When I established the drow campaign- I had two collaborators with me (and sort of a third). We were on our way home from DDXP and talking about one of our roommates and his conceptions about mandatory character optimization and roleplaying and so on. This is important for what happened later.

So we thought the the Drow House was a unique idea in that- even as civilians, drow are dangerous individuals and live in an environment filled with adventure- the Underdark. We started coming up with all of the details from the novels- the female supremacist society that is sort of built into Faerunian Drow society was our primary source. So we came up with things like "we should only allow female drow to have the divine power source" and whatnot. And everyone was throwing around whatever tidbit we could come up with from the drow books, which I hadn't read in years and only dimly remembered.

And eventually we settled on Theme as being an important part of the campaign. You can't just do drow- you have to deal with all of the sensuous nature of the drow.

So we settled on 4 themes. Rivalry, romance, decadence, and cruelty.

Here's the "working definition of theme" from our wiki and how it relates to roleplaying:

QuoteTheme is the main idea or underlying meaning of a literary work. In our case- bitter rivalry, sensuous romance, and the decadence and cruelty of the Drow.  In literature, a major theme is an idea the author returns to time and again. It becomes one of the most important ideas in the story. This is kind of how I'd like it to be showcased in the campaign.

Four ways in which theme can be expressed:

1. Themes are expressed and emphasized by the way the character's feel.. By sharing feelings of your character you also share the ideas that go through his mind. So speak up about what your character feels.. express yourself even if it is out of character.

2. Themes are presented in thoughts and conversations. Players put words in their character's mouths for good reasons.

3. Themes are suggested through the characters. The main characters of the campaign illustrate the most important theme of the story. A good way to get at this theme is to ask yourself the question, what does my character want to learn in the course of the campaign story? Emphasize something about your character that relates back to one (or more) of the four themes.

4. The actions or events in the adventures are used to suggest theme. This is a DM thing, mainly. DM's should ask themselves "how will the action express an idea or theme?" when creating adventures.

Also, at first, when we created the characters, we had each PC establish either a love-interest, a bitter rival (or both- the PC Dravanna chose both as the same person). Drow priestesses had "favorites" amongst the male drow. Slaves were either devoted to or resentful of their owners. For PCs who couldn't come up with anything, we made them roll on a table- first for whateher it was a love interest or a rival, and then the general social status of the person. Some characters went even further- describing something decadent about their character- one wizard has a dark secret- he secretly reveres Ghaunadar, who is now heretical since the events of the War of the Spider Queen. One of the PCs is a "favorite" of a particularly malicious drow priestess, who manipulates him through a combination of rewards and punishment. Posions and drugs (in various guises) have made appearances in adventures.

So this has all worked out amazingly well. Not that it has been easy for every PC. It's a large intermixed co-ed group. There's a lot of giggling that goes on-  Once when a PC had to match his bootprints to those of a suspected thief, he was tossed out into a hallway afterwards (still putting on his boots), which we ad-libbed a pair of female acolytes coming down the hall. "This is how rumors get started.."

Another time - another game-- the same PC was being punished for failing to locate a certain thief, and was whipped, so he was pushed out into the hall still struggling with his shirt, and we ad-libbed the same two acolytes happened down the same hallway).

For an especially shy player who nonetheless wanted to be a part of this, I went ahead and made him the object of an NPCs desire so he could deal with that rather than have to roleplay uncomfortable feelings out too much. (the rest of my group is pretty accomplished, but we were trying to make room for more people).

One actual hack (which I eventually pulled back on) was Levi Kornelson's idea for a "Soap Opera plugin" that would have done things like made an OOC currency (in this case action points) dependent on things in one of these relationships. This turned out to be an unpopular idea. So within 5 minutes of launching the first session, we threw that out.

What turned out to be very popular was keeping rules out of it for the most part: so (example) Lord Shiver the vampire is infatuated with the spellscarred drow Riltharra because.. he has a taste for the spellplague in her blood-- Not because of anything she rolled.

Oh and in case anyone asks, this is where 4E's lack of a set of "rules for roleplaying" absolutely shines.

After that, the method I've been using to expand this web is to not be shy about using the established web of NPCs. Once Dravanna mentioned her character having a lover and a rival all in one- I made sure that NPC appeared in an adventure (actually 2 adventures, and then he did get killed, which means she'll have to figure out another one..right after she figures out that it was one of her friends that killed him)

The Decadence and Cruelty part is mostly for me as the DM to use for writing the adventures. The character definitely play off of it (Dravanna for example was in the game last night when Aethl'yss failed to appear at their rendezvous spot.. and she eventually went back to the barracks of Rilyntel .. to "break a few slaves".

