than the variance between genders. Just consider Kevin Spacey doing impersonations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKKDKAKNH-k) of Al Pacino, Christopher Walken and so on. You don't realise just how distinctive those individuals are until you see one person trying to do several of them.

Good acting is hard. Most of us are bad at it, and it doesn't matter whether we're Bloodaxe the Skull-Cleaver who happens to be a boy like us, or Sima McBeard, who is a dwarf but a woman - usually we're just playing ourselves with a few key differences, like having decent agility.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383484The variance between individuals in voice and body language is much greater than the variance between genders. Just consider Kevin Spacey doing impersonations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKKDKAKNH-k) of Al Pacino, Christopher Walken and so on. You don't realise just how distinctive those individuals are until you see one person trying to do several of them.

Good acting is hard. Most of us are bad at it, and it doesn't matter whether we're Bloodaxe the Skull-Cleaver who happens to be a boy like us, or Sima McBeard, who is a dwarf but a woman - usually we're just playing ourselves with a few key differences, like having decent agility.

I think you've got a point there. I remember seeing an episode of the old batman series where frank gorshin did an impression of charlie chaplin, and since chaplin was a silent movie star mostly the riddle gorshin was playing did him as a silent character, and it really came down to the body language and motions that made his brief chaplin impression memorable.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383484The variance between individuals in voice and body language is much greater than the variance between genders. Just consider Kevin Spacey doing impersonations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKKDKAKNH-k) of Al Pacino, Christopher Walken and so on. You don't realise just how distinctive those individuals are until you see one person trying to do several of them.

While the variance may be great, certain body language is associate with each sex, which comes into play whenever there are cross-dressing scenes in movies, for example.  Other than appearance, body language and voice inflection is what marks men as effeminate and women as butch, because they are showing body language and/or voice inflection normally associated with the other sex.  Sure, there is variety but that variety clusters in certain ways such that particular types of body language and voice inflection are associated with one particular sex.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;383484Good acting is hard. Most of us are bad at it, and it doesn't matter whether we're Bloodaxe the Skull-Cleaver who happens to be a boy like us, or Sima McBeard, who is a dwarf but a woman - usually we're just playing ourselves with a few key differences, like having decent agility.

My experience is that acting skill varies widely by player, but I've played with plenty of people who do a decent job of it including the last D&D game I played in, not with my regular group, in which everyone spoke using in character accents and body language and emoted appropriately in character.

Okay even assuming dudes can't play convicning girls and vice versa and that this is somehow harmful to the overall quality of roleplaying game, where do you draw the line?

Are we going to say that white guys can't play black dudes? Or that uptight Brits should not be allowed to play Aussies or Brazilians because they just ain't cool enough? Should the GM insist for audtions before the game  to ensure that everyone around the table can get the righht body language and perfect accents for their characters?

I wouldn't hold auditions, or draw any lines. I expect it to be crap. It's a roleplaying game, not an Academy of Drama.

I just ask that people play different characters from time to time. If the character is always the same, it gets dull.

   "Don't let yourself get too worried about all this talk about role-playing. While it can be great fun to escape into a new character, he or she will still have an awful lot of you in them. As you must know by now, for we've said it often enough, the ultimate object of all this is for everyone to have fun, not to recreate some form of high dramatic art."
- Dungeoneer, by Steve Jackson [UK] and Ian Livingstone

Al Pacino is always Al Pacino, his mannerisms and tones of speech the same in every movie. Christopher Walken is always Christopher Walken. And so on. They are all very, very recognisable by the way they move and speak. If people with years of dramatic training paid millions of dollars to do it STILL can't change their basic mannerisms and intonation, I don't see why we expect a bunch of cheetos-eating dice-rolling gamers around a dinner table to do it.

I roleplay. Badly. I'm a ham actor. It's always over-the-top. And that's fun.

