Quote from: Geoffrey;257617I'm the author.

1. The level of grisly detail of my book is exactly that of M. A. R. Barker's The Book of Ebon Bindings. Any line that has been crossed was already crossed by Prof. Barker 30 years ago.

2. Carcosan sorcerers are evil. They do evil things.

3. No one at my table has ever gone into detail on human sacrifice during the game. For example, when a PC performs a ritual requiring human sacrifice it goes something like this:

Judge: The sun has just set.

Player: OK, we do what has to be done. We utilize all the material components as described in the ophidian runes, and we kill the sacrifice in the required manner.

That's it.

Thanks, I may pick it up in pdf, I've not decided yet.  It depends how kitbashable it is, if it's at all faithful to the original books it should be very much so of course.

Quote from: RPGPundit;257649Huh? Nevermind that this doesn't even hold up as a rational argument (why the fuck would a bunch of snake-men be interested in raping, as opposed to just killing, human sacrifice victims?!), YOU invented the fucking snake-men, you cunt.

Nor does this explain why you feel the need for the protagonist PCs to play the guys who do these rituals (as opposed to say, horrific NPC villains), nor does it explain why you felt the need to be so elaborate in describing the particular method of rape and murder of young girls in your "rituals" (rather than just saying "this ritual requires human violation and sacrifice").

So yeah, bullshit justifications.

RPGPundit

1. The Snake-Men never raped humans. Rather, the Snake-Men required some of their human slaves to rape others of their human slaves to work the Snake-Men's sorcery.

2. Whether or not a player plays a sorcerer is completely up to him. Whether or not a player of a sorcerer ever performs any of the rituals requiring human sacrifice is completely up to him.

3. My model was M. A. R. Barker's The Book of Ebon Bindings (a work published in 1978 for TSR's 1975 game, Empire of the Petal Throne). The level of detail of murder, rape, and torture is the same in the two works.

Quote from: Balbinus;257656That's correct.

So it does all link back to the Forge, after all...

EDIT: No wait, the author claims Barker as his primary influence.

Geoffrey,

I'd be grateful if you could take a look at my post 39 and let me know if you have any thoughts on issue 2 there.

Thanks if so.

Quote from: JimLotFP;257615It's fluff. You could swap out "sacrifice x person in y manner" in favor of "eat exactly 45 of your favorite potato chips" and nothing changes but the atmosphere. The effects of most of the rituals are even described as fluff, with very little in the way of game mechanics at all.

Hardly the point.  I could swap out a lavishly detailed description of hundreds of raped and mutilated women and children on a battlefield with 'it looks like a teddy bear picnic'.  The original text was still reprehensible.

Similarly, I could swap out FATAL's anal circumference table with a chart for the number of unicorns and butterflies that are in attendance at Princess Prissy Pants' Octember tea cotillion, but that doesn't change the fact that the original authours wrote FATAL and not 'Dancing in the Meadow of Sweetness and Light'.

Quote from: jgants;257665So it does all link back to the Forge, after all...

EDIT: No wait, the author claims Barker as his primary influence.

In my view, Edwards draws heavily on sources such as Barker for his Sorceror & Sword (or on common sources possibly, it's a while since I read it).  I don't see a conflict there.

Quote from: Balbinus;257656That's correct.

So he's a Forger after all??!

Oh, that's rich.

And he was "inspired" by Edwards' Sorceror?
Motherfucking case-closed, bitches! :cool:

RPGPundit

Quote from: StormBringer;257671Hardly the point.  I could swap out a lavishly detailed description of hundreds of raped and mutilated women and children on a battlefield with 'it looks like a teddy bear picnic'.  The original text was still reprehensible.

Similarly, I could swap out FATAL's anal circumference table with a chart for the number of unicorns and butterflies that are in attendance at Princess Prissy Pants' Octember tea cotillion, but that doesn't change the fact that the original authours wrote FATAL and not 'Dancing in the Meadow of Sweetness and Light'.

Your point is valid, but I'd note he was responding to a query of mine, and his response was to the point of my query.

Quote from: RPGPundit;257675So he's a Forger after all??!

Oh, that's rich.

