Recently, I came into possession of the 1991 D&D boxed set: this was in a double-sized longbox, like a boardgame, but it contained the normal rulebook, a system of DM reference cards, a DM screen, and a poster-sized map.
My son had a friend over this weekend and they wanted to try it out so I downloaded Palace of the Silver Princess from RPGNow and we went for it.
Here's what I learned:
1) Making characters was really quick. Even equipping them was quick, because there are so few choices.
2) A player can control more than one PC per player fairly easily. We didn't emphasize roleplaying that much, but my son and his friend did it naturally anyway- little things like 'pretend arguing' over treasure or whatever. They each made a few characters, and played 2 each. Looking back at the Ron Edwards attempt to play D&D 3 I can see where he would get the idea that its a good idea to have players control more than one character. It was totally valid in 1991.
3) We made straight by-the-rules characters: 3d6 in order. These were brutal! Many characters ended up with 7's and 8's. But we also had one guy with a 17 Intelligence, and a couple of guys with 15's and 16's in strength. It was kinda fun rolling stats first and then seeing what they would best be suited as.
4) The elf is ridiculously overpowered (he gets armor, hitpoints, special abilities, and spells). His only penalty is it takes him longer to level: 4000 Xp to go to 2nd level. They made one elf each, and one 'other'. My son replaced his magic user with a fighter fairly soon, though.
5) hit points were beyond nerfed: fighters get 1d8. Thieves get 1d4. clerics get 1d6, and no spells until 2nd level... It became necessary to house rule death in order to avoid having to continually make up new characters. So we decided that 'losing all hit points now counts as either dead or unconscious (players choice).' And we further ruled that 8 hours of rest heals you up one full hit dice.
6) Gold is XP, as per the rules. This turned out to be neccesary! Because you fight say.. skeletons. Worth 15 xp each. If gold doesn't count towards XP, you will need to fight 133 skeleons each for an average party member to level up. And elves will need to fight around 233 skeletons. That just seems wrong. So gold=XP.
7) The basic rulebook emphasizes on interesting point: "actions that take place outside of the dungeon are not covered in these rules." Players were expected to use towns to heal up and re-equip but not to be bound by the rules so much when doing so. Wilderness encounters and such came in later, I guess.
8) Despite the fact that it's kinda perilous, we really liked it for it's simplicity and emphasis on action.
9) the battlemap was not necessary, although the rules are there. We started out using it, and eventually dropped it. There's not much of an advanatge to using a battlemap over simply describing the action. My son and his friend tried a few things like- when they opened a door to a room full of zombies they waited outside the door to have all four of their characters engage one at a time. Or once when they fought a giant rat, they ran outside, waited for the rat to follow and then tried to squish the rat with the door.
After playing this, and after a very cool encounter with the bard in the Palace of the Silver Princess, I ebayed a copy of the Cyclopedia for $40. Then , less than an hour later, I found the pdf of the cyclopedia for $5.95. It's worth a download!
links:
D&D Rules Cyclopedia for like $5.95 on pdf (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1204)
Please be smart and shop from Paizo-mart:
4$ http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/classicDAndD/rulebooks/v5748btpy7mvs (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/classicDAndD/rulebooks/v5748btpy7mvs)
Quote from: SettembriniPlease be smart and shop from Paizo-mart:
4$ http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/classicDAndD/rulebooks/v5748btpy7mvs (http://paizo.com/store/downloads/wizardsOfTheCoast/classicDAndD/rulebooks/v5748btpy7mvs)
Thank you! Even better than my link. That rules.
Good clean fun! :)
However, I'm not familiar with the box set you describe. What levels did it cover? I assume that it was meant to be a lead-in to the RC.
Quote from: AkrasiaGood clean fun! :)
However, I'm not familiar with the box set you describe. What levels did it cover? I assume that it was meant to be a lead-in to the RC.
It only covered levels 1-5, but it seemed very focused on beginners. I think this was called the "big black box" version.
RPGnet review here--> http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_1491.html
It had a flyer for the Rules Cyclopedia "Coming Soon!" inside. So I guess it predates it by only a little.
I have a suspicion that we tend to view our retro-gaming experiences with rose-colored glasses. That being said, I tend to enjoy the simplicity as a respite from some of the Forge-type productions that are so popular now.
Quote from: mattormegI have a suspicion that we tend to view our retro-gaming experiences with rose-colored glasses.
