TheRPGSite

OK, so in Educational Roleplaying (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8765) thread, some people were bringing up the idea of role-playing as psychological therapy.  That seems like unrelated baggage to the topic of education, so I'm making a separate thread on it.  

It seems to me that a lot of what people are objecting to as "mixing" of psychological role-playing and casual role-playing is really a problem with therapy itself.  i.e. It's not like role-playing skull-fucking the corpse of a cabin-boy would seem any better if it were done by a professional psychiatrist as therapy.  It would still seem fucked up to me.  

Maybe my bias against therapists is showing here.

I guess my question is: what makes people so ready to trust the 'professional'?

Quote from: jhkimIt seems to me that a lot of what people are objecting to as "mixing" of psychological role-playing and casual role-playing is really a problem with therapy itself.  i.e. It's not like role-playing skull-fucking the corpse of a cabin-boy would seem any better if it were done by a professional psychiatrist as therapy.

So, is this what's known as a "strawman"?  Would you really assume that a professional therapist would roleplay skull-fucking the corpse of a cabin-boy as part of therapy?

Like I stated in the other thread, John, you're way too prone to hyperbole to engage in a productive discussion.  On this topic at least.

!i!

Roleplaying in therapy is pretty different from casual roleplaying for fun. Therapeutic roleplaying seems to mainly be about sympathising with others, whereas casual roleplaying involves overcoming challenges posed by another player. The therapeutic game I'm most familiar with is in couples therapy, where you pretend to be the other person and explain how you feel about some situation and why. It shares almost nothing in common with say, D&D, except that you adopt a persona.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineRoleplaying in therapy is pretty different from casual roleplaying for fun. Therapeutic roleplaying seems to mainly be about sympathising with others, whereas casual roleplaying involves overcoming challenges posed by another player. The therapeutic game I'm most familiar with is in couples therapy, where you pretend to be the other person and explain how you feel about some situation and why. It shares almost nothing in common with say, D&D, except that you adopt a persona.

All of the above and the fact that a therapy session is usually done by a trained professional who is accredited and certified in their field with a purpose of healing while a game is usually done by untrained non-professionals for fun. A person who turns to role-playing games as a form of serious therapy deserves the mind-fuck that they are about to get.

Again, I think we have to make the distinction between roleplaying, games, and roleplaying games.

Monopoly is a game, as is chess. However, they are different to a roleplaying game because... of the roleplaying.

Therapy and education can involve roleplaying. However, they are different to a roleplaying game because of... the game.

When you combine two things into another you often get something different. Adding roleplaying to games is like adding poisonous gas to flammable metal - chlorine to sodium - and useful and tasy salt. The combination provides you with something new, which has characteristics different to its components, characteristics you just don't expect from looking at the originals.

I'm a schoolteacher in a psych hospital, so I see this all around. Kids in treatment are generally forbidden from playing role-playing games, though they do ocasional roleplaying in treatment. I stay away from it. Issues invariably come up around role-playing games in treatment, regardless of the intentions with which they are used. I'm sure there's a means of sharpening a role-playing game to do just what you want it to do in a school. I'm sure it's much, much, much harder than proponents think it would be, but I'm sure it could be done.

In treatment, though, I think the whole exercise of role-playing--treatment, game, whatever--should be strictly limited. If I were in a rehab hospital where the kids were all recovering from destroyed knees and elbows, we wouldn't be playing a lot of volleyball. At my hospital, the kids' minds and imaginations are severely damaged. Role-playing recreationally would be like the volleyball. It's going to reopen wounds and do more damage.

You could argue that role-playing would be good stretching and positive exercise for kids who've healed sufficiently for the challenge. I won't disagree. Kids leave the hospital and go outpatient long before they're that sufficiently healed. So-I don't have many observations to inform that.

I'll play table games with kids to illustrate points in lessons, sometimes. But--in my situation--I stay away from games with a role-playing component.

When I was a kid I was a total jackass. In a desperate attempt to help, one of the many things my dad tried was various counselors and psychologists. In a couple of the sessions I played D&D, once with me as the GM and once with the counselor as the GM. I had fun and she got a chance to evaluate my responses to various types of problems in a setting where I was completely relaxed and not afraid to be myself. It worked well for what it was intended.

I'm also sure that it could blow up in someone's face if they don't know what they're doing, and I'm dubious about it's usefulness when used with a patient who is more capable of divorcing themselves from the fantasy matter (i.e. someone older than 10).

For the record, I brought up D&D while discussing what kind of stuff I do for fun. I don't know if she'd ever have thought of using it as a tool or not.

Quote from: jeff37923All of the above and the fact that a therapy session is usually done by a trained professional who is accredited and certified in their field with a purpose of healing while a game is usually done by untrained non-professionals for fun. A person who turns to role-playing games as a form of serious therapy deserves the mind-fuck that they are about to get.

Quote from: James McMurrayWhen I was a kid I was a total jackass. In a desperate attempt to help, one of the many things my dad tried was various counselors and psychologists. In a couple of the sessions I played D&D, once with me as the GM and once with the counselor as the GM. I had fun and she got a chance to evaluate my responses to various types of problems in a setting where I was completely relaxed and not afraid to be myself. It worked well for what it was intended.

So while I'm sure there are pitfalls, I think James example disproves Jeff's generalization about use of RPGs being a "mind-fuck".  

Incidentally, here's a link to the article I mentioned: "Therapy is Fantasy: Roleplaying, Healing and the Construction of Symbolic Order" (http://www.rpgstudies.net/hughes/therapy_is_fantasy.html) - which has a case study of someone with depression whose playing RPGs helped.  

On the other hand, I'm perfectly prepared to believe Stu that role-playing in general is inappropriate for kids who are hospitalized.  However, note that that's only a subset of the range of therapy.  

Quote from: stu2000You could argue that role-playing would be good stretching and positive exercise for kids who've healed sufficiently for the challenge. I won't disagree. Kids leave the hospital and go outpatient long before they're that sufficiently healed. So-I don't have many observations to inform that.

I'll play table games with kids to illustrate points in lessons, sometimes. But--in my situation--I stay away from games with a role-playing component.

That sounds pretty reasonable.

And again, McMurray's counsellor was the GM.

It wasn't just some dweeb who reckoned they could "help" the player.

Roleplaying as a part of therapy supervised by a qualified individual? Sure. Just like when the doctor prescribes you drugs, rather than you "self-medicating." No worries at all.

An rpg written, or an rpg session run, as "therapy" by some unqualified gamer? No.

The idea of rpgs written and presented by non-therapists and non-teachers as therapy or education shows a very superficial knowledge of the subjects. I wouldn't ask Gary Gygax to do an appendectomy on me, I don't see why playing around in my head, or teaching me about the world, is going to be any different.

I consider RPGs to be therapy in the sense that I play them as means of having fun and relaxing.  There are definite therapeutic effects going on.  Is it any different to any other social activity?  Well, the immersive nature of RPGs ensures they are pretty effective at helping me to escape the day-to-day stresses of life.  More so than just, say, hanging out with friends.  But that's a far cry from using RPGs as a tool for treating a legitimate medical condition.

And I don't think I'd want to play a game that was designed as a means of therapy.  I roleplay in order to kill things and take their stuff... not to be moulded into a better human being.

Quote from: Kyle AaronAnd again, McMurray's counsellor was the GM.

It wasn't just some dweeb who reckoned they could "help" the player.

Definitely. If some schmuck thinks he can help his girlfriend overcome childhood trauma by GMing her through a rape scene he should be beaten to death with his rulebooks before he does serious harm.

Quote from: James McMurrayDefinitely. If some schmuck thinks he can help his girlfriend overcome childhood trauma by GMing her through a rape scene he should be beaten to death with his rulebooks before he does serious harm.

I agree, violence is educational :D It might even be therapeutic. I once had a girlfriend who'd been molested as a child. In play she enjoyed playing a muscular barbarian woman who cleaved her foes with a greatsword. She said it was very therapeutic. "Empowering" I believe is the word she used. And I just used AD&D 1e DMG's random dungeon generator. I also had no therapeutic intentions. I was 16 years old, horny, had a beautiful curvy girlfriend and... rolled dice with her.

I wasn't very smart.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI was 16 years old, horny, had a beautiful curvy girlfriend and... rolled dice with her.

I wasn't very smart.

And yet I'm sure her father appreciated you. :D

!i!

I used to think Therapy? were a great band. Yes, I'm gullible. But, really, that has nothing to do with roleplaying, people.

Quote from: Kyle AaronI wasn't very smart.

You were using AD&D1....what could possibly happen? "Empowered" was the best you could have hoped for. Now if you used RQ....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: jhkimSo while I'm sure there are pitfalls, I think James example disproves Jeff's generalization about use of RPGs being a "mind-fuck".  

I'd agree with you if James' example didn't have as his DM/player a trained, liscensed, accredited, and certified professional mental health expert using an RPG as a tool for counseling.

Which is different from someone without that mental health expertise using a role-playing game for self-therapy. Thus the mindfuck.

Quote from: jeff37923I'd agree with you if James' example didn't have as his DM/player a trained, liscensed, accredited, and certified professional mental health expert using an RPG as a tool for counseling.

