Quote from: Fritzs;257478So if it's NPCs commiting sick twisted rituals it's OK and if it's PC it's not OK...?

Yes, because:

1.  NPC action like this almost always occurs offstage, and when it is onstage it is traditionally assumed that players are trying to stop it rather than participating.

2.  By protagonizing such behaviour you are making acceptable in your social setting the acting out of fantasies that are, in my opinion, over the line of human decency.  

Quote from: Fritzs;257478And what are you going to do about it... Burn their rulebooks, DDoS their sites, kick their faces, sacrifice them to Satan?

My vote is for mocking and shunning them?  What do you plan to do?  Got your PayPal account ready, I assume?


TGA

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;2575162.  By protagonizing such behaviour you are making acceptable in your social setting the acting out of fantasies that are, in my opinion, over the line of human decency.

But the mass slaughter common in RPGs... that must be perfectly OK to fantasize about. Very decent.

Here is what the author has to say on the subject.

Quote from: noisms;257470Calling it Supplement V is more than a little grandiose -talk about putting yourself on a pedestal. Unless Mr. McKinney had something to do with the first four supplements, that is.
 

All the other stuff aside, this sort of hubris really turns me off.  If I write a sonnet, I don't go around calling myself Shakespeare's successor. Unless Gygax or Arneson personally endorsed a product as a direct extension of their original products, calling something Supplement V is seriously dickish.

Quote from: Melan;257482What I find relevant is that he seems to play games with very little player-PC identification - seeing characters as playing pieces that get discarded and battered instead of being emphasised with (see his Gamma World report on DF).

And yet his actual play description takes the form of a detailed piece of fiction from the POV of the PCs.  It is not detached at all.  It was not the "yeah, we do what is necessary" that the players apparently limited themselves to. Even in its sanitized version it is filled with prurient details that speak to the GMs fantasy fulfillment, if not that of their entire group.

Quote from: Melan;257482However, I strongly agree that important lines have been crossed which I personally would never even have come near, and that this, for all intents and purposes, will sink the work, no matter how great it is otherwise. And that is a pity. But no matter how clinically approached and authentic, some subjects are not for exploration.

This is a difficult topic for me, and I have had to carefully consider my reactions.  I am a big fan of Sword & Sorcery.  I am a big fan of Tekumel.  I do not as a rule shy away from difficult moral issues in my gaming.  At all.  This just crosses the line of basic human decency.  I know this is notion is unfashionable to some, but I believe that there are limits to what can be explored in this hobby without the serious risk of losing some of your humanity.

Am I a prude? Hardly.  A book-burning moral crusader?  Nope.  A hypocrite because I have played and enjoyed playing in Tekumel games as an amoral priest of change who certainly participated in terrible acts (all offstage in the pursuit of power) and took human slavery as being granted?  Perhaps.

But I believe that the explicit fantasy of participating in child sexual abuse is unacceptable to me as a human being.  If it isn't to you, then I will not stop you from buying this product, but you have my pity.


TGA

Quote from: Kellri;257417Despite his claims to being inspired by Lovecraft and MAR Barker the real inspiration for this smut is internet fetish porn and Poppy Z. Brite-style gore.

Some fans of Lovecraft fail to understand that Lovecraft's merit comes from implying, rather than describing. He suggests bizarre, horrific stuff, and leaves it at that.

However, these fans take the graphic scenarios dredged up from their own imaginations and then package them as Lovecraftian horror. They completely miss the point. Nobody is interested in sharing their explicit horror scenes, except other fetishists.

Quote from: JimLotFP;257517But the mass slaughter common in RPGs... that must be perfectly OK to fantasize about. Very decent.

Hey, you are the one apparently defending the fantasization of the sexual abuse of a child.  If I am guilty of nothing more than a little hypocrisy, then I can live with that.


TGA

Quote from: Fritzs;257478So if it's NPCs commiting sick twisted rituals it's OK and if it's PC it's not OK...?

It's the difference between the PCs, as cops, tracking down a pedophile and the players creating PCs to play-out their own NAMBLA fantasies.

Melan you seem like you know your around the DF community, what is the consensus there regarding a supplement like this ?

Regards,
David R

Since even nuancing the picture can/will get you branded as a child rape-apologist, and I really, really do not want to go there, I will bow out of this subject here or on other forums. It is not discussable. It is not defendable. It is foolish. And it is a shame.

That is my last comment. See you guys in other discussions.

QuoteBut I believe that the explicit fantasy of participating in child sexual abuse is unacceptable to me as a human being.

The thing is that some of us don't really see what we do as 'fantasies'. That's reserved for those who are in it for wish-fulfillment.

People doing this stuff aren't necessarily wanting to be able to do it in real life.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianThis just crosses the line of basic human decency. I know this is notion is unfashionable to some, but I believe that there are limits to what can be explored in this hobby without the serious risk of losing some of your humanity.

After rading this I held my head betweem my hands and creamed like I just saw hell for about ten seconds... then I colapsed laughting.

Man, seriously, there is no "humanity" score, that you might lose if you... imagine bad stuff, or even if you fap to it. Even if you are sadistic canibalstistic commie nazi massmurdered necrophiliac pederast, who has ruined thousands lives in order to satisfy your twisted desires you are still human being. Real world isn't fucking White Wolf game. Actually these twisted fantasies are, among many other things, also part of "humanity". That centranly doesn't mean you must imagine yourself raping kids, but doing so doesn't make you any less human.

I think, less White Wolf would be good for you...

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;257527This is a difficult topic for me, and I have had to carefully consider my reactions.  I am a big fan of Sword & Sorcery.  I am a big fan of Tekumel.  I do not as a rule shy away from difficult moral issues in my gaming.  At all.  This just crosses the line of basic human decency.  I know this is notion is unfashionable to some, but I believe that there are limits to what can be explored in this hobby without the serious risk of losing some of your humanity.

Am I a prude? Hardly.  A book-burning moral crusader?  Nope.  A hypocrite because I have played and enjoyed playing in Tekumel games as an amoral priest of change who certainly participated in terrible acts (all offstage in the pursuit of power) and took human slavery as being granted?  Perhaps.

But I believe that the explicit fantasy of participating in child sexual abuse is unacceptable to me as a human being.  If it isn't to you, then I will not stop you from buying this product, but you have my pity.

When you talk like this, The Good Assyrian, I am much more inclined to listen and appreciate your point of view.  

I have played evil characters, but the most evil they got was backstabbing other party members and killing supposedly "good" NPC's and generally in pretty standard D&D killing (i.e. non-graphic depletion of hit points, quickly).  The few times we had to interrogate someone for info, we always ended up backing off.  I think now that I might be able to play an evil sorceror doing all that stuff if it was off-camera, but I kind of doubt it.  I like the idea of the totally maddened magician deep into evil for power's sake, but actually roleplaying out the details of that would probably freak me out.

On the other hand, the inclusion of elements of evil and truly cruel behaviour are a staple of fiction.  I just read The Vendetta for instance, a 70s paperback novel about a mafia war in the 30s, a direct descendant of the pulps.  There is a scene where a gang invades the country house of their opponent.  A rich socialite that the leader had been sleeping with is there and after killing all the men, they rape her on the front lawn.  It's a rough scene and it's set up showing her as horny and impatient as she waits for the gangster boss to come back (before the invaders arrive).  The actual raping is a couple of sentences, but the part where she is dragged out and forced to strip on the front lawn in front of all the invading men is quite drawn out.  Classic '70s mysogyny but I would say something that helped make the book tough and intense.

I would say there is room in certain RPGs for that kind of thing, if that is the content level the group has agreed on.  The PCs roleplaying out the rape, I agree would be utterly unfun for me or anyone I play with, but I could see someone playing the gangster boss who orders that the violation take place.

So, in this case we have a self-important asshat who calls his house rules "Supplement V" so he can get people to buy his disgusting piece of filth supplement.

Between this and the maid game, and the people here who are actually expressing excitement over buying these things, I'm thinking more and more Pundit was right.  People seem intent on sexualizing the hobby (even if they aren't all from the forge), and I'm starting to wonder if I'd rather just leave than be associated with people like that.

Did the Gary Gygax original supplements have all those human races of different colours?