Exactly. It was eye-opening remembering how we used to do stuff. It certainly wasn't perfect, and I think a lot of criticisms that get tossed around were valid in some ways. But a lot of it is way off base:
Here's something, though:
Okay, we're playing Palace of the Silver Princess. Written in 1981. Two 9 year old kids (each playing 2 characters, so a party of 4). I'm the GM.
There are no rules for roleplaying but theyre doing it anyway, but it's not all intense or anything. Then, they encounter 'Rowena' this ghostly bard who, deep in the dungeon appears in her former chamber as the players are exploring it. She explains that they have to take her crystal harp and play a sequence of notes to shatter the Eye of Arik, and lift the curse that traps the palace. The players immediately started asking her questions in character.
This turned out to be a great roleplaying scene, as good as any I've been in. And even though we had to end the game soon after that, I think they both really got into it.
I played the '91 boxed set not too long after it came out. We were all players of varying degrees of grizzledness and had an absolute blast.
Quote from: Abyssal MawThis turned out to be a great roleplaying scene, as good as any I've been in. And even though we had to end the game soon after that, I think they both really got into it.
Seeing or hearing about new players having fun always rocks, for a few sessions my DM let his son play with us and it was cool. His son is no longer allowed such due to behavior problems unfortunantly, but will be back to it in time I am sure. (and when it was my turn to dm I let him run the goblins when I had a pile of them going after the party. :D he had fun, but was disapointed when his goblins were slain.)
Man, that big black box was the first RPG I ever played! It was a situation just like you describe: parent as DM, kids all running PCs. Some of the most (and least, in that good way) fun I've ever had around a table.
Very cool, AM.
Good Job helping to bring new blood into the hobby, Abyssal Maw. I love hearing stories such as this.
Quote from: joewolzGood Job helping to bring new blood into the hobby, Abyssal Maw. I love hearing stories such as this.
Got to agree. It's a cool story AM, especially that bit about the ghostly bard and how she inspired the youngsters to start playing in character. It's nice to be reminded that it doesn't matter how old something is, if it's new to you, then it'll be exciting. Cheers. ;)
Keep in mind that for some of us this isn't "retro", both in the sense that we lived through it the first time around (those were the good old days), and in the sense that we still play with the RC D&D rules regularly and not for retro kitsch value (earlier this year I finished a two-year campaign with my players having started out level 1 and ending up as Immortals).
RPGPundit
I find that when I'm drawn to "retro" games, I'm enticed not by their 'kitsch' value but by the freshness of their feel. When D&D was new, gaming was new; it was fresh, exploratory, simple. Anything goes. Figure it out as we go along.
A lot of those older games are so very open, so very inviting. I'm drawn to their "We're All New At This" attitude. I loves me some HERO, boy, but now and then I just wanna grab a little notecard, write down "Detached Scout, 9AB765, 3 Terms, Pilot-3, Rifle-2", and away we go.
OMG Traveller Reference!
I GMed a Traveller Campaign w/o any Kitsch value. It rocks. the only thing retro about early traveller are some of the illustrations. Everything else is timeless. There are many contemporary games which are dated much earlier, Delta Green for example.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!but now and then I just wanna grab a little notecard, write down "Detached Scout, 9AB765, 3 Terms, Pilot-3, Rifle-2", and away we go.
Hmm, looks interesting, but I don't grok it, can anyone translate the 9AB765 for me?
Str: 9
Dex: 10
End: 11
Int: 7
Edu: 6
Soc: 5
Quote from: SettembriniStr: 9
Dex: 10
End: 11
Int: 7
Edu: 6
Soc: 5
Stats are in Hex?! Interesting indeed. Thanks for the translation Settembrini. Anyone know if Traveler D20 is worth tracking down? I've heard it mentioned here and there, but don't think I've ever seen reviews and such.
It's nice. But you will not understand what Traveller is about. get yourself at least the GURPS Traveller Main Book. The neccessary meta-information of what and how to play Traveller are inside, as well as some historical remarks to better understand the game.
Then make a choice for a rules system, T20 is well done and is a good general SciFi D20 Book. But it's level based and has BABs and some people dislike that for being "unrealistic". Apart from that the career system was nicely ported to d20.
Personally I favor MegaTraveller above all others.
Quote from: cnath.rmStats are in Hex?! Interesting indeed. Thanks for the translation Settembrini. Anyone know if Traveler D20 is worth tracking down? I've heard it mentioned here and there, but don't think I've ever seen reviews and such.