At the start of every game (especially for new players) I usually give each player some individual spotlight time to say what they are doing, pick up rumors, and perhaps pursue any individual projects of their own. If anyone hems or haws, I can lead them straight back to the theme statement to see if it gives them any ideas.

This kind of attention to theme could really be used in any campaign-oriented game. You don't necessarily need romance or rivalry (or any of the others..)  I mean, this could easily be a campaign about river halflings on the Delimbyr, and have the themes be family, loyalty to friends, home, and wanderlust.

But it has been a useful thing to pay attention to.

I find the idea of going into a game with a specific theme in mind bizarre. I find the idea of enforcing that theme throughout play even more bizarre.

This, to me, sounds a lot like trying to "fake" drama - you're not giving it a chance to arise naturally, you're forcing it onto what's going on. You have players doing things not because it makes sense for the characters, but because that's what would make for a "better story."

I wouldn't play in such a game; it would drive me absolutely batshit.

That all said, if it works for you, go nuts. I don't understand it, but just because I don't doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to play the game the way you want.

Gnomeworks, I disagree.  These are the kinds of things that can really breathe life into a game.  They can be overdone, sure.  A few rolls on some tables and communicating some themes does not a straightjacket make.  And I think you're setting up a false opposition between "story" and "character".

Quote from: jrients;367874Gnomeworks, I disagree.

That's fine. Like I said, I'm not trying to knock anybody's style; I just don't get it.

QuoteThese are the kinds of things that can really breathe life into a game.

You might think so. This kind of thing would drive me nuts. I'm not interested in trying to explore a theme, or whatever. I want to play a character, or run a world. If a theme happens to show up, sure, that's cool, I guess; but I'm not about to force it. I don't think about themes or whatnot.

QuoteAnd I think you're setting up a false opposition between "story" and "character".

I might be. *shrug*

I'll readily concede that this sort of thematic planning in advance might not light everyone's jets, but I'm pretty sure themes will develop quickly whether you notice or not.  Even if theme is only Orc-Murdering and Grave-Robbing for Fun and Profit, it's still there.

Quote from: jrients;367877I'll readily concede that this sort of thematic planning in advance might not light everyone's jets, but I'm pretty sure themes will develop quickly whether you notice or not.

Developing themes over time, through the course of events, is one thing. It's organic, and can be ignored.

Planning for them, and holding to a specific theme, is another thing entirely.

QuoteEven if theme is only Orc-Murdering and Grave-Robbing for Fun and Profit, it's still there.

I am pretty certain that is not a "theme" in the traditional sense of the word.

I don't think there's anything particularly shocking or groundbreaking, here. It may be interesting for a group to discuss what the game's about, and if you agree on a few keywords and the players agree to come up with stuff related to these keywords in the way their characters interact with the world and amongst themselves, it can be really cool.

Some people won't like it because it basically states a preference from the table as to what their role-playing is supposed to be about, but others will totally welcome the existence of these vague guidelines and run with it.

It's cool either way.

The Marvel Super Hero camapign I ran last year had a strong redemption theme. It wasn't planned, it just evolved that way. Of course once I noticed it, I milked it for all it was worth. It made the campaign a lot strongerand gave it an overal gloss which some other campaigns never quite captured.

Well, given the cruel and deceptive nature of drow society and cultural norms then I think that having a little structure for the players is a good thing.  It lets them know which drow themes are to be emulated in the game, and how far not to go into exploring other drow themes.

This sounds like a cool and enjoyable game, and I like the associated AP thread in the other sub forum.

To be honest, I don't see campaign "theme" as anything different from a group jointly picking a campaign "setting". Ok, perhaps a difference in degree (theme is more specific), but not in kind. Sorta like a group which picks up Stormwrack, that's d20 a supplement that's a PHB for naval fantasy campaigns, and decides to run a campaign from it. That'd very much like a choice of theme (naval combats and underwater exploration, yay!), and more narrow than standard fantasy fare.

As to the OP, love the idea of limiting the divine power source to female drow. I also saw on your webpage that you banned the primal power source for drow characters. Both strike me as very reasonable. (And would assume that PHB 3 PHB 3 i.e. psionics are out too.)

Which reminds me... I meant to ask if you're running this in MyRealms, and if so, how much leeway that gives you to implement houserules like these. I'm sure no one at WotC is coming over to your house to check which rules you're using, but I'm wondering what is acceptable and what isn't.