With the people who claim, "if you can't roleplay it well, you shouldn't roleplay it, and few males can roleplay females well and vice versa," there's always a contradiction - the GM. The GM has to roleplay a zillion different characters. If the GM's allowed to roleplay some of them badly, why can't a player? If we have an all-female group, should all our games be set in a nunnery? If all-male, should they all be set in an infantry unit in WWI? Oh no, a PC was wounded, and in the hospital there are female nurses, what to do?

Relax. Accept that you'll roleplay badly, whether your character is a man, woman, orc, elf, Vargr or whatever. Ham it up. Have fun with it.

the line is pretty easy to determine.

If I am offended or uncomfortible with something and I'm gming it doesn't get in. If it somehow got in and is now making me offended or uncomfortible it goes.

At home they call me the petite tyrant but really the logic is, if I am offended/uncomfortible chances are pretty good someone else in the group is and thats more than enough reason to get rid of something.

Quote from: Logos7;383616the line is pretty easy to determine.

If I am offended or uncomfortible with something and I'm gming it doesn't get in. If it somehow got in and is now making me offended or uncomfortible it goes.

At home they call me the petite tyrant but really the logic is, if I am offended/uncomfortible chances are pretty good someone else in the group is and thats more than enough reason to get rid of something.

OK, that's pretty similar to my own view - but the next logical question is, what makes you offended or uncomfortable?  

This seems to be the real core of disagreement.  We've heard horror stories about some juvenile male player who creates a lesbian stripper ninja as a PC.  On the other hand, I've also experienced players who were uncomfortable with almost any cross-gender play - as well as some who were uncomfortable with female characters and/or female players.  So I don't automatically side with the person who claims offense.  If a player claims to be uncomfortable simply with there being a woman in the group - then they'll be the one to leave.  There needs to be some legitimate reason for offense.  

I don't think I'm ever offended by play being cross-gender.  I could be offended by certain characters and the way they are played, but that's regardless of the gender of the player.  i.e. The lesbian stripper ninja would likely be offensive to me regardless of whether the player was a man or a woman.

There are two different factors at play here:

1. Playing yourself (or a dream-version of yourself) in an RPG.
2. Poor acting.

Those are two completely different things.
There are actors who essentially play themselves a lot of times, and they're BRILLIANT actors, and there are actors who play themselves and they are AWFUL actors.

From my experience, there are plenty of gamers who do play essentially themselves, every time they play.  There are also gamers who actually play a wide variety of characters who are not at all like themselves.
The thing is, about half of either are awful at it.  Its not that the guys who manage to portray something other than themselves are automatically going to be great thespians, or that the guys who always "typecast" as themselves are going to suck.  Some of the best players I've ever had are players who essentially always play themselves; whereas some of the worst, most annoying, most unbearable "actors" I've ever had in a game are those who always want to play the Radically Different.

Also, while Kyle points out that its not that easy to play something other than yourself, I would say that its also not that hard. It is, in fact, an essential talent of any GM. It just requires moving your own psyche/ego aside and entering this other way of thinking.

RPGPundit

Ugh, I hate it.

On an intellectual level I'm fine with it. Authors of both genders have to constantly write characters of the opposite gender in their books, and that's basically the same thing.

But I don't have to look at them.

I find it a HUGE distraction/disruption of my game immersion if I'm constantly having to remind myself that the Fatbeard across the table from me, with the Cheeto's stains on the too-small-for-his-belly t-shirt, is supposed to be a sexy Elven sorcerer.

So at the table I hate it. A lot. I won't do it, and I don't like it when other people do it. It creeps me out on some level.

In other gaming situations -console RPGs, MMOs, PbP, Skype games- I have no problem with it.

EDIT: I think a lot of my problem with gender-bending stems from the people I've played with who did it. The last dude to put on a fake falsetto at our gaming table really had an "Uncle Touchy" sort of vibe to begin with. This just pushed it right over the top.

Mine are about half and half.

Phaedra (elf invoker 5th), Sheena (tiefling rogue 7th), and Ionos (minotaur rogue 5th): all female.

Coppervault (dwarf rogue 4th), Frostbite (gnoll swordmage 3rd) and Mord (half orc warlord, 4th): all male.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;383716Mine are about half and half.

Phaedra (elf invoker 5th), Sheena (tiefling rogue 7th), and Ionos (minotaur rogue 5th): all female.

Coppervault (dwarf rogue 4th), Frostbite (gnoll swordmage 3rd) and Mord (half orc warlord, 4th): all male.

A Tiefling named Sheena??

Does she look like Tanya Roberts except with curvy horns?


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;383738A Tiefling named Sheena??

Does she look like Tanya Roberts except with curvy horns?


- Ed C.

More like Lori Petty in platform boots.

I sorta based her on the Angelina Jolie character Fox from Wanted, but she eventually turned into sort of Harley Quinn (with dual-wielded Katars- those punch dagger thingies). TV Tropes is a good resource for shorthanding characters, we just started using it for the upcoming Riverboat campaign. I searched around and found this page.  (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LittleMissBadass) That kinda describes Sheena.

Quote from: Atomic Scotsman;383713Ugh, I hate it.

On an intellectual level I'm fine with it. Authors of both genders have to constantly write characters of the opposite gender in their books, and that's basically the same thing.

But I don't have to look at them.

I find it a HUGE distraction/disruption of my game immersion if I'm constantly having to remind myself that the Fatbeard across the table from me, with the Cheeto's stains on the too-small-for-his-belly t-shirt, is supposed to be a sexy Elven sorcerer.

So at the table I hate it. A lot. I won't do it, and I don't like it when other people do it. It creeps me out on some level.

In other gaming situations -console RPGs, MMOs, PbP, Skype games- I have no problem with it.

EDIT: I think a lot of my problem with gender-bending stems from the people I've played with who did it. The last dude to put on a fake falsetto at our gaming table really had an "Uncle Touchy" sort of vibe to begin with. This just pushed it right over the top.

That's part of the reason I tend to restrict my cross-gender characters to chat-based games.

Quote from: Atomic Scotsman;383713Ugh, I hate it.

On an intellectual level I'm fine with it. Authors of both genders have to constantly write characters of the opposite gender in their books, and that's basically the same thing.

But I don't have to look at them.

I find it a HUGE distraction/disruption of my game immersion if I'm constantly having to remind myself that the Fatbeard across the table from me, with the Cheeto's stains on the too-small-for-his-belly t-shirt, is supposed to be a sexy Elven sorcerer.

So at the table I hate it. A lot. I won't do it, and I don't like it when other people do it. It creeps me out on some level.

In other gaming situations -console RPGs, MMOs, PbP, Skype games- I have no problem with it.

EDIT: I think a lot of my problem with gender-bending stems from the people I've played with who did it. The last dude to put on a fake falsetto at our gaming table really had an "Uncle Touchy" sort of vibe to begin with. This just pushed it right over the top.

Thanks for the answer, A.S.  You're not obligated to delve any more, obviously, but I'd be curious if you could unpack a little more what makes you uncomfortable.  It seems like attractiveness is important to the issue for you.  So a few questions about how you would feel under different circumstances?  

- What if a male GM plays a sexy elven sorceress NPC?  Would you have similar discomfort, but perhaps not to the same degree?
- What if the female PC wasn't attractive?  i.e. Someone plays a old witch or a butch, heavily-scarred warrior.  
- Is the player being a fatbeard relevant?  Would it be different if a good-looking, slender man were playing the sorceress?  
- What if the player were female but unattractive?  Would that have a similar uncomfortableness?  

Quote from: John MorrowWhile the variance may be great, certain body language is associate with each sex, which comes into play whenever there are cross-dressing scenes in movies, for example. Other than appearance, body language and voice inflection is what marks men as effeminate and women as butch, because they are showing body language and/or voice inflection normally associated with the other sex. Sure, there is variety but that variety clusters in certain ways such that particular types of body language and voice inflection are associated with one particular sex.

This is certainly true.  I would note further that body language and speech mannerisms are culturally dependent.  All cultures have mannerisms that distinguish masculine from feminine, but they aren't exactly the same mannerisms.  Even in fairly close cultures like within Europe, an Italian man may have some mannerisms that would be called feminine or gay in a British man.  

I think part of Kyle's point is that there are really a lot of differences in mannerisms - but many people care very strongly and very specifically about the few mannerisms that are markers for gender.

Quote from: jhkim;383782- What if a male GM plays a sexy elven sorceress NPC?  Would you have similar discomfort, but perhaps not to the same degree?
- What if the female PC wasn't attractive?  i.e. Someone plays a old witch or a butch, heavily-scarred warrior.  
- Is the player being a fatbeard relevant?  Would it be different if a good-looking, slender man were playing the sorceress?  
- What if the player were female but unattractive?  Would that have a similar uncomfortableness?  

I don't mind -it's an interesting topic.

My trite example of the Fatbeard was more a grab for a cheap laugh than anything. How attractive the person is is truly irrelevant.

I'll hit your questions in order.

1. It's assumed that the GM will take on many roles of both gender, and so it becomes a necessary mechanic to keep the game rolling.

Whereas a Player makes a conscious choice to gender bend. There's a part of me that always questions their motives in doing so.

If anyone's seen DORKNESS RISING, one of the guys plays a woman, and it's purely because he gets an adolescent quasi-sexual kick out of it.

Here in the big echo chamber of the Internet we discuss RPGs in fairly intellectual and academic manner. (Some times.) Some folks want to really explore the opposite gender as a creative exercise. But if I had to make a list out of all the guys I've ever RPed with, I would say that 98% of them would most likely be doing it because it fulfilled some quasi-sexual fantasy or so they could nudge me every five minutes and say "I've got tits."

2. If the female PC is not attractive or a slut, then I can feel pretty confident than the man playing her is in that camp who takes it as a creative and interesting exercise to play the other team. I might be wrong. But that would be my initial impression.

3. Fatbeardiness is irrelevant. :D

The point is: no, I can handle the big guy with the scraggly beard playing a female character -as long as I feel his motivations aren't creepy.

They usually seem to be though.

4. Ugly lady playing a hot chick? I'm an ugly dude who plays the dashing hero sometimes -that's what it's all about, right? But if you mean a woman playing a man, that tends to bother me a little less. Not from some homophobic angle -I know and love a fair number of gay men and women. That's never been an issue for me.

But I find myself, probably incorrectly, less likely to assume the worst of a female Player. In the same regard I feel like I'm less likely to find tentacle hentai etc. on their computers. :)

Now, objectively, I know that this is an oversimplification of what people are, but in my own anecdotal experience this is what I've seen.

That was a good post AS. I don't necessarily feel the same way, but I can respect your point of view and it rings a lot more true than the "men don't know how to play women well enough" argument, which given the standard of acting in your average roleplaying games seems a odd thing to get hung up about.

If you find it off-putting, you find it off-putting and that I can relate to. I for instance don't much care for profanities in games (so what the hell am I doing on this forum?).  I wouldn't kick a fuss of a fellow player felt it neccessary to curse like sailor in-character, but I would find it a little off-putting.

Soylent - you might like the new thread I started.

Atomic Scotsman (sort of ) and others.....
I might be called overweight and I do sport a beard - however I doubt I fall iunto the 'fatbeard' category. ('cuz I look damn good in a tuxedo...)

Anyway, back when I was running that GURPS:TRAVELLER campaign there was a new player to the group. His second or third session with us he decides to hit on a woman at a bar.

Normally not a problem with most players.

 Except this player had already said chauvinistic things and his character was saying the same sorts of things in an MCP -way. I could tell one of my players was uncomfortable with that. Hell I'm a guy that has to play female NPCs  - and I was uncomfortable with his style.

So...his character is in this Starport bar and he tries puck-up linbes and this woman NPC, who happens to also be a starship owner and captain. (If you have the book G:T FAR TRADER, he was hitting on Minko Blats described on page 95) She was unimpressed and very NOT interested in him and completely deflated him.
This all happened in conversation as we role-played the scene out.



Months later he didn't game with us any more because his work schedule changed. Thats okay I didn't want him back anyway.


I was later told by a player that she was quite happy that I handled him that way. Nothing extreme - just a plausible situation and bit of roleplay to show the guy - "hey, knock it off".


- Ed C.

Noticed and posted, Koltar.

Just to add, one of the first very first characters I ever played, was a female.  I'd just joined a roleplaying club out of curiosity and the GM there casually handed me a pre-gen of a female wizard and that was what I played.  It was only years later I discovered that some people would might have had a problem with that. I don't know, maybe having gotten into rolepalying once I was alreayd an adult made a differnce as well, but the gender issue never phased me.

For the record, if anyone still has the 1st edtion of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, my character was the pregenerated character called Wanda that came with the adventure at the back of the book. She went on the play the Shadows over Bogenhaven adventure and I think she was one of the few who actually survived.

Quote from: Soylent Green;383810That was a good post AS. I don't necessarily feel the same way, but I can respect your point of view and it rings a lot more true than the "men don't know how to play women well enough" argument, which given the standard of acting in your average roleplaying games seems a odd thing to get hung up about.

Thanks. And I'm not saying my point of view is the right one. It just is what it is. I think it's along the lines of your opinion on profanity.

As far as dudes not being able to RP women or the other way around -I always find that a silly argument to make. I don't know what life for a Jedi or Ranger is like, but I can fake it in a game. Gender's basically the same that way.

And yeah, I've yet to meet a single RPer who could act in any manner that i would recognize as "good". If I can do a horrible Scotish accent for my dwarf, why can't I totally botch it at a female dwarf. :D

Quote from: Koltar;383819Soylent - you might like the new thread I started.

Atomic Scotsman (sort of ) and others.....
I might be called overweight and I do sport a beard - however I doubt I fall iunto the 'fatbeard' category.

I too sport a beard and more than a couple extra pounds. :P

I meant "generic socially awkward, hygienically challenged, horrible RPG guy" stereotype when I used the term Fatbeard earlier.

I hope you didn't think I meant you or anyone specifically!?!  :eek:

See, guys? I knew this was worth talking about. Again. :)

Quote from: Benoist;383891See, guys? I knew this was worth talking about. Again. :)

Hehe, fair point. :-)

Quote from: Atomic Scotsman;383802Whereas a Player makes a conscious choice to gender bend. There's a part of me that always questions their motives in doing so.

If anyone's seen DORKNESS RISING, one of the guys plays a woman, and it's purely because he gets an adolescent quasi-sexual kick out of it.

Here in the big echo chamber of the Internet we discuss RPGs in fairly intellectual and academic manner. (Some times.) Some folks want to really explore the opposite gender as a creative exercise. But if I had to make a list out of all the guys I've ever RPed with, I would say that 98% of them would most likely be doing it because it fulfilled some quasi-sexual fantasy or so they could nudge me every five minutes and say "I've got tits."

Thanks - that clarifies a lot.  I think my experience may differ, but I also think my criteria may be different.  Honestly, I think that most PCs are adolescent fantasies of one sort or another.  For example, if a male player is playing a male double-oh agent in the James Bond 007 RPG, chances are that they're getting a kick out of it that has some quasi-sexual side - i.e. being a sexy secret agent who  can get Pussy Galore.  The same goes for being a superhero in a skintight spandex suit, and many others.  I don't think that's inherently a creepy thing.  If I go out with my friends to a party, and we dress up and act sexy there, that's not inherently creepy (though obviously there can be creepy behavior at a party).  

Still, while I haven't seen Dorkness Rising, I'd certainly agree that a man playing a female character purely for a sexual kick is creepy - I think mainly because I would interpret it as treating women purely as sex objects instead of as real people.  I just don't find that this is the case for anywhere close to 98% of cross-gender play I've seen.  In my experience, it would be more like 20% or less.  Some of it might be our different experiences, but I also suspect that I wouldn't be bothered by the same thing that bothers you.  

Quote from: Atomic Scotsman;383802Ugly lady playing a hot chick? I'm an ugly dude who plays the dashing hero sometimes -that's what it's all about, right? But if you mean a woman playing a man, that tends to bother me a little less. Not from some homophobic angle -I know and love a fair number of gay men and women. That's never been an issue for me.

But I find myself, probably incorrectly, less likely to assume the worst of a female Player. In the same regard I feel like I'm less likely to find tentacle hentai etc. on their computers. :)

Now, objectively, I know that this is an oversimplification of what people are, but in my own anecdotal experience this is what I've seen.

Well, it's interesting.  In my RPG experience, the mixed-gender groups have had more racy / sexual material than boys-only groups.  (By definition, I've never been in girl-only groups.)  In American culture, women are less likely to collect pornographic pictures, but they are more likely to (say) talk in detail about sex among each other or read racy romantic novels than men.  

So, I think women players are at least as likely as men to get a quasi-sexual kick out of playing a sexy character (of either gender).  I don't think that necessarily makes a player creepy, though.

Quote from: jhkim;383909Honestly, I think that most PCs are adolescent fantasies of one sort or another.  For example, if a male player is playing a male double-oh agent in the James Bond 007 RPG, chances are that they're getting a kick out of it that has some quasi-sexual side - i.e. being a sexy secret agent who  can get Pussy Galore.  The same goes for being a superhero in a skintight spandex suit, and many others.

That's interesting, and I'd agree with you on this.

If there is any difference at all, I'd say its the difference between playing a sexy character as part of a larger power fantasy, as opposed to playing a character strictly from an erotic point of view. To take the superhero example, When I've played in supers games the spandex and physical perfection of the character is sort of secondary to the cool factor of , "I can throw buses at people's heads", part of it.

Quote from: jhkim;383909In my RPG experience, the mixed-gender groups have had more racy / sexual material than boys-only groups.  (By definition, I've never been in girl-only groups.)  In American culture, women are less likely to collect pornographic pictures, but they are more likely to (say) talk in detail about sex among each other or read racy romantic novels than men.  

So, I think women players are at least as likely as men to get a quasi-sexual kick out of playing a sexy character (of either gender).  I don't think that necessarily makes a player creepy, though.

I've only played in one mixed gender group, and that was with my wife and another gamer's wife. Its was straight up D&D of the traditional dungeon crawl variety, so it stayed pretty PG-rated. Not because of any personal inhibitions but just because of the tone of the game.

I don't think women are any less sexual, or likely to be more sexually reserved.  But, with the women I've known, they are less likely to be uh . . .what's the word? Superficial about it, maybe? Less objectifying? I can't quite put my finger on it.

To put it into porn terms, pornography produced by/for women is no less explicit or even raunchy, but porn for/by men often has an element of humiliation or degradation to it.

I tend to view gender-bending in RPGs through a similar kind of filter. Women are innocent until proven guilty, whereas men are assumed guilty until proven otherwise.

That's not fair, I know. But it is how my brain is wired to interpret these things. And that's a result of my own gaming experience. Had my experiences been different, I'd no doubt view this in a different light.

There's also a kind of ownership issue here. Much like how my black friends can use the N-word all they want, but if I were to call someone a N****r I'd have to be damn careful about the context and delivery of the word.

I find that the playing of opposite gender PCs tends to push me out of my comfort zone, but I consider that my own problem.

Quote from: jrients;384049I find that the playing of opposite gender PCs tends to push me out of my comfort zone, but I consider that my own problem.

I can see that as being both a positive and a negative.

What I want out of a game these days is a lot of action and adventure. I want to laugh a lot, and I want to take a break from my crazy work schedule and just blow off steam.