Here's traveller-rpg (http://www.travellerrpg.com/) - with links for Classic, T20, Traveller's Aide, Citizens of the Imperium, and lots more. Enjoy!
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceHere's traveller-rpg (http://www.travellerrpg.com/) - with links for Classic, T20, Traveller's Aide, Citizens of the Imperium, and lots more. Enjoy!
-clash
64pg free T20 Light pdf!! Sweet!!
Quote from: cnath.rmStats are in Hex?! Interesting indeed. Thanks for the translation Settembrini. Anyone know if Traveler D20 is worth tracking down? I've heard it mentioned here and there, but don't think I've ever seen reviews and such.
I have just finished running a long campaign of Traveller "T20", and I can tell you that this book is DEFINITELY worth it not just for Traveller but for any of your D20 sci-fi needs in general.
RPGPundit
Quote from: SettembriniIt's nice. But you will not understand what Traveller is about. get yourself at least the GURPS Traveller Main Book. The neccessary meta-information of what and how to play Traveller are inside, as well as some historical remarks to better understand the game.
Um, if this was his goal... why not just get the original Traveller, rather than GURPS Traveller?
QuoteThen make a choice for a rules system, T20 is well done and is a good general SciFi D20 Book. But it's level based and has BABs and some people dislike that for being "unrealistic". Apart from that the career system was nicely ported to d20.
Personally I favor MegaTraveller above all others.
T20 is level based, but have you seen how it works? They decided not to give a shit about combat-ability as a consideration for "Balance"; so that you can have a 20th Level academic that still can't fight worth shit, as it should be.
RPGPundit
QuoteUm, if this was his goal... why not just get the original Traveller, rather than GURPS Traveller?
Because Loren Wiseman had the luxury to look back at 25 years of Trav play to show how Trav can be played. The LBBs really don't tell you what to do with it as well as have absolutely no background info.
G:T Mainbook has all kinds of essays and Editorials and sidebars that ease the entry into the pastime that Traveller is. The rules part of G:T is of no import.
LBB rules + Info texts and Library Data from G:T should be fine.
Quote from: SettembriniLBB rules + Info texts and Library Data from G:T should be fine.
That's what I do.
Don't forget Citizens of the Imperium... that book is pretty much indispensable for a Traveller campaign IMO.
Quote from: KnightskyDon't forget Citizens of the Imperium... that book is pretty much indispensable for a Traveller campaign IMO.
To quote the kids today, "Word".
Quote from: mattormegI have a suspicion that we tend to view our retro-gaming experiences with rose-colored glasses.
What about those of us that never stopped playing our favorite games? How do I feel nostalgia for a Cyclopedia D&D game session from earlier this month? :confused:
Nah. Nothing truly great ever stops being so. That's axiomatic.
QuoteNah. Nothing truly great ever stops being so. That's axiomatic.
Wow! My RC thusly does +2 enhancement bonus and 2d6 of additional damage against chaotic creatures?!
I have been itching to run a game of classic Traveller lately. I love that fucking game.
Quote from: AosI have been itching to run a game of classic Traveller lately. I love that fucking game.
It loves you back, man. Seriously, you're all it talks about. I'm sittin' there in Math class and CT is all, like, "You know, the other day, Aos was looking over his shelf and I kinda smiled at him and..." I looked down at its notebook, and I swear I saw the words
CT and Aos 4EVA-787665-B Ri In, 4 Batteries Bearing, DM +2 if Str 6+.
You better do somethin' quick, dude.
Quote from: mattormegI have a suspicion that we tend to view our retro-gaming experiences with rose-colored glasses. That being said, I tend to enjoy the simplicity as a respite from some of the Forge-type productions that are so popular now.
I have a suspicion we massively type cast it.
Seriously, I hate this vibe that old school means random dungeons and no character growth. It's bollocks.
By the early 1980s, 1982 say, there were already a huge range of different styles of rpg, some hack and slay and some not even slightly.
Old school included Traveller, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu is pretty damn old school.
Retro gaming is a meaningless term IMO.
I disagree, I think "retro gaming" is really all about playing the way you did when you were a teenager when you didn't ask yourself too many questions about life, you just spent the summer doing 12 hour game sessions.
It's a mid-life crisis much like any other.
But you are right that the idea that gaming suddenly got complicated in the 90's is clearly nonsense.
So retