Quote from: David R;257834Stormbringer, no offence, but you're in even more dodgier territory than TGA. I think I may have some idea where you trying to go, but I'm afraid I don't agree with you. I wish I could be a little more specific, but really although well written, you have not given me anything substantial to argue against.

Regards,
David R

Part of it is a simple plea to focus on what is good about human nature.  But I believe that the focus on our darker parts causes some psychological trauma, the least of which is cognitive dissonance between our essentially good nature, and the darkness we all struggle against.  If we only look to our darker natures, the good parts become anemic and atrophy, until even mundane thoughts bend away from others to ourselves alone.  Seeking the least of our own gratifications or avoidance of the smallest of inconveniences becomes the impetus for the banal malfeasance we perpetrate every day.  Cutting someone off in traffic to gain those few extra seconds at the next light, watching someone belittle their spouse with morbid fascination, walking past someone obviously struggling with too many bags of groceries to hear the bags scatter across the parking lot...  All the while congratulating ourselves for not driving so slowly, or for staying out of other people's business, or for not being so stupid with our own grocieres.

I guess you aren't finding a point to discuss because I don't really have one.  Just a statement of belief, as to why, aside from the content itself, I think these kinds of games are damaging to us all.  We can recognize the darkness, we can examine its boundries; when we start to delve into it too deeply, we risk losing sight of our better selves.  We carry the attitude with us for the rest of the day, or the rest of the week.  Sometimes, for the rest of our lives.

Quote from: jgantsThere's a reason sex offenders aren't allowed to view pornographic material when they are in prison / on parole.

Yes, there is some therapy for them I have no idea if it involves watching porn or not but probably not... Well, there is some difference between being imprisoned and being free, but with deviant urges you really don't want to fulfil.

Quote from: DrohemCastration is not a cure.

Why...? It removes the problem, like, let's say amputating leg with carcer. of course on could argue that only sure way to solve the porblem oce and for all is placing hole in pedophiles head using bullet. Anyway that's what demons in disguise of humans deserve, isn't it...?

So, if you are ever diagnosed, or diagnose yourself as pedophile, should you do your citizen duty and kill yourself, because you are not human...?

Quote from: walkerp;257898Both examples of the kind of emotion-based reasoning that ends up hurting people a lot worse than the actual danger.

When you say things like pedophiles are demons in human form, it's clear that you are not paying attention to details of vocabulary or the complexities of psychology that are being put forth and instead just feel like spewing out a bunch of righteous fire.

What "details of vocabulary or the complexities of psychology that are being put forth" are you talking about?  I've seen nothing of sort here thus far.

My comment that pedophiles are demons in human guise was not meant literally, if that's what you are thinking.  I am no religious zealot.  I do not believe in the Judo-Christian God.

However, it was born out of righteous fire.  My grandfather molested myself, my mother, my uncle, my little brother, and my little sister.  He even molested a 12-year-old distant cousin when he went home to visit before he died in his mid-seventies.  It boggles my mind that someone would make the claim that pedophiles don't rape children because they love them.  My grandfather claimed to love all of us in his family, yet he destroyed all these lives in one way or another be raping us.

Quote from: Drohem;257906What "details of vocabulary or the complexities of psychology that are being put forth" are you talking about?  I've seen nothing of sort here thus far.

My comment that pedophiles are demons in human guise was not meant literally, if that's what you are thinking.  I am no religious zealot.  I do not believe in the Judo-Christian God.

However, it was born out of righteous fire.  My grandfather molested myself, my mother, my uncle, my little brother, and my little sister.  He even molested a 12-year-old distant cousin when he went home to visit before he died in his mid-seventies.  It boggles my mind that someone would make the claim that pedophiles don't rape children because they love them.  My grandfather claimed to love all of us in his family, yet he destroyed all these lives in one way or another be raping us.

Your grandfather was a child-molester and a rapist.  He was also a pedophile.  The former is a smaller subset of the latter.  A pedophile is a much larger group and while probably mostly morally reprehensible, not necessarily all violent rapists.  That's what I'm talking about when I mean details of vocabulary.  It's the point Fritzs was trying to make.

There are pedophiles who have desires to rape children but have not done so.  What do we do with them?

Quote from: SoulBringerwe risk losing sight of our better selves.

I don't risk anything, I have no better self, I am pure destiled evil in human form.

Quote from: Fritzs;257905Why...? It removes the problem, like, let's say amputating leg with carcer. of course on could argue that only sure way to solve the porblem oce and for all is placing hole in pedophiles head using bullet. Anyway that's what demons in disguise of humans deserve, isn't it...?

Castration does not remove the problem.

Quote from: walkerp;257908That's what I'm talking about when I mean details of vocabulary.  It's the point Fritzs was trying to make.

There are pedophiles who have desires to rape children but have not done so.  What do we do with them?

There was no sophistication or subtly of vocabulary in the point that Fritz was trying to make.  

In reference to your last question and Fritzs' last post, I think that you can already guess my answer.

Quote from: Drohem;257919Castration does not remove the problem.

From what I understand, this is true.  It can actually exacerbate the problem as the psychological urge is still there, but not the physical outlet.  So the outlet can turn to other behaviours like physical cruelty.  It's a bad scene all around.

Quote from: Geoffrey;257769I've been playing D&D since 1980. I have never seen anyone engage in violence, occultism, deviance, etc. because of his involvement with D&D or with other RPGs. The only thing some D&D players of my acquaintance have been guilty of is neglecting their homework in order to play some more D&D.

Yes, I don't buy at all the idea that this material will make anyone "go bad" who wasn't already bad.  The problem is that what it can do is attract some of those "already bad" to the hobby, by suggesting that here we think that kind of stuff is normal and acceptable.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Fritzs;257785Not true... pedophiles tend not to molest kids, they are people who really love preten kids and yes, they are sexualy aroused by them to some degree. But as yourself would you rape someone you love?

Oh, Jesus Fuck.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Drohem;257880Yes, pedophiles are demons in human guise.

Drohem, let's be careful not to go to the other extreme here; Fritzs' going to one extreme of stupidity in his statements is not dealt with by going to another extreme of stupidity.

RPGPundit

EDIT: With all due respect to your experiences, and I'm sorry to hear about them; and I can understand why you'd have very strong negative feelings about them (and no doubt about games like this one or Maid that feature this stuff, however peripherally or not).  Still, you get no where by suggesting that this issue is not an issue of humanity.  Fritzs' statement was the height of stupidity and worth ridiculing; and given your experiences I can understand why your first reaction might have been to write what you wrote, but that just opens the door for the apologists out there to make all kinds of ongoing stupid statements in their "favour".

Quote from: RPGPundit;257929Drohem, let's be careful not to go to the other extreme here; Fritzs' going to one extreme of stupidity in his statements is not dealt with by going to another extreme of stupidity.

RPGPundit

Yeah, I hear you.  As I explained to Walkerp, that was not meant literally, or from any religious-based point of view.  That response mirrored the stupidity of the original statement.

I tried really hard to stay out of the Maid discussion regarding children and sex.  However, the statements made by Fritz here were just so incrediblely stupid that I could not bite my tongue any longer on the subject.

Quote from: Fritzs;257909I don't risk anything, I have no better self, I am pure destiled evil in human form.

After seeing you ride to the defense of pedophiles everywhere, I don't doubt it.

I wrote this on the DF boards:

Quote from: jfallEither way, what's most intriguing to me is the fact that people are so diametrically opposed over something as fringe as a game "supplement". It's crazy!

I think that Geoffrey has every right to publish what he likes. Buy it or don't, that's your right. At least that's the way it "used" to work in the good ol U.S. of A.

Personally though, threatening Geoff with posts that claim he might be persecuted legally by shipping his product across state lines is repugnant. It's plain crazy.

Criticize the work if you like, but don't demonize the author.

A bit of cuts and this is what I think.

Another guy said:

QuoteI'll say it for the record: Geoffrey... you are a disgusting, mentally ill excuse for a human being for which no punishment is too severe. You're hiding behind the curtain of "fiction" in order to write about some pretty sick . I want nothing to do with you in any form whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I'm thinking of pointing the FBI your direction and see what their reaction might be to the whole matter. In any case, legal or no, you've ceased to exist as a homo sapien in my book.

I think that this is pre-jugding someone with no proof. Pointing fingers is also bad, and inmmoral, more if based just on some review of an RPG product.

I'm a Catholic and though I may not share those particular lines of the supplement, I don't think I'm in the position of condemning someone and set me up as a superior moral person, because I'm probally not. The product also has a lot more than this passages, and it's very good game material. Each is responsible for what he o she uses in his own campaing. Do not set yourself as the police of what should or not should be published in an RPG product and mind your own morals.

Geoffrey has been a very nice, polite, civil and friendly member of our community. I think he at least deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Quote from: Balbinus;257788You may well be right, certainly mechanics require less effort on the GM's part than fluff.

I once stopped PCs lynching a bad guy merely by describing the scene in detail and making him pathetic.  It worked well, but it was a lot more work than saying "you'll each take 1d6 san if you go through with this".  I mean, on that occasion it was worth the work, but it was more work.

Certainly, this sounds like an occasion where the effort in making up the fluff paid off in spades.

I would assume that Frodo didn't fail his sans pitie check or some Pendragon-like Passion roll to stay his hand in killing Gollum, for example.  It was the wretchedness of the creature that prevented him from being killed; by all accounts, it would have been justified, but Frodo's (Bilbo's, Gandalf's, &c.) basic nature prevented him from doing so, a point made by your group as well.