I never saw the Coalition as the default good and never read a Rifts book stating that. The Coalition is like the Empire of Star Wars, there for providing mooks to be shoot down by the PCs in vast numbers. And as it as be already written, the Coalition is a rehashed version of the Empire of Humanity from After the Bomb. But the Coalition as decribed in the Rifts corebbok is vastly different from the Coalition that exists now.

I do not agree that Tolkeen was the default good guy. It is the City of Lazlo, which has sadly done nothing notable for 30 + worldbooks (there were some mentions of them taking the fight to the Xiticixs but there was little follow up). I remember some foreshadowing that Tolkeen was dabbling in dark magic and consorting with forces hostile to Humankind.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898461You're making a LOT of assumptions without any data to back it up.

You're failing to see something, I'm explaining a point of view.  What "data" explains the viewpoint of Jack Nicholson in a Few Good Men or Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898461And it sounds very much like you WANT the Neo-Nazi death squads and camps to be considered the default 'good guy' for the game.  Which is you prerogative, I suppose, but are you REALLY going to paint that the world is 90% monster that wants to eat you?  That sounds awfully boring, and video gamey.  But I guess if you want to make the Coalition the good guys by default, that's what you have to do.

Yay, more Virtue Signaling.  Woo-Woo-Woo, pull over it's the PC Police!

Might want to read something:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_advocate

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898461Personally, as someone who collected the whole line, Tolkien WAS the supposed good guy faction, so much so that Mr. Siembeida had to muddy them in a series of adventures.  Not in one of the world/source books, but the adventures themselves.  As if he had accidentally painted himself into a corner.

Not even close, now all you're displaying is your own personal bias and bitter tears that it didn't turn out in a way you like.  At least you've stopped claiming setting details are a "railroad" now, so there's some hope.  

Laszlo has always been the "Best Last Hope For Humanity", or as Erin Tarn puts it "With the tragic corruption of Chi-Town, I see this place as humankind's true hope for a free and civilized world." I guess you collected the whole line, without the main rulebook?

Let me help this time around, imagine the voice of Jack Nicholson on the stand:
Of course situated where they are, surrounded by Ley Lines and Rifts isolated by waterways, Laszlo is extremely defensible and they don't have a nation of gargoyles right next door like the New German Republic does and they're not surrounded by enemies on all sides like Chi-Town is, so they have the luxury of being Good, don't they?  They don't have to make the hard choice.  Tolkeen did have to make the hard choice...and they made the same hard choice Chi-Town did.  They did what they saw was right By Any Atrocity Necessary, just as Chi-Town does.  In fact, they proved themselves even more corruptable, because while Chi-Town may be using the play books of Hitler and Stalin, Tolkeen started using the playbooks of Satan, Moloch, and Asmodeus.

The were entreated to move West by Tarn, Plato, Coake, all the Good Guys.  They refused.  They chose to stand and fight, and when their backs were to the wall, they chose Atrocity.  Like practically every nation does.  No one cares about the Kingdom of Heaven (movie reference) they care about the Kingdom of the Earth They Are Standing On.

The destruction of Tolkeen was a morality play, a tragedy.  An important lesson that magic and psychic power isn't all rainbows, fairies and unicorn horns.  All power comes with a price, Tolkeen made the choice and paid theirs.  Years before the Siege books, Tolkeen was hiring mercenaries, and they always were an outpost of the Black Market (the Black Market that from the beginning, put bounties on CS weapons and armor).  They never were the Shining Ones.  They were a nation of Techno-Wizards and Industry, not a center of learning and wisdom.

No, the Coalition States are not the Good Guys of the Rifts World, you'd have to be an idiot to think that was even possible.  Are there good people in the rank and file of the CS States?  Of course, they're human.  Looking at the Coalition States with a perspective other than that of a Sneering, Virtue Signaling, First World Westerner is a little more interesting to me and makes for a campaign that isn't out of a 1930's Black and White Pulp Serial.

My Wilderness Scout is pretty cool, but my favorite Rifts PC is my Cyber-Knight.  In his time he saved innocents from Coalition Soldiers and saved Coalition Soldiers from demons.  In Ciudad Juarez, he helped the Guard, and stood against them when they crossed the line.  He was based out of Tolkeen for a time and fought for the city as well as against the excesses of its mercenaries.  I stopped playing Rifts long before the Tolkeen War, and started running Rifts instead, but I'm pretty sure he would have followed Lord Coake's command, and stood down in the main fight, helping the refugees as best he could and preventing the demonic forces unleashed from consuming the innocent.

So no, I'm not a Neo-Nazi lover who wanks to skulls and swastikas, pretty sure no Rifts fan ever did, despite what those filled with purple hate will claim.  But Rifts world isn't our world.  Demons walk the earth, and humans serve, call and even command them.  In Rifts, John Wayne Gacy is a Mind Melter, and entire villages bleed and die in pain.  In a world where in most places, Might Makes Right, the bad guys have a whole lot of might.  You asked us to imagine your group of purple DBees, well imagine a town of humans, the natural inhabitants of this planet, who are terrorized by monsters from another dimension, only to be saved by soldiers from the Coalition.  Are they going to fear the black skulls?  No, they're going to see them as saviors, because that day, they were.

If you don't understand the Coalition, you can't fight the Coalition, at least not without becoming as bad as them yourself.  You brand them Tools, Puppets, and Monsters like a rpg.net simpleton and you're no better than the soldier's masters who brand anything not human as Alien, Evil, and Corrupting.  You show them the lie, Again, and Again, and Again, and Again.  Erin Tarn's War isn't one of weapons, it's one of ideas.  So you have to get yourself some more useful then a soundbite or a binary metadata tag.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898461You're making a LOT of assumptions without any data to back it up.

Actually some of the early Rifts info on the Coalition does back some of that up. The average grunt was indocrinated to shoot first and ask no questions. The Coalition is seen as saviors by those who have faced DeeBee incursions, and so on. Theres been some speculation that 40k cribbed some ideas from Rifts or After the Bomb and incorperated them into 40k eventually. Theres certainly some overlap of theme.

I agree with you about Tolkeen. Its one of my annoyances with Palladium that they used some of my stuff and dropped it in all that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;898464You're failing to see something, I'm explaining a point of view.  What "data" explains the viewpoint of Jack Nicholson in a Few Good Men or Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now?

Perhaps, but you're coming from the 'Devil's Advocate' point a little too hard.  And frankly, the amount of, for example, Mind Melters, compared to some woman who can maybe move a small object with her mind, and using the MM as the reason for why they aren't so bad is a bit disingenuous. The Coalition enslave anyone who shows any sort of psychic ability, and the odds of them being any level of powerful is exceedingly rare.  And remember, they have Psi-Stalkers that can infallibly detect them.  So, there's not one that, according to the system, can escape being turned into a second class citizen.

Quote from: Omega;898508Actually some of the early Rifts info on the Coalition does back some of that up. The average grunt was indocrinated to shoot first and ask no questions. The Coalition is seen as saviors by those who have faced DeeBee incursions, and so on. Theres been some speculation that 40k cribbed some ideas from Rifts or After the Bomb and incorperated them into 40k eventually. Theres certainly some overlap of theme.

To other Coalition members and citizens, yes, absolutely.  But to the rest of the North Americans?  Utter nutjobs that would wipe out entire peaceful, mixed villages of DBs and humans, simply because of the fact that Mr. Elf (who was born on Earth, poor sap, which makes him an earthling) had pointy ears.  They were painted as indiscriminate and uncaring, just like the Neo-Nazi's that they were.  There were monsters clad in technology. A boogie man for the rest of the 'nation' to frighten children with and hide from when they turned out to be real.

Problem is, Mr, Siembeida started to like them and tried to make them into nicer guys, and it felt incredibly clumsy.

Quote from: Omega;898508I agree with you about Tolkeen. Its one of my annoyances with Palladium that they used some of my stuff and dropped it in all that.

You wrote for Palladium?  Awesome!  Sorry it turned out bad, but still, that's awesome!

Before all the silliness of New West and Spirit West how great would it have felt to be living in the Simvan or Psi-Stalker ranges out west?  A Coalition LR patrol would be a god-send.  What if a Brodkil warlord decides to take your town as his own?

Quote from: KingCheops;898533Before all the silliness of New West and Spirit West how great would it have felt to be living in the Simvan or Psi-Stalker ranges out west?  A Coalition LR patrol would be a god-send.  What if a Brodkil warlord decides to take your town as his own?

It is actually a regular occurence in Rifts America and one of the reasons why the Coalition States are so popular amongst normal humans : they fight back against demons.

Quote from: Spinachcat;898396I'd actually prefer to run the Tomorrow Legion as an underground rebellion - often INSIDE the Coalition territory.

Definitely going to consider doing this. Good call.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898461You're making a LOT of assumptions without any data to back it up.  And it sounds very much like you WANT the Neo-Nazi death squads and camps to be considered the default 'good guy' for the game.  Which is you prerogative, I suppose, but are you REALLY going to paint that the world is 90% monster that wants to eat you?  That sounds awfully boring, and video gamey.  But I guess if you want to make the Coalition the good guys by default, that's what you have to do.

I owned a sizeable collection of Rifts books back inna-day. I wouldn't say the Coalition were the "good guys" - but they certainly were a realistic expression of what I believe humanity could/would resort to under the conceits of the Rifts setting. One of the wonderful things about the Coalition as an entity is that if you lived on the ground - not in the world of ideas, as a human in Rift's Earth, it's a pretty powerful response to dimensional invasion without making specious presumptions of "oh let's all be friends" with extra-dimensional beings whose motives are scarcely knowable by the powers that be. Hell, look around the world now, we don't even tolerate other magical beliefs that are not real and are willing to use war-rhetoric (and action) to back it up. I could *easily* see the CS be a real thing, as to whether it's "good" or not is ultimately irrelevant to me. It's about what the PC's do in the context of the philosophical conflict.

It's war. To me, there are gigantic capacities for cruelty and "evil" on any side. I love those kinds of conflicts as a setting, personally.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898461Personally, as someone who collected the whole line, Tolkien WAS the supposed good guy faction, so much so that Mr. Siembeida had to muddy them in a series of adventures.  Not in one of the world/source books, but the adventures themselves.  As if he had accidentally painted himself into a corner.

Maybe so. But ultimately "good" is dumb and boring. Like the "Republic" in Star Wars is this big kumbaya gathering of aliens, that all just get along? Of course not. That's why Republic commandos exist to put down those within the Republic that go against their authority. Tolkeen, ostensibly represents being "good" in terms of embracing magic and all that - still has *zero* to do with reconciling the reality of the real ugly shit out there that didn't give a flying fig about playing "nice" with their respective neighbors and *will* happily wipe Tolkeen and the rest of humanity off the face of the planet (or worse) without a thought. Sure not all D-bees are evil human-eating monsters - that's not really the point. The gulf that exists between the realities of Tolkeen and the Coalition have to do more with the big-picture.

Philosophically - sure the Emperor is an autocratic narcissist xenophobe. But he's also committed to dealing with the largest problems that threaten everyone. Tolkeen - not so much. There's no making diplomatic ties with the Splugorth. So live-and-let-live becomes a silly proposition when the opposition has no desire to do that. Hence the justification, on some level, of the Coalition's position. Could it be toned down? Sure. Then that's where Spinachat's excellent idea for the Tomorrow Legion comes in and you can plan to assassinate Emperor Prosek... whee!!

I don't buy any sovereign social structure being labeled as "good" vs. "evil". The question is how much of either in their own interests are you willing to deal with in context with the rest of the world.

Quote from: yabaziou;898460Part of me wishes that the Rifts world books were written more like Vampire Kingdoms and less like NGR and the Triax. Note that nothing prevents anybody playing Rifts on this (smaller) scale.

Agreed there. Sourcebook 1 and Vampire Kingdoms are what every Rifts World Book should have looked like. The Ciudad Juarez write-up is fantastic.

Quote from: tenbones;898581It's war. To me, there are gigantic capacities for cruelty and "evil" on any side. I love those kinds of conflicts as a setting, personally.
(...)
I don't buy any sovereign social structure being labeled as "good" vs. "evil". The question is how much of either in their own interests are you willing to deal with in context with the rest of the world.

Kruger's done a long and impassioned defense that I 100% agree with (which is to say, his take on Rifts Earth is precisely my take on it), but it really boils down to this.

Quote from: tenbones;898581I owned a sizeable collection of Rifts books back inna-day. I wouldn't say the Coalition were the "good guys" - but they certainly were a realistic expression of what I believe humanity could/would resort to under the conceits of the Rifts setting. One of the wonderful things about the Coalition as an entity is that if you lived on the ground - not in the world of ideas, as a human in Rift's Earth, it's a pretty powerful response to dimensional invasion without making specious presumptions of "oh let's all be friends" with extra-dimensional beings whose motives are scarcely knowable by the powers that be. Hell, look around the world now, we don't even tolerate other magical beliefs that are not real and are willing to use war-rhetoric (and action) to back it up. I could *easily* see the CS be a real thing, as to whether it's "good" or not is ultimately irrelevant to me. It's about what the PC's do in the context of the philosophical conflict.

It's war. To me, there are gigantic capacities for cruelty and "evil" on any side. I love those kinds of conflicts as a setting, personally.

The issue is that Mr. Siembeida turned Tolkien into Saturday Morning Evil!  That's the thing.  To make the Coalition a good guy organization, he made Tolkien into something that was beyond silly!

Nothing was meant to be pure good, or pure evil.  Yes, there was some nice Coalition guys, and there were evil Tolkien guys, but neither were ambiguous, or a pure shade of grey (which is just as unrealistic as pure white or black.)  But to actually make Tolkien as bad guys required more work than doing so for the Coalition.

Quote from: tenbones;898581Philosophically - sure the Emperor is an autocratic narcissist xenophobe. But he's also committed to dealing with the largest problems that threaten everyone.