I don't particularly see what AM proposed as being a Forge-style narrative straitjacket, I see it more as putting some focus into the campaign.  I doubt that when the time to talk about what your character had been doing in the meantime if it didn't directly involve Rivalry, Romance, Decadence and Cruelty that it would be disallowed.

I can see this Drow campaign making use of this type of focus I mean what Drow stories aren't going to include one of those four?

A little focus can't hurt.  If you want to run a Westeros campaign and your players want to be Dothraki, that can lead to some problems (think Mongol characters in medieval England).

I think Gnome is right in that all too often when you hear "Theme" and "RPG" together it's usually a Narrative RPG that's concerned more about the story then the setting itself, but it doesn't sound to me like AM has gone into that territory.  I also prefer organically grown themes to predetermined ones, but I see AM's examples more as campaign focus themes rather then literary drama themes.

I don't think about 'theme' when I'm preparing a game, but I do give some thought to emulating genre conventions.

Quote from: Windjammer;367889Which reminds me... I meant to ask if you're running this in MyRealms, and if so, how much leeway that gives you to implement houserules like these. I'm sure no one at WotC is coming over to your house to check which rules you're using, but I'm wondering what is acceptable and what isn't.

I am indeed using MyRealms in this, and you are correct that the principle involved is "Nobody is going to criticize us for how we use the template.." because they won't ever see it.

I sent you the guidelines over at Enworld but the basic deal is an experience budget per session and a treasure limit per session. After that, anything goes. It's all D&D, the main stricture I deal with is it's part of the Forgotten Realms setting (so eventually some of the characters are going to break out of the MyRealms I'm running and play these exact same PCs in surface adventures). The trick is .. ok.. here we have these drow dudes, eventually theyre going to want to play Cormyr 1-1 (which takes place in Arabel) or whatever. How do we reconcile that...?

And the answer is sort of built in: we're being exiled, and some drow become adventurers out of necessity. Right now the entire cast of characters are essntially living their mundane drow lives- they are guards or priestess..and Tebbryn is an assassin.. but those jobs are all normal parts of society. After the Exodus, all bets are off.

I usually default to the "give players what they want" school of GMing.

If I wanted a game to explore an overarching theme, I'd probably sit down with the prospective players and ask something like, "who wants to play a Starblazer Adventures game with "culture shock" and "what does it mean to be human" as themes?"

This is particularly important in games which have standard assumptions about theme; e.g. Call of Cthulhu's is "there are things man was not meant to know" and Vampire has "a beast I am lest a beast I become." But maybe I want this Vampire game to be a "stick it to the Man" anarch biker vampires game.

But usually, if I want to explore a theme, I just introduce it to the game, subtly and without railroading. If players are interested in exploring the theme, they'll bite. If they aren't, ah well, the show must go on.

Best of all, you can explore different themes with different PCs in the same game. This way one PC can confront his grim past as a mercenary, while another can come to grips with the fact that not all things have a rational explanation, while PC #3 can continue kicking ass and taking names without a care in this world.

Just my 2cp.

Quote from: CRKrueger;367897I don't particularly see what AM proposed as being a Forge-style narrative straitjacket,

Geez I hope not!

No, the real reason is twofold. The other DMs for this campaign and I knew exactly how we wanted the campaign to be when we started brainstorming, and then we got some of our first people submitting characters, some of them didn't get it at all. They just wanted to be in the group and rolled up a drow. (we didn't quite get "Steve the drow" but it was close enough). Just creating a Drow PC wasn't enough. We wanted them to get into the Drow lore, drow society stuff, and pointing out these themes seems to have helped.

The second thing is, we had just had this big conversation with the guy at DDXP that was all about character optimization in 3E and part of this was a reaction against it: we wanted to create adventures that really made an alternate use of "optimization". In Drow society- a high level optimized 18 in a prime stat fighter is certainly pretty powerful.. but they aren't always so well matched against an assassin, (or a seductress, or an expert in poisons, or an accomplished liar...) By emphasizing the shady themes of the dark elves, we opened up room for adventures that highlighted alternate creative strategies. Riltharra the warlock, for example, took alchemy as her 2nd level feat.. and it's going to make her very important in upcoming adventures.

And almost nobody takes Alchemy...


The original character concept that Tebbryn's character submitted was "My character doesn't take any crap from the priestesses" and we had to tell him.. you need to rethink that, at least when it comes down to stuff that happens right in front of them. If you want to subvert them and selectively not be helpful.. that's totally fine.