Hello everyone! I am a returning tabletop player after many years away. I am aware forums often have beginner topics pop up from time to time so if I just need to be pointed to a proper place for the information instead of talking in this topic please let me know. No need for a "reset the clock" moment ;)
I began re-immersing myself by talking to some players more local to me about suggestions and this of course led to D&D 5e. However as I went over it I found it just wasn't much for me and I began learning about this thing called... The OSR! It seems really neat and I have of course got some experience with playing old D&D many years ago, mostly AD&D 2e. I have watched MANY videos on the subject and obviously found RPGPundit and my way here. However I'm still left with some questions and maybe there are some answers here? I hope anyway... I'll just pose a few.
I have noticed that OSR Essentials is probably a great resource for a one-stop shop on running a super wide variety of games. PDF's are ok but really I would like books to have. I did find that there is a nice couple of sets but currently aren't being printed or are awaiting another release by Necrotic Gnome. Is it true that these sets are very limited run and done in editions? Are previous versions less desirable or more? Would I be better off just waiting a little while for their next proposed version to release?
Another thing I noticed is that community interaction might be a little opaque at times. Hard to locate at least for me. I did find my way here but I'm more used to Discords or other formats. Is this a favorite spot or is there a larger community for the "True" OSR to gather and chat?
Anyway I guess that's enough for now. Hopefully these are some welcome questions and maybe we can discuss. Thanks!
If you like games based on B/X you might like Basic Fantasy, their PDFs are free to download and the printed books dirt cheap.
Link to their downloads page: https://www.basicfantasy.org/downloads.html (https://www.basicfantasy.org/downloads.html)
Link to buy the printed books: https://www.basicfantasy.org/buytherules.html (https://www.basicfantasy.org/buytherules.html)
Ok thanks for that!
But this immediately brings up another question for me... What is B/x? ;D This was a thing I noticed as well, I'm waaaaay behind on current terminology. Or maybe it's even older terminology and I'm just that clueless.
Quote from: Rayer on August 24, 2022, 06:13:29 PM
Ok thanks for that!
But this immediately brings up another question for me... What is B/x? ;D This was a thing I noticed as well, I'm waaaaay behind on current terminology. Or maybe it's even older terminology and I'm just that clueless.
Here's a quick breakdown: "OD&D" is most often used to refer to the original 1974 white books, although sometimes it's also used to refer to what is also called the 'basic' game as opposed to AD&D. Products that refer to the "White Box" are typically designed for use with this set of rules, and "Swords & Wizardry White Box" and "White Box: Fantastic Adventures Rules" are replicas of it. ("Swords & Wizardry Complete", by contrast, is based on this game
plus the various supplements--
Greyhawk,
Blackmoor,
Eldritch Wizardry,etc.)
"Holmes" is the blue-covered 1978 Basic rules, named for J. Eric Holmes, the editor. Since this was meant to lead directly into AD&D (unlike the later Basic sets, which were more distinctly their own game), it doesn't get as much attention, but the "Blueholme" retroclone is out there.
"B/X", "BX," "Moldvay" and "Moldvay/Cook" are various ways to describe the 1981 Basic and Expert sets, edited by Tom Moldvay (Basic) and David "Zeb" Cook (Expert), with covers by Erol Otus. This is what Old School Essentials uses for its baseline. It's also cloned by Basic Fantasy and Labyrinth Lord, and used as a baseline for numerous variations, such as the Adventurer Conqueror King System.
"BECMI" or "Mentzer" refers to the 1983 revision of Basic, edited by Frank Mentzer, with covers by Larry Elmore, and later collected into the Rules Cyclopedia. This one doesn't have nearly the following of B/X, with Dark Dungeons (by Gurbintroll Press) being the only retroclone I'm aware of.
AD&D and AD&D 2E are pretty self-explanatory. :) AD&D is retrocloned by "OSRIC," AD&D 2E by "For Gold & Glory." Worthy of note is "Adventures Dark & Deep," which tries to be a variation based on the hints Gygax dropped about where he was planning to take AD&D for a second edition.
Some of the books on the list ( very few IIRC) aren't available anymore but this is a great resource:
http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.html (http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.html)
Welcome to the dark side. Enjoy the milk and cookies.
Oh that's a great help. Yeah I didn't think it would be too easy to find out a lot of this info quickly without asking some questions. I suppose my question about the OSE that Necrotic Gnome is making kind of remains... Is it specifically desirable or not for any reasons? I am pretty quickly noticing the alternatives being mentioned. Is there any reason that those might be more desirable besides cost maybe?
