Quote from: sureshot;1054790I never found England too bad as a bad. Definite need of a rewrite imo. Rifts Africa is the main Rifts that needs a rewrite. Barely looked at in my collection with some weird attitudes by some of the playable races. A few refuse to use technology of any kind with little to no MDC. In a world where technology is prevalent any race that refuses to use some body armor is going to be wiped out. Or just easy prey to the Splugorth or any other slaver. It was just as bad as how some Native American tribes in Spirit West wanted to return back to the ways and only the ways of their ancestors of the days of the Wild West.

To be fair; at least the Native Americans in Spirit West had their gods creating spirit-infused MDC armor and weapons for them (including bows with the range and striking power of MDC assault rifles) and teaching others how to harness their inner magic to become badasses with supernatural strength and endurance or spellcasters.

Technology was never the only path to power in Rifits; if you were strong enough in magic or a few types of psionics (bursters and mind-melters mostly) then you didn't need to have technology to be competitive.

Quote from: sureshot;1054790I never found England too bad as a bad. Definite need of a rewrite imo. Rifts Africa is the main Rifts that needs a rewrite. Barely looked at in my collection with some weird attitudes by some of the playable races. A few refuse to use technology of any kind with little to no MDC. In a world where technology is prevalent any race that refuses to use some body armor is going to be wiped out. Or just easy prey to the Splugorth or any other slaver. It was just as bad as how some Native American tribes in Spirit West wanted to return back to the ways and only the ways of their ancestors of the days of the Wild West.

When we were first getting into Rifts, me and a buddy were the primary GMs, and we agreed to trade off world books, so that we would each have material that wasn't "spoiled".
He got Vampire Kingdoms and England, and I got Atlantis and Africa. In hindsight, I got the short end of the stick. Vampire Kingdoms is so playable "out of the box". Atlantis takes a bit of work, (The Dimensional Market worldbook helps a lot there, but that was years in the future) England and especially Africa are not so great. Africa is much more an event (The Four Horsemen) with a thin coat of setting material. I didn't use any of it at all, and Africa was the end of our argreement, we just bought whatever after that.

And yes, when Rifts tries to put in people who don't have access (or refuse to use) MD, it just looks wierd. Like cavemen hunting tanks with stone spears. (I guess literally in this case)

Quote from: Chris24601;1054793To be fair; at least the Native Americans in Spirit West had their gods creating spirit-infused MDC armor and weapons for them (including bows with the range and striking power of MDC assault rifles) and teaching others how to harness their inner magic to become badasses with supernatural strength and endurance or spellcasters.

It's been awhile since I read the book yet they were written as being too stupidly anti-technology for me at least. Yes they had magic equivalents. Yet in a world like Rifts to be completely anti-tech is being dumber than a bag full of hammers imo. While thinking those who taught differently then they did stupid and deluded fools. Those that mixed both the old ways and new ways could handle a variety of threats.

Quote from: Chris24601;1054793Technology was never the only path to power in Rifits; if you were strong enough in magic or a few types of psionics (bursters and mind-melters mostly) then you didn't need to have technology to be competitive.

I'm not saying it should be the only path. Yet in a world like Rifts writing setting elements where races, creatures etc ignore it completely to me makes no sense. Let's ignore a resource tham many if not at least half the population use. The main power on the continent ( The coalition) embraces  but we can't because the main creator of the world writes us as being stubbornly stupid anti-tech morons. It was like how their nega-psychics were portrayed in Beyond the Supernatural. How many times can one claim the supernatural does not exist when one keeps fighting and over. At least in Psycape they kind of updated them to be less delusional at that point.

Quote from: sureshot;1054800I'm not saying it should be the only path. Yet in a world like Rifts writing setting elements where races, creatures etc ignore it completely to me makes no sense. Let's ignore a resource tham many if not at least half the population use. The main power on the continent ( The coalition) embraces  but we can't because the main creator of the world writes us as being stubbornly stupid anti-tech morons.

And again to be fair; the anti-tech position wasn't from the Native Americans; plenty of Native Americans DO use technology.

The Anti-tech sentiment was a condition of the Native American gods on being able to use their magic. The gods' position is "You can have faith in us to provide for and protect you or you can put your faith in technology; you can't have both."

According to 'Spirit West' only one-third of Native Americans actually follow that path. Another third follow their people's religious practices in a general sense, maybe even admire the ones devout enough to put their full faith in the gods, but use high technology (the final third have fully assimilated into modern society and don't even acknowledge the Native American gods).

So, far from being some uniform anti-tech morons you have a diverse culture where some members choose to put their full faith in their gods (and the gods do provide marvelous gifts without the expense of MDC equipment) and most do not and use the same body armor and pulse rifles the farmer down the way has.*

*ETA: A point worth mentioning that got better presented in the Ultimate Edition of the main book is that people with MDC armor and weapons are the Exception and not the Rule.

Many communities end up under the thumbs of petty warlords because the warlord and his couple of his buddies have MDC body armor and laser rifles and the villagers don’t have anything more than SDC hunting rifles and farm tools to oppose them. Lots of places will happily provide for the needs of a protector who can keep them safe from MDC threats.

PCs with their multiple MDC weapons, sometimes multiple suits of MDC armor; not to mention bionics, power armor and magic; are exceptions that exist to prove the rule.

Quote from: Chris24601;1054845*ETA: A point worth mentioning that got better presented in the Ultimate Edition of the main book is that people with MDC armor and weapons are the Exception and not the Rule. .

In a setting where MDC predators are common, I have to wonder how such people who lack MDC gear survive.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1054849In a setting where MDC predators are common, I have to wonder how such people who lack MDC gear survive.

The same way unarmed medieval peasants survived bandits, raiders and wild beasts without owning plate armor and longswords; strongmen (knights) who protect them in exchange for a portion of the community's wealth. You can pretty much take over (or free) a lot of towns just by wiping out their half dozen or fewer champions (who probably aren't any better equipped than your typical starting PC).

It's also a mistake to presume that there are slobbering MDC predators around every corner; at least in places where humans congregate in any number. Sure, there are places where MDC critters abound, but human settlements in those areas are rare (and those that do exist have some type of protector).

One of the reasons the New West is relatively populated is because there aren't that many ley lines once you're past the Mississippi until you reach the Rockies. Less ambient magic means fewer supernatural critters. The closer you get to the CS heartland, the more regularly patrolled it is by troops better equipped and trained than all but the best independent realms.

Also worth pointing out is that a lot of supernatural critters have vulnerabilities to things like wood, iron, silver or fire and if you know the weaknesses of the local predators then a crossbow with the right bolt tips is as effective as a pulse rifle. Vamps are harmed by wood, silver and running water for example (in addition to sunlight) to the point that squirt guns are valid armaments to defend against them (they're also completely invulnerable to most non-magic MDC weapons with the exception of special railgun munitions). A flashlight with a tape cross across it will be more effective against vampires (they take damage from any contact with a cross, even the shadow of one) than most heavily armed CS platoons unless they're specifically equipped to fight vampires.

Quote from: Ninneveh;1054364If you could go back in time and erase the whole book and start from scratch, what would be your vision for the setting?

Start by playing Kinks - Living on a Thin Line.

Quote from: Chris24601;1054863The same way unarmed medieval peasants survived bandits, raiders and wild beasts without owning plate armor and longswords; strongmen (knights) who protect them in exchange for a portion of the community's wealth. You can pretty much take over (or free) a lot of towns just by wiping out their half dozen or fewer champions (who probably aren't any better equipped than your typical starting PC).

Good point though I counter that bandits, raiders and wild beasts were not armed with energy pistols, rifles and heavy weapons that can level a entire village with a few shots. Nor said wild beasts immune to most non-MDC attacks. I can see why some unarmed medieval peasants survived the middle ages. Most people with MDC weapons/armour in Rifts are a smear mark and ashes,

Quote from: Chris24601;1054863It's also a mistake to presume that there are slobbering MDC predators around every corner; at least in places where humans congregate in any number. Sure, there are places where MDC critters abound, but human settlements in those areas are rare (and those that do exist have some type of protector).

It would be hard to say. Sure many more intelligent predators would stay away imo. Yet the more wild and less intelligent would congregate around such places more food to be had as they think more with their stomachs and less intelligence. Even then the more intelligent ones would attack lone individuals that no one cares about or make sure no to be noticed.

Quote from: Chris24601;1054863One of the reasons the New West is relatively populated is because there aren't that many ley lines once you're past the Mississippi until you reach the Rockies. Less ambient magic means fewer supernatural critters. The closer you get to the CS heartland, the more regularly patrolled it is by troops better equipped and trained than all but the best independent realms.

Being MDC their nothing really stopping critters from breeding and spreading unless one targets them for extermination. Lord dunscon the guy in charge of the Federation of magic released a supernatural monster the spiny Ravager all of the ones he had into areas controlled by the CS . They not only did the damage he wanted they are also breeding. Beyond supernatural critters their is also the human and D-bee element. Short of the writer grace I cannt see areas where those with little to no mdcweapons and armor survive. I can see it with SDC weapons not MDC imo

Quote from: Chris24601;1054863Also worth pointing out is that a lot of supernatural critters have vulnerabilities to things like wood, iron, silver or fire and if you know the weaknesses of the local predators then a crossbow with the right bolt tips is as effective as a pulse rifle. Vamps are harmed by wood, silver and running water for example (in addition to sunlight) to the point that squirt guns are valid armaments to defend against them (they're also completely invulnerable to most non-magic MDC weapons with the exception of special railgun munitions). A flashlight with a tape cross across it will be more effective against vampires (they take damage from any contact with a cross, even the shadow of one) than most heavily armed CS platoons unless they're specifically equipped to fight vampires.

Vampires in Rfits earth are a special case imo. Being such a plague I would almost everyone imo at least I would say 80-90% know about their weaknesses imo. The same cannot be said for every MDC critter or D-bee that comes out of a Rift. Sure their is trial and error yet who wants to be the one to see if wood does damage to mr 20 foot tall fangs the size of small dogs covered in scales with two heads supernatural critter. It's a setting anachronism which makes little sense. As they saying goes "it's rifts it does not need to make sense". It's like how almost all the good aligned organization fighting against evil in the world are portrayed as being completely and utterly stubbornly stupidly wanting to be both independent and not trust fellow good organizations. Yet somehow despite how the alignment system works in the game. The evil organizations for the most part work well smoothly and get along. If the good aligned organizations banded together they would kick ass and do some major damage to the evil organizations.

I used RIFTS England years ago.  I didn't like it even when I had less of a critical eye, but it was my native land.  None of my group cared for it and the campaign moved back to Atlantis quickly.

I would dump the Arthurian-inspired material entirely.  I adore Arthuriana, but it was done before and better in Mutants in Avalon for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness/After the Bomb.

I would emphasise faerie, druidism, the millennium trees and make England a strange and mysterious land of magic.  Likely one targeted by Brodkil, Gargoyles or Atlantis.

Quote from: Chris24601;1054863The same way unarmed medieval peasants survived bandits, raiders and wild beasts without owning plate armor and longswords; strongmen (knights) who protect them in exchange for a portion of the community's wealth. You can pretty much take over (or free) a lot of towns just by wiping out their half dozen or fewer champions (who probably aren't any better equipped than your typical starting PC).

It's also a mistake to presume that there are slobbering MDC predators around every corner; at least in places where humans congregate in any number. Sure, there are places where MDC critters abound, but human settlements in those areas are rare (and those that do exist have some type of protector).

One of the reasons the New West is relatively populated is because there aren't that many ley lines once you're past the Mississippi until you reach the Rockies. Less ambient magic means fewer supernatural critters. The closer you get to the CS heartland, the more regularly patrolled it is by troops better equipped and trained than all but the best independent realms.

Also worth pointing out is that a lot of supernatural critters have vulnerabilities to things like wood, iron, silver or fire and if you know the weaknesses of the local predators then a crossbow with the right bolt tips is as effective as a pulse rifle. Vamps are harmed by wood, silver and running water for example (in addition to sunlight) to the point that squirt guns are valid armaments to defend against them (they're also completely invulnerable to most non-magic MDC weapons with the exception of special railgun munitions). A flashlight with a tape cross across it will be more effective against vampires (they take damage from any contact with a cross, even the shadow of one) than most heavily armed CS platoons unless they're specifically equipped to fight vampires.

I had a look at the New West Worldbook, and while supernatural predators are rare (and I expected them to be) the amount of alien and dinosaur-like MDC predators seem to vary. The Leatherwings are described as numbering at about 1.5 million at least (likely more), and the Grigleapers in the hundreds of thousands.  The rest of the descriptions only mention "more common", which could mean many things. (More commonly found at a location, but still rare compared to SDC creatures... or commonly found as in there's millions... who knows...)


The big question is what kind of impact millions of MDC creatures are going to have on the existing SDC creatures, like bison and rattlesnakes and fish. What's a rattlesnake going to do to protect itself from a grigleaper? (Answer, nothing at all)

Quote from: sureshot;1054790I never found England too bad as a bad. Definite need of a rewrite imo. Rifts Africa is the main Rifts that needs a rewrite.

Yes, RIFTS Africa is another awful book.

I really like the idea of Rifts England, but as others say, the book fell far short of my hopes.

I would put a lot more focus on druids and faeries and creating an atmosphere of magic and mystery based around those themes. There should be both expanded rules and more fluff regarding both druids and faeries, including communities based around them, their culture, and abilities.

I like the Arthurian legend and think that there could be some potential with a a New Camelot - but the way they did it was terrible. The new versions of the mythic characters with those ridiculous names - ugh. If I were going to recreate the Arthurian legends in the Rifts setting, I would have the same ancient people awaken or be resurrected in some way, then those people would be empowered by the magic of Rifts Earth. No fake Merlin as an alien intelligence.

The entire book felt random, it needed a more cohesive and thematic design.

Haven't read past the first page so some of this might have already been mentioned...

Delete all of the Aurthurian stuff. It's the most played out, boring, cliche shit in fantasy other than Tolkien.

Expand on the Millennium Trees and the various druids. How each individual Millennium Tree acts with the community that surrounds it. "Gifts" that are particular to individual trees. Druid sects that are particular to individual trees.

Expand on the Dabuggh communities and how they are slowly taking over the Isles without anyone realizing it. More on the Mantaz Sectles' war against them and how humans fear the Mantaz and don't help them.

Expand on the return of the Celtic gods and their war against the Fomorians. Setting up a fight between humans, dabugghs and Fomorians.

Expand on the Faerie kingdoms that should rule everywhere that isn't controlled by humans, dabugghs and fomorians.

Have the humans be in contact with the NGR with very limited trade in technology and knowledge. While that is actually in the original England book, the NGR books retconned history into no contact between the two nations.

The main human nation should be an industrial nation with smoke belching factories and pollution with conflict between the factory owning lords and the peasants, both of which are being infiltrated by dabugghs in preperation for a complete takeover.

The psionic Caliber-X sword has an incredibly stupid name, but was pretty cool otherwise. Not powerful enough to be the super-sword it was made out to be, though. The elite warriors/officers/knights of the human nation should all have a sword like that.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1055335The entire book felt random, it needed a more cohesive and thematic design.

Yes, exactly.

But in particular it was also a bad mishmash of boring stuff.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1055691Yes, exactly.

But in particular it was also a bad mishmash of boring stuff.

Yeah, I agree.

OK, here are a few thoughts I has having about changes to Rifts England.

Let's really step up the faerie focus. Almost all Rifts faeries are annoying trickster style beings. Let's change that. We need powerful serious faeries, lords and ladies of the faerie court. We could even have a king and queen of the faeries (Oberon and Titania perhaps) who rule over a mystical realm that can be accessed from earth in certain locations of great faerie power. These faerie forests have their own special rules of reality where magic is more powerful and less dependable. They are full of humans or D-Bees living relatively primitive lives but who have the protection of the faeries through offerings made to them. Sometimes something simple like a bowl of milk left out, sometimes it will be children offered the the faeries.

The King and Queen of the faeries would be extremely powerful, on par with gods in other Rifts books. One of their primary powers of all greater faeries would be magic - notably the ability to cast spells without limit or nearly so - especially within their faerie realms. We could have a section on faerie magic which could have a number of different focuses depending on the nature of the faerie - manipulating minds, illusions, nature control, etc. Maybe different categories and any particular faerie could only access one or two of these categories. We could also have RCC's and OCC's based on these ideas - including characters* who are half-faerie and half-human who could access some of these powers. Faerie sorcerers, those people with fae blood who can access their magic and whose PPE recovers very quickly in relation to how close they are the the faerie realms. In a faerie forest, they should be recovering some PPE every turn. Maybe we could have some faerie OCC or RCC that is a kind of clock-work techno-mage, but faeries shouldn't do anything more technological than that.

The faeries could have magically enhanced human servants - changelings who were taken as babies and enhanced through faerie magic. They also have fetches, creations made to resemble humans, who are obedient to a faerie master and who give their masters influence and an informant in the mortal world.

Faeries would have a number of special rules, with a focus on have powerful advantages and weaknesses. Faeries would take aggravated damage from iron weapons, even mundane iron and steel. The more the iron is altered though, the less it affects them. Pure iron is better than steel and high-tech alloys don't affect them much.

So far I have mostly discussed crunchy rules, this is a Rifts book after all. The book could go into detail about the faerie courts and the intrigues between the nobles and how they affect the British Isles. They control a number of the more magical regions and they suppress technology and foster the growth of magic. They may be a political player in the British Isles and view humanity as the serfs in their feudal kingdoms. Some faerie lords are evil and some are good, the king and queen are aloof to such things and allow the lords beneath them to do as they will.

* Let's eliminate the New Camelot plot as it is, but we touch on that and link it to the above. The true Merlin of Arthurian legend has returned, he is half faerie as a powerful fae sorcerer. He is rebuilding a modern kingdom after the model of Camelot. Let's make this Merlin good or at least Unprincipled. He's trying to do good. He wants to build a nation that can utilize both magic and technology, which can ally with good faeries but where humans can have autonomy from the faerie lords who view humans as lowly creatures to be ruled over. Excalibur exists and is a faerie artifact, given to the new king of Camelot by the Lady of the Lake, a good greater faerie in alliance to Merlin. Morgan is also back, also a faerie sorceress, though she is evil and wants to dominate the British Isles with her powerful magic - maybe even play humans and fae against each other to eventually rule over both. Morgan might utilize both faeries and high-technology, she is practical in achieving her ends. We could have a few more Arthurian characters who have a magical nature (the Green Knight perhaps) and could still be alive, but let's not have humans.

The powerful of the Fae is something that most people in the British Isles will know about even if they don't have much first hand experience. There should still be some mystery about them even if they are commonly known about. Perhaps the Druids help to protect humans from the faeries, maybe Scathatch iron weapons are particularly effective against the faeries. Speaking of druids, I would want to expand on them as well - their powers but mostly their ideology and role as priests and protectors of the people and how they create a certain culture in the British Isles.