No, he's not.  That's the thing.  He only cares about his 'territory'.  And even then, if it's not Chi-Town, he's not really going to act very quickly.  Which is why New Quebec (silly book notwithstanding) is listed as considering separating from the Coalition.  That and the fact that Chi-Town frowns on Glitter Boy units.  The Emperor doesn't even care about the villages within his territory, unless it was full of D-Bees in which they would make into a nice MDC bonfire.  If you're not Coalition, you are less than nothing.

Quote from: tenbones;898581Tolkeen - not so much.

But they were.  They were willing to help anyone who called on them.  You want into our kingdom for safety?  Sure!  Why not.  Now yes, there were probably some other reasons as to why they said yes, but at least to these immigrants they didn't have to fear getting gunned down because they didn't look right.

Quote from: tenbones;898581There's no making diplomatic ties with the Splugorth. So live-and-let-live becomes a silly proposition when the opposition has no desire to do that.

Not seen that in the books, not saying it doesn't exist, but if it does, that IS agreeably stupid.

Quote from: tenbones;898581Hence the justification, on some level, of the Coalition's position. Could it be toned down? Sure. Then that's where Spinachat's excellent idea for the Tomorrow Legion comes in and you can plan to assassinate Emperor Prosek... whee!!

I don't buy any sovereign social structure being labeled as "good" vs. "evil". The question is how much of either in their own interests are you willing to deal with in context with the rest of the world.

If that's the case, then the Coalition's own interests is much more self-serving, and uncaring to the general population outside it's own borders, which often do not extend past the walls of each arcology.

Quote from: The Butcher;898603Agreed there. Sourcebook 1 and Vampire Kingdoms are what every Rifts World Book should have looked like. The Ciudad Juarez write-up is fantastic.

I want to go on record saying that Rifts Atlantis is (in my opinion) another Rifts highlight, even if its scope and focus are vastly different from Vampire Kingdoms.

Quote from: yabaziou;898650I want to go on record saying that Rifts Atlantis is (in my opinion) another Rifts highlight, even if its scope and focus are vastly different from Vampire Kingdoms.

Atlantis is awesome! But very much an "epic level" module/setting. I believe its success, coupled with the "failure" of both England and Africa, may have spurred Siembieda and Carella further towards the infamous power creep.

I also believe that people disliked England and Africa not because of a lack of über-powerful character options, but because the world information was so sparse and, for the most part, uninspired. Setting a game in Germany, Russia or even goddamn South America is a breeze. England and Africa have very little to offer in this regard.

I agree with you Butcher ! In my opinion, Rifts England fails because of its weird presentation : WTF the temporal raider and their magic are in there ? Why nt more information about new camelot ? Since when Wales, Scotland, Ireland and France are parts of England ? Why no more information about the fomorian menace ? Why does Siembieda allow Wayne Breaux Jr and himself to illustrate this book while he has Kevin Long, who is more talented that the both of them, at his disposal ?

Rifts Africa fails because Africa is huge, diverse and Siembieda does not show any ambition to od it right. It is more : 4 horsemen of Apocalypse, it is cool, let's put in Africa (it is not even an African myth), an Egyptian Pharao, who is also a shapeshifter who worship Death itself, let's do that, Pygmees, yeah ! and more Siembieda's drawings ...

The whole OCC/RCC bloat is also tiresome ...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;898461Personally, as someone who collected the whole line, Tolkien WAS the supposed good guy faction, so much so that Mr. Siembeida had to muddy them in a series of adventures.  Not in one of the world/source books, but the adventures themselves.  As if he had accidentally painted himself into a corner.

I thought Lazlo was the goodies, and Tolkeen was more grey? I stopped collecting at Juicer Uprisings.

*Edit* Looks like I'm not the only one who got that impression.*

Quote from: CRKrueger;898440Siembieda is a Mad Genius Idea Machine, who can't really write all that well or coherently.  He needs a Two Rooms style partner.  I don't like Rifts for the plots, or the techporn (ok not ONLY for the techporn), I like Rifts for the canvas, the backdrop with so many brilliant, even if problematic and triggering, ideas to work with. That's why I like Rifts.  Some people say the extreme and violent nature of the setting is there to make Fascist Ideology and Nazi Fetish Wank acceptable.  I disagree.  I think, like lots of good science fiction, it provides great metaphors that can be used to explore and experience humanity: the good, the bad, the tragic, the heroic.  In the setting where literally anything is possible, then you can run any type of game you want.

This theme came up in the first Sourcebook (James T, the crazy cyborg) and especially Reid's Rangers from the Vampire Kingdoms. The PCs are likely decent enough, but there's lots of people in RIFTs who will protect you from the demons and shit, but they aren't especially nice people once you get to know them.