Quote from: Rayer on August 24, 2022, 06:32:30 PM
QuoteHere's a quick breakdown: "OD&D" is most often used to refer to the original 1974 white books, although sometimes it's also used to refer to what is also called the 'basic' game as opposed to AD&D. Products that refer to the "White Box" are typically designed for use with this set of rules, and "Swords & Wizardry White Box" and "White Box: Fantastic Adventures Rules" are replicas of it. ("Swords & Wizardry Complete", by contrast, is based on this game plus the various supplements--Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry,etc.)
"Holmes" is the blue-covered 1978 Basic rules, named for J. Eric Holmes, the editor. Since this was meant to lead directly into AD&D (unlike the later Basic sets, which were more distinctly their own game), it doesn't get as much attention, but the "Blueholme" retroclone is out there.
"B/X", "BX," "Moldvay" and "Moldvay/Cook" are various ways to describe the 1981 Basic and Expert sets, edited by Tom Moldvay (Basic) and David "Zeb" Cook (Expert), with covers by Erol Otus. This is what Old School Essentials uses for its baseline. It's also cloned by Basic Fantasy and Labyrinth Lord, and used as a baseline for numerous variations, such as the Adventurer Conqueror King System.
"BECMI" or "Mentzer" refers to the 1983 revision of Basic, edited by Frank Mentzer, with covers by Larry Elmore, and later collected into the Rules Cyclopedia. This one doesn't have nearly the following of B/X, with Dark Dungeons (by Gurbintroll Press) being the only retroclone I'm aware of.
AD&D and AD&D 2E are pretty self-explanatory. :) AD&D is retrocloned by "OSRIC," AD&D 2E by "For Gold & Glory." Worthy of note is "Adventures Dark & Deep," which tries to be a variation based on the hints Gygax dropped about where he was planning to take AD&D for a second edition.
Oh that's a great help. Yeah I didn't think it would be too easy to find out a lot of this info quickly without asking some questions. I suppose my question about the OSE that Necrotic Gnome is making kind of remains... Is it specifically desirable or not for any reasons? I am pretty quickly noticing the alternatives being mentioned. Is there any reason that those might be more desirable besides cost maybe?
That you can currently buy them?
That (in some cases) you can legally download the PDF and see if you like the game before buying the printed books?
Of course the price is also a big contender.
Yeah availability is nice for sure. I suppose aesthetic, layout, and long-term quality of the print are more important to me than immediacy or price. I was more concerned over whether I might be supporting a publisher I might not want to or if perhaps that OSE material isn't really the starting point I'm actually after as well. I don't plan to branch off of a core system for a while or at least I hope not to.
I primarily played a lot of AD&D 2e but after the research I have already done I believe a 1e clone may work out better for my purposes. I'm currently taking my time to create a setting and later adapt the necessary rules set. I was also interested in looking into the Hyberborea line and taking some choice mechanics from that. But maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse.
If you're interested in physical books, I recommend checking out Noble Knight Games. Some out of print books can get pricey, and I don't think you can avoid that (other than using the significantly less expensive PDFs). Of course, not everything made it to print anyway. In any case, they've always been good to me; I've always gotten what I've ordered and never had any problems.
Edit - Here's a Link (https://www.nobleknight.com/Products/Old-School-Essentials) to a listing of their OSE offerings.
Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 06:47:51 PM
If you're interested in physical books, I recommend checking out Noble Knight Games. Some out of print books can get pricey, and I don't think you can avoid that (other than using the significantly less expensive PDFs). Of course, not everything made it to print anyway. In any case, they've always been good to me; I've always gotten what I've ordered and never had any problems.
Edit - Here's a Link (https://www.nobleknight.com/Products/Old-School-Essentials) to a listing of their OSE offerings.
Hey thanks for that as well!
So yeah I'm still noticing that there may be different versions of those books. And does the pricing vary? I'm not AS concerned with price of course but I don't want to overpay just because a first edition is higher than a third or fourth edition. If it's the same material reprinted with new art that doesn't exactly matter to me.
Quote from: Rayer on August 24, 2022, 06:43:04 PM
Yeah availability is nice for sure. I suppose aesthetic, layout, and long-term quality of the print are more important to me than immediacy or price. I was more concerned over whether I might be supporting a publisher I might not want to or if perhaps that OSE material isn't really the starting point I'm actually after as well. I don't plan to branch off of a core system for a while or at least I hope not to.
I primarily played a lot of AD&D 2e but after the research I have already done I believe a 1e clone may work out better for my purposes. I'm currently taking my time to create a setting and later adapt the necessary rules set. I was also interested in looking into the Hyberborea line and taking some choice mechanics from that. But maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse.
Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea is good. And it's based on 1e.
OSE is based of the Basic D&D from the Basic Expert set.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 06:54:27 PM
Quote from: Rayer on August 24, 2022, 06:43:04 PM
Yeah availability is nice for sure. I suppose aesthetic, layout, and long-term quality of the print are more important to me than immediacy or price. I was more concerned over whether I might be supporting a publisher I might not want to or if perhaps that OSE material isn't really the starting point I'm actually after as well. I don't plan to branch off of a core system for a while or at least I hope not to.
I primarily played a lot of AD&D 2e but after the research I have already done I believe a 1e clone may work out better for my purposes. I'm currently taking my time to create a setting and later adapt the necessary rules set. I was also interested in looking into the Hyberborea line and taking some choice mechanics from that. But maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse.
Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea is good. And it's based on 1e.
OSE is based of the Basic D&D from the Basic Expert set.
Ok great. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this though... Is the OSE Advanced Expansion not also pretty much 1e?
Quote from: Rayer on August 24, 2022, 06:58:04 PM
Ok great. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this though... Is the OSE Advanced Expansion not also pretty much 1e?
OSE Advanced translates the 'stuff'--races, classes, monsters, spells, magic items--from 1E to OSE (aka B/X rules), but doesn't give you all the rules and details of AD&D 1E. So your classes will have lower Hit Dice, your fighter-types won't have exceptional Strength, etc.
Mmm... Ok this is helping me clear up some stuff then. I might be better off looking at one of the alternative 1e OSR core books with that in mind. And while I don't mind paying a fair price for a nice product I'm seeing some stuff for upwards of $300 USD and that's not really what I'm looking to spend starting out. Thanks.
I suppose a final question I might have for today is does any Discord exist that's friendly to the non-woke OSR community? I quite like Discord as a communication medium and it would be nice to find a server.
I recently bought the Old School Essentials Player's book (and PDF ) online, so there's still some about. Have a look on Ebay as well.
I ordered the referee book too recently, although not arrived yet.
They're a fun read and an easy to use.
I'm already running OSE online on Roll20 and Discord. Very smooth to use.
You can pick up Old School Essentials in print from Exalted Funeral.
https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/collections/necrotic-gnome
Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers is a great game, but I should give a slight consumer warning on it. If you buy the second edition, only the player's guide is currently available in hard copy, which does not include the gazetteer or bestiary. If you buy the 3rd edition, the books are some expensive ($100 for the players and GM's guide bundle), and they are on a long lead time. I ordered mine a few weeks ago, and was told the delivery would be sometime "late" this year.
Based on the quality of the previous releases, it'll probably be worth it, but not super useful if you want to start playing with it right now.
Since you mentioned BX, and asked about Old School Essentials:
Games and Stuff, in Maryland, United States
They have the OSE Classic Fantasy Rules Tome hardcover, in stock for $40. It's a complete BX clone in one book.
They also have several different books for OSE Advanced Fantasy.
The OSR also goes in directions you may not expect. There are other things than swords and elves you know.
White Star: Galaxy Edition. It's Star Wars. With some other sci-fi bits added in as well. Transformers, Star Trek, and Dr Who in particular. Based on White Box/0-D&D. It's default is Vancian magic powers (use power once, then forget it from your brain slot).
Star Adventurer. This is also Star Wars, but it has replaced the Vancian magic with skill check based powers. Leveling up is a random table of bonuses, so two people of the same class will likely diverge in different directions as you play. It's also cheap. However, it has no NPCs stated out. Not even a poorly trained storm trooper. In fact it has no GM tools of any kind. Not even a glossary of terminology. I recommend an experienced GM only run this game.
Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition. Replaces the D20 with a dice chain system. Stats and skills all start out as a 1D4, then you upgrade/replace each with a D6, then D8, D10, then end on a D12 at max level. Dice rolls are a stat and a skill, and often additional dice from class and racial abilities, like dwarves get a free D4 when using axes or hammers. Pick the best 2 dice and add. It's also kid friendly with Chibi/Cutesy art, minimal math, and not a lot of record keeping.
*** There is another Dungeons and Delvers Black that is more traditional D&D. It mainly replaces the Vancian magic with mana point system.
Deathbringer. Written by Dungeon Craft YouTube channel's Professor Dungeon Master. This is a super rules lite game that trims down the rules to fit on just a few pages. Brutal and grim, where players die easily. However, experienced GM is needed since without all the explanations for anything you may be lost or confused. No monster stats or spells are included. It does have a unique Deathbringer Dice system where you get some D6 dice to add to any die roll at any time. You can even use all you have to pump up a single die roll like damage, letting you 1-shot somebody.
Pocket Fantasy. Another free game. Replaces ALL the dice with just a 1D6. Very rules lite, yet has a monster list and dungeon builder. There are no levels. Instead you get points that you can use for re-rolls, or to get more uses for you class abilities. Magic is six known combat spells, with wizards able to cast two per battle. However, out of combat magic is anything the GM will allow, set by a difficulty check between 2-6. Two out of combat spells per session. Or trade in re-roll tokens to get more. Like I said, it's free so just check it out for yourself. I do recommend getting the extra classes and the magic item pages too.
Operation White Box. It's D&D rules, but the setting is World War 2 in France. Guns and grenades, Maquis agents, and special forces commandos. Yeah. It's not magic and dragons.
Starships and Spacemen. It's original series Star Trek. It uses a roll under your skill system. Armor is applied as a penalty to the other guy's skill number. To be honest, it's the same thing as D&D, just inverted. Also, psi powers use psi points, so this is another game that ditches the Vancian magic system of spell slots that are forgotten after use.
Quote from: Rayer on August 24, 2022, 07:46:50 PM
I suppose a final question I might have for today is does any Discord exist that's friendly to the non-woke OSR community? I quite like Discord as a communication medium and it would be nice to find a server.
You could try the Tenkar's Tavern Discord, which covers pretty much the gamut of the OSR.
I also like the Autarch Discord channel. Technically it supports Adventurer, Conqueror, King, which is a pretty awesome flavor of B/X D&D, but I find that Alex Macris (the owner) and many of the members to be both smart and super-helpful so I enjoy hanging out there.
White Box, Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game is a neat game, and is a clone of original edition D&D. It's a clone of the three little brown booklets, plus the Thief Class from Greyhawk.
White Box is a lot of fun, and simple; but it doesn't have the girth of content in a single volume, that OSE Classic Fantasy has.
White Box is less than $5 for the softcover.
Quote from: Rayer on August 24, 2022, 06:43:04 PM
I was more concerned over whether I might be supporting a publisher I might not want to
If you haven't seen it, it sounds like The Consumer's Guide to TTRPGs (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RlX78Yw9lbUMk2QwAZdpwNRGAd4Xe69eFgnFymWz6M0/edit#heading=h.jaoh4ohrikt8) might be of use to you.
Quote from: Rayer on August 24, 2022, 07:19:05 PM
I might be better off looking at one of the alternative 1e OSR core books with that in mind.
I really enjoy Advanced Labyrinth Lord for an OSR take on a 1e style game.
My choice for OSR would be Basic Fantasy. It's B/X with modernization fixes to use ascending armor class, and separating class vs race. Races as classes was a thing back in the day.
You really only need the core book. It has monsters in it for you. Also, it's stupidly cheap. Free PDFs and the book is only $5.
Quote from: Rayer on August 24, 2022, 07:19:05 PM
Mmm... Ok this is helping me clear up some stuff then. I might be better off looking at one of the alternative 1e OSR core books with that in mind. And while I don't mind paying a fair price for a nice product I'm seeing some stuff for upwards of $300 USD and that's not really what I'm looking to spend starting out. Thanks.
OSRIC is mostly the same a 1E's core rules. Finch and Marshall left of out some of the stuff no-one used anyway and some appendix stuff. https://www.lulu.com/shop/stuart-marshall/osric-22-hc/hardcover/product-1yz9kqmm.html?q=osric&page=1&pageSize=4 (https://www.lulu.com/shop/stuart-marshall/osric-22-hc/hardcover/product-1yz9kqmm.html?q=osric&page=1&pageSize=4) I think Black Blade Publishing also has an offset press printed version that's around the same price.
Hey thanks for all these great replies.
Some excellent information in all of those I'm definitely going to use.
Following looking into most of this I was taking a look at OSRIC and I know that has a free PDF version so that will at least let me learn what it's all about. I am also looking at the Hyberborean 2E Player book because that might mesh well with some other Advanced 1e style stuff.
Quote from: Rayer on August 25, 2022, 12:48:08 PM
Some excellent information in all of those I'm definitely going to use.
To add to the list you may find some useful material from my blog here
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/p/stuff-in-attic.html
Along with my offerings from DriveThruRPG
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/2993/Bat-in-the-Attic-Games
Also a lot of folks found my How to Make a Fantasy Setting series of posts useful.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-make-fantasy-sandbox.html
And there is a shorter Traveller one
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-make-traveller-sandbox.html
Ever tried Lamentations of the Flame Princess? Some of the adventures are pretty NSFW, but the core rules are pretty solid and you can get the art free version on drivethrurpg for free. If you were going to make your own campaign and not rely too much on pre made adventures then the NSFW aspects wouldn't even be a factor. There are some pretty cool adventures made for it as well if you are into a more weird horror vibe or maybe Troma movies.
Swords and Wizardry is fairly easy to learn and use and you can find the rules for free :
http://www.swordsnwizardry.com/