For example. in our current Deadlands game we're playing a bunch of desperate outlaws. But because I want to goof around and laugh I made my guy a Chinese immigrant -a former railroad worker turned gun slinger. He's got the Outsider Hindrance and can barely speak English (d4 skill).

I spent most of our first session doing my best James Hong and Randall Duk Kim impersonations, and eventually degrading into a terrible Short Round as the night wore on and I got tired. I still played the amoral outlaw, but not in a very serious manner.

So leaving my comfort zone is not what I want. I do that all day long.

But, if you approach RPGs from the angle of someone looking for a dramatic challenge then this could be an excellent way of getting that.

Alright. Seventh page of the thread: my turn.

I never had any problem with people playing the opposite gender. I generally play with people who play characters with matching genders, and I don't think that's a special experience in this regard.

I know a guy who ONLY plays women. It's his "schtick". And to his credit, the guy's amazing at it. He's not gay, he's not even effeminate in real life. He just has this gift of making his characters seem genuine. Cool.

Me? I used to suck at it. So I wouldn't play women. But then, I started to play a few. I think my most recent character was Maeve, an Aasimar Paladin in 3rd ed D&D. I had a good time playing her. It's still not my normal MO, but now I'll think about it as a viable possibility when considering my character options. Now, I think I'm decent at it. Not stellar, mind you, but it's like Kyle said: it's not a freaking audition, so you just need to have a good time with it. If everyone's enjoying the game, all's good.

For some reason I tend to get to play females at Cons.

Usually the GM has a bunch of premade characters and all theplayers are blokes but a couple of the PCs are female I seem to be the guy that gets one of those.

Aside from that I think maybe I have done it once in 30 years (not GMing)

How good am I? I think I am good with writing. I am pretty pleased with the women I have played in my Current Amber PBM for example (the players can feel free to post how they disagree :) ). In the flesh who knows? Hey I played a game of Clash's at Gen Con back in 2008. I played a female New York Journalist on some planet somewhere off in Cold Space. So he'd know. I reckon about a 6 out of ten.

Quote from: Atomic Scotsman;384064What I want out of a game these days is a lot of action and adventure. I want to laugh a lot, and I want to take a break from my crazy work schedule and just blow off steam.

For example. in our current Deadlands game we're playing a bunch of desperate outlaws. But because I want to goof around and laugh I made my guy a Chinese immigrant -a former railroad worker turned gun slinger. He's got the Outsider Hindrance and can barely speak English (d4 skill).

I spent most of our first session doing my best James Hong and Randall Duk Kim impersonations, and eventually degrading into a terrible Short Round as the night wore on and I got tired. I still played the amoral outlaw, but not in a very serious manner.

So leaving my comfort zone is not what I want. I do that all day long.

But, if you approach RPGs from the angle of someone looking for a dramatic challenge then this could be an excellent way of getting that.

Well, given that it's uncomfortable for you, sure.  No one is suggesting that it should be required.  

But cross-gender play is also great for people who want a lot of action and adventure and just wants to blow off steam - as long as they're comfortable with it.  As an extreme example, I've GMed Macho Women With Guns (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/machowomenwithguns/) a few times for great fun, including many male players.  Paul Tevis played one run and commented: "It was quite tactical and very tongue in cheek. I had a good time with Sister Madison "Mad" Maxine, a Renegade Nun on Wheels. With our trusty H&K G-11's we were able to put a stop to the nefarious plots of the Dip Ones and their unearthly masters, Isaac Azathoth and Harlan Nyarlathison."  
That's an extreme example, but it's also easy without going to extremes.  I played a Slayer in a Buffy the Vampire Slayer campaign, a surly sarcastic web designer who had lots of comedic moments and kicked plenty of ass.

Quote from: jhkim;384098Well, given that it's uncomfortable for you, sure.  No one is suggesting that it should be required.  

But cross-gender play is also great for people who want a lot of action and adventure and just wants to blow off steam - as long as they're comfortable with it.

Agreed.