Which is different from someone without that mental health expertise using a role-playing game for self-therapy. Thus the mindfuck.

Well, that wasn't the claim you stated.  You never said the RPGs were appropriate for use by professionals -- just that any use would be a mind-fuck.  I'll take it that's what you meant.  

(As a personal note on this, you make a big deal out of accredited professionals.  In my own life, I usually prefer to talk to friends or family about my problems, rather than treating them as unqualified and instead seeking a professional.  That may explain some difference in point of view.)  

That said, a question for James -- was there anything particularly unusual about the D&D games with your therapist?  In particular, was there anything done in them that you'd consider dangerous to do with your friends?  It didn't sound like it from my reading, but maybe I'm missing something.

Quote from: jhkimWell, that wasn't the claim you stated.  You never said the RPGs were appropriate for use by professionals -- just that any use would be a mind-fuck.  I'll take it that's what you meant.  

This is of life or death importance to you, isn't it?

Quote from: jhkim(As a personal note on this, you make a big deal out of accredited professionals.  In my own life, I usually prefer to talk to friends or family about my problems, rather than treating them as unqualified and instead seeking a professional.  That may explain some difference in point of view.)  

There's a big difference between talking to someone about your problems and getting treatment for a diagnosed mental health issue.

Quote from: jhkimThat said, a question for James -- was there anything particularly unusual about the D&D games with your therapist?  In particular, was there anything done in them that you'd consider dangerous to do with your friends?  It didn't sound like it from my reading, but maybe I'm missing something.

Not that I noticed at the time. We just gamed. I ran her through a few rooms of a dungeon and she did the same for me, but with different rooms. There was fighting and talking, but none of it seemed psychologically directed. No "there's an ogre whose beard style matches your dad's" or anything.

James's and Mr. Funks posts basically sum up my feelings on this. Fun is a great source of therapy and RPGs are a good source of escapist fun. But that's the clincher - escapist.

Quote from: jhkimOK, so in Educational Roleplaying (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8765) thread, some people were bringing up the idea of role-playing as psychological therapy.  That seems like unrelated baggage to the topic of education, so I'm making a separate thread on it.  

It seems to me that a lot of what people are objecting to as "mixing" of psychological role-playing and casual role-playing is really a problem with therapy itself.  i.e. It's not like role-playing skull-fucking the corpse of a cabin-boy would seem any better if it were done by a professional psychiatrist as therapy.  It would still seem fucked up to me.  

Maybe my bias against therapists is showing here.

It would still be fucked up, but I doubt that any real therapist would ever do the skull-fucking thing.

The idea that anything therapeutic is going on in those games where people do the most evil, warped, degenerate crap they can think of is, I think, just a kind of lame justification for the games.

I'm not saying you couldn't find a therapist of some kind, somewhere, who would say otherwise (there's *all* kinds of people who do therapy including some who are pretty fucked up), but any kind of mainstream therapy would probably find those kinds of games pretty degenerate and the idea that there's some psychological value to playing them risible (I'm not a therapist, but this is my not-entirely-uninformed guess).

In fact, I think there's very little actual intersection between roleplaying games and roleplaying as a therapeutic technique despite the use of the same word. Roleplaying in therapy and education is usually much more controlled / guided and much more scoped than roleplaying in RPGs.

That's not to say some of the skill-sets don't intersect; in work-place communication training the ability to "play a role" of a coworker in a specific situation makes you a useful participant. In therapeutic roleplaying being able to emote (like an actor does) is handy... but these are minor side-points.

The one example we have of roleplaying being used by an actual therapist seems to be more of a "getting-to-know-you" and "let's-see-you-interact" kind of exercise than anything related specifically to RPGs, themselves, yeah?

Does anyone know of any other instance where a real therapist used an RPG in a therapeutic situation?

Cheers,
-E.

For awhile, I was in a Dark Ages Vampire game off and on. And one of the guys in the group was in seeing a therapist/counselor/whatever. And he told her about the game and she recommended that he continue to do it. For a lot of the same reasons mentioned here: escapism, empowerment, etc.

He was a short guy, single father, never got to finish college, has self-esteem issues and was pretty stressed most of the time.

His character, OTOH, was the opposite. He was a large, beast of a man, with supreme confidence and arrogance. And while we (the other players) were busying trying to improve our status in the political climate, his character centered mostly on improving himself (studying, learning new disciplines). He absolutely LOVED the game.

And I think it did a lot for him. To be able to this, essentially in fantasy-land, gave him a little more self-confidence. And he could be someone ELSE.

Did any of the rest of us have any education in psych? Hell no.