So this is a question relating to how in OSR type games, death is usually quite commonplace for PCs, and the next step is to quickly roll up a new character.

But I must ask, how common is revival magic? Do most of your games or OSR games in general make raising a dead PC back into play basically impossible? Or is it actually quite easy as long as you have a high level cleric on hand?

I was thinking about this recently, because OSR games treat life as quite cheap. But with revival magic, death can become just as cheap. You can die die often and be revived and the whole thing can become routine.

Now I'm not saying this is bad -- it might in fact be good for a game that has life be cheap.

However I wonder what the common expectation among everyone here is.

Bringing PCs back in OSR games - for low level PCs this hardly ever happens. It's just too expensive/hard to find someone willing to cast the spell. Medium level games. It's possible, but usually an adventure in itself (e.g. do a service for the temple that is providing the service). High level games, the PCs usually have their own means of raising/resurrecting.

Of course, bringing PCs back isn't guaranteed - system shock rolls, petrification, disintegration, etc. Hey, let's be careful out there. 

How low is low level in your case?

This really depends on the actual OSR system being used and how the DM structures the campaign. In AD&D there are expensive material component costs, NPC casting services costs, finding a cleric that can do it, and Res survival chances to deal with. In B/X and OD&D there are not any material component costs and costs for the service need to be determined by the DM. In the latter two systems the biggest factor is how rare the DM makes casters of sufficient level to cast the spell in the campaign. It is a good way for temples to get adventurers to do difficult quests for them. So in the greater OSR realm there is quite a bit of variation on rarity and ability to bring lower level PCs back.

My players are not great at taking a loss when a PC dies.

Playing by the book, a cleric could raise dead for about 500 gp IIRC (in AD&D, I think you can hire spellcasters for 100 gp per spell level).

A B/X cleric gets raise dead by level 7.

And a PC could die falling from a tree or fighting a house cat.

But I play with lots of house rules so I' wouldn't know. My own PCs are on their way to the strongest cleric in the region to get rid of a curse, and I think it will cost them dearly, but they are hoarders so they'll probably offer to perform some quest instead.

Quote from: spon on July 17, 2023, 07:00:47 AM
Bringing PCs back in OSR games - for low level PCs this hardly ever happens. It's just too expensive/hard to find someone willing to cast the spell. Medium level games. It's possible, but usually an adventure in itself (e.g. do a service for the temple that is providing the service). High level games, the PCs usually have their own means of raising/resurrecting.

Of course, bringing PCs back isn't guaranteed - system shock rolls, petrification, disintegration, etc. Hey, let's be careful out there.

This has been my experience.  In some ways it is a measure of how much time and effort has been put into the character.  Anything from 1st to 5th or 7th is so little time and effort (remember, we are talking OS or OSR, so characters don't come with elaborate backstories and fan-fiction) that usually you just roll up a new one.  By 7th through 12th or so, you care about the character (you've created enough story... and played the character for months or even years, depending) enough that a quest or sacrifice of money or resources makes sense.  Above 12th, you've got better things to do than die.  Besides, in my groups we always started every new character at 1st.  So you've either got a really underpowered sidekick for the rest of the adventure, or the adventure goes on hold until you can take the months to level the new guy.  Or you just Resurrect them...

That's generally how it played out for us, too.

Permadeath is vastly overstated as part of the original play style people always seem to "mis-remember". When we played BECMI and AD&D, characters were frequently raised but it depended upon the nature of the death. I can remember vividly one character being reincarnated by a druid something like ten times because 1) we really needed that character alive and 2) because it was funny as hell to see the player keep getting shafted with new and interesting forms.

I think now regular old Raise Dead would be worth a couple thousand gold to do, so if the PCs don't want to pay the cost, it means they really don't care about that character, NOT that such magic is unavailable. I generally run low magic settings, but even then I'd allow a PC to get raised if it made sense within the context of the game, and some rich dudes might even do it just to have a PC on the hook for doing their dirty work.

I have been contemplating it, since in one of my games, death is pretty common. Or at least, more common than your typical 5e style game. But I also didn't have a problem with revivals being common too, as long as you knew the right NPC or could fork out a ton of gold. Easy come, easy go. Others have made the point however, that making death and revival so common robs death of any of its meaning and weight. A comparison was made to when a beloved character returns on a TV show for barely coherent reasons to milk out some more interest from them.

So now I am considering whether revivals existing hurts the game on some level. Some DMs just don't allow revivals at all.

I've never had raise the dead or reincarnation, my players never took it well when someone died. Tantrums are what I remember.

This was probably why I fudge a roll or two when I was a teen. Now it's best to just let the players roll the die to prevent fudging. I just give them the odd or bonuses and an "are you sure" before they roll so they can tell when something is unlikely and probably deadly and leave it to them. Betting it all on a die roll is easier to take when you know your liking it all.

I've never seen a resurrection in an old-school game session, despite the fact that most of the rule systems allow it. For one thing we seldom play past level 8, but also none of my crew like the concept. We like death to be permanent.

For me it varies hugely depending on the setting. In my Classic D&D Mystara game, raise dead was common. In sword & sorcery it's rare to non-existent.

Depending on the OSR system, you need a 7th-9th level cleric to Raise Dead who are generally rare in most OSR settings. 500 gp would be a low cost, but the PC would have to make CON roll of some sort or be extra dead. If they survive, they suffer -1 CON which definitely leads to death spiral over time.

I've seen plenty of PCs fail that CON roll. That's almost more painful than just dying in battle.

As always, it depends on what kind of game you're playing -- and this doesn't mean mechanics.

There's also the investment aspect. Something a lot of people forget (or ignore) is that if you want players to treat characters like personnel in X-Com, fine, but don't expect a lot of backstory (or for that matter, characterization).

Conversely, if your players invest some time into their characters, don't be surprised if they're hesitant about burying them.

Right now I'm running C&C (not really an OSR as its mechanics post date 3.X) and if you are low level and die you are probably dead for good.  No high level cleric will raise you and a Wish or similar would cost far too much.  I guess partially why Gygax said it should have been the 3rd Ed of D&D.

When I ran AD&D or BEMCI/RC, raise dead was rare because, as others have said, we rarely had characters reach the levels where they could afford or wanted to do it.  It also worked out, possibly by sheer accident, that my pool of players was mostly people who enjoyed experimenting with new characters.  They saw it as win-win:  You live, you get levels, you keep playing the guy you have.  You die, you get to do something new.  If you die with a bang, then all the survivors get to tell your new guy about your old character.  Which can be almost as funny as the aforementioned reincarnation hi-jinks.

For my current not-OSR but mostly old-school style, it's often in that same ballpark with an added restriction taking from Dragon Quest.  In DQ, resurrection isn't a spell.  It's a magical ability of a powerful healer, where being a "healer" is called a skill but is really more like a set of skills associated with a profession.  (Hey, it's an old game.)  There isn't any direct "clerical" magic, and the magic that is somewhat "divine" in nature can't raise dead.  Though in my translation, I do have some Princess Bride Miracle Max options where certain powerful spells can catch a spirit that is only "mostly dead" in the last few minutes.  Long story short, usually when you die, if you don't the Max option handy, the only recourse is for the party to find an advanced Healer, which are far more rare than casters in general.  Or break out the shovels after looking through pockets for loose change.