For the record, I don't hate Instincts. I don't know near enough about them to do that. They sound like a codified rules for the SOP I've been suggesting all along. what I disagree with is the part where the GM says "ok, your characters are all acting very intelligently, and I can't figure out a way to get past their defenses to start up this plot I want to run. How about I give you some freebie points and you make your guys act stupid for a little while?"

Quote from: SpikeGuess what, guys: Bribery is natural human behavior.

So are fucking, shitting, and fighting, but I don't want those at my game table either.

Quote from: James McMurraySo are fucking, shitting, and fighting, but I don't want those at my game table either.

Your table sounds boring.

Quote from: James McMurraywhat I disagree with is the part where the GM says "ok, your characters are all acting very intelligently, and I can't figure out a way to get past their defenses to start up this plot I want to run. How about I give you some freebie points and you make your guys act stupid for a little while?

It doesn't matter what rules system or game play technique you use, whether it be xp, alexandro's little speech, or BW's Instincts, players will always do something stupid. And if player stupidity is what's required for your plots, then you'll be okay.

Of course, there are other ways to get them into plots, rather than some weakness in PC defences. They could, for example, have a plot matched to what their characters are interested in or care about.

Y'know....


... players in my games regularly sleep in their armor.  I think. I don't know, I don't really pay attention to that sort of foolishness and I don't really try to spring to many nighttime assaults on them, so it has zero impact on many of my games.

Now: there are times when it's been 'important'. In which case everyone is much more concerned with the fact that I demand will saves for people on guard shifts, particularly penalizing 'long' shifts. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it don't.  I let the internal party politics punish the sleepy offenders mostly.

Declaring AFTER the poison is announced? I always always say: I didn't hear you say anything about not eating before hand. No take backs. I also have a long standing rule that 'I DID NOT HEAR IT' means 'YOU DID NOT SAY IT, EVEN IF YOU DID.'... no matter what the situation.  Sometimes they bitch, but since its a hard and fast rule generally they get over it. Then again really long lasting fucked up shit rarely happens from 'poisoned food' or what have you in my games.

I'm considering allowing players to write on a 3x5 card 'defensive calls' like that so the 'I didn't hear it' rule doesn't have to apply.  Its alot harder to say 'But I wrote it down. It must have turned invisible' and not have everyone laugh at you.


Oh, and I repeat everything I've already said in this thread before. Twice. Even if its not relevant.

Quote from: Kyle AaronIt doesn't matter what rules system or game play technique you use, whether it be xp, alexandro's little speech, or BW's Instincts, players will always do something stupid. And if player stupidity is what's required for your plots, then you'll be okay.

I'd much rather just say "hey guys, I've got what I think is a cool story, but it involves you being captured. Is that alright?" I can be pretty much gauranteed that if I rely on a specific brand of PC stupidity while designing an encounter it will not happen, even if it has happened like clockwork for the last ten sessions.

QuoteOf course, there are other ways to get them into plots, rather than some weakness in PC defences. They could, for example, have a plot matched to what their characters are interested in or care about.

Yep, that's definitely true.

Quote from: Kyle AaronThey could, for example, have a plot matched to what their characters are interested in or care about.

Sure, but the OP said that his characters are interested in this kind of super-challenging play. I'm just trying to figure out a way to help him deal with it without getting bogged down in repetitive play (ie checking every 5' for traps) or arguing what's reasonable with his players.

I've been thinking about the armor issue. Sure, you probably don't sleep very well when you're wearing armor, lying on the ground by the side of a campfire. But it's reasonable to assume that your adventurers practically live outdoors and they're very hardy customers, especially compared to one of us. I know from personal experience that I can have 3-4 restless nights while camping and while I might be a little irritable in the morning, it has zero effect on my ability to hike with a load the next day.

So I'm guessing the average adventurer can probably go a couple of weeks sleeping rough before he starts to feel it. If armor is really uncomfortable, call it a week. How about setting that sort of guideline with your players. They've got a week of sleeping in their armor before they need a night of good rest, preferably indoors.

It really comes down to what you want to spend your energy on: is it worth keeping track of worn out armor, fatigue levels, etc just for the odd night ambush? The hardcore DM in me (the same one who wishes encumbrance wasn't such a PITA to track) thinks if you can make it fast and easy, go for it. Otherwise, handwave it or get the players to agree to a night ambush.

I know you're probably thinking "agree to an ambush! do you even know what ambush means?", but think about it. Your players are already expecting to be ambushed at all times, especially if they take their armor off for more than thirty seconds. Does it really matter whether they're surprised, or is the point that they're caught unprotected?

p.s. Let's not get into a discussion of BW's merits. It's been done to death over here.

Coming to this a bit late, but to mix up two of the situations:

   "I'm wearing full plate to the banquet because you never know" is ridiculous.

   "I'm wearing my stylish brigandine armour tunic to the banquet" is intelligent.  Not to mention fully in character if you have to deal with typical medieval city streets after dark.  Ankh-Morpork's Shades were not an exaggeration of the dangers of walking home in narrow alleys with only a lantern as a light source...

There was this session I DM'd yonks back - the PCs are at a summer fair held by the local lord. They've been dungeoneering for the past week and rushed back to make it to the fair. I asked them - 'are you going straight to the fair tooled up and armoured (they had chainmail and leathers on) - one of them said "Oh yeah, just as we are,  it case it all kicks off after we've had a bevy!"

So after they'd drank barrels of peeve and one tried to chat up a merchant's daughter I just rolled my eyes:

"So, is she up fer it, like ?"

"Well you reek of shit, sweat and piss, you're covered in blood. Go fer it, fanny magnet, maybe she like a bit of rough, what's your Charisma ?"

Needless to say he failed.

I have been in a game where the DM let a guy in full chain with a backpack full of treasure successfully climb a silver birch tree and rest there for hours.