And he was "inspired" by Edwards' Sorceror?
Motherfucking case-closed, bitches! :cool:

RPGPundit

Would I then be correct in assuming you won't be bringing out a Carcosa supplement for FtA?

Quote from: Geoffrey;2576643. My model was M. A. R. Barker's The Book of Ebon Bindings (a work published in 1978 for TSR's 1975 game, Empire of the Petal Throne). The level of detail of murder, rape, and torture is the same in the two works.

Yeah, except that I've seen the Book of Ebon Bindings. It was a supplement, basically a spellbook, written as an imitation of a "Sorcerous Grimoire" in an almost academic level of detail. It wasn't written from the point of view of saying "look how cool it is to play these evil sorcerers! You get to strangle 11 year old girls with their own hair!"

It certainly wasn't written from the point of view of the average Tekumel PC being the one who'd do these rituals. Whereas it seems in your game, the average magic-user has little option but to do so, unless he wants to be powerless (what with there being no regular D&D spells in the game- oh, and only 2 classes).

Also, my memory escapes me, but did Prof. Barker's original work anywhere specify the ages of the virgin sacrifices in question? Or go into detail about exactly how many times they were supposed to be raped before being murdered?

RPGPundit

Quote from: droog;257620But from my point of view it has nothing to do with standards. If I put child abuse into a game, it's because I think it's appropriate to do so. Maybe it makes the game R instead of PG, but so what? I happen to be an adult.

In fact, I don't believe I've ever used that plot element as either a GM or player (I did have a chr who pushed a kid over), but I'm not ruling it out. It's fiction. Some fiction goes to ugly places, and sometimes it's better for it.

I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be a slippery slope to perdition. Perhaps I just have some faith in the strength of my own character.

I respect that position, and agree that adult themes in a game are not a problem for me.  But if you did include graphic child abuse and then write a AP thread or a game featuring those elements, then I reserve the right to publicly skewer you for it.  


TGA

Quote from: Geoffrey;2576641. The Snake-Men never raped humans. Rather, the Snake-Men required some of their human slaves to rape others of their human slaves to work the Snake-Men's sorcery.

Like humans require cattle to rape other cattle before we can have a steak?  You said their interest in humans was no more than our interest in herd animals.

Quote2. Whether or not a player plays a sorcerer is completely up to him. Whether or not a player of a sorcerer ever performs any of the rituals requiring human sacrifice is completely up to him.

So, you provide the details, but disavow responsibility for the outcome?  One charced with incitement to riot is no less culpable for any crimes committed than the rioters themselves.

Quote3. My model was M. A. R. Barker's The Book of Ebon Bindings (a work published in 1978 for TSR's 1975 game, Empire of the Petal Throne). The level of detail of murder, rape, and torture is the same in the two works.

Everything not forbidden is compulsory, then?  You are required to cross that line because someone else did 30yrs ago?

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257654Thank you for coming here to give us your POV.  

A question, however.  Although you say that your players never go into grisly detail in your sessions, why did you feel the need to create a actual play thread in which you describe their actions in prurient detail in fiction based on their POV?  And that was the edited version.  Can you see where this might call into question your detachment, or lack thereof, from truly vile wish fulfillment fantasies?


TGA

Personally, I have never had a good time reading campaign journals. That's why I fictionalized the account, to make it something more readable. I included the grisly detail so as to underscore just how wicked Yogthag and his band were. That makes the deaths of Yogthag and company all the more satisfying. In short, it was poetic justice. Those wicked reprobates who abused and murdered the girl got what they deserved.

As for vile wish fulfillment fantasies, I never think that a man who imagines dark things must himself be wicked. For example, I don't think H. R. Giger must be a bad man because his art is so dark. Neither do I think that a man who imagines good and noble things must himself be righteous. It is all merely imagination.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257682But if you did include graphic child abuse and then write a AP thread or a game featuring those elements, then I reserve the right to publicly skewer you for it.  

Hope you do a better job of it than some of the idiots in this thread.

I have to admit, I never heard of the Barker supplement before.  It sounds repulsive as well, and the kind of thing that didn't help back in the Pat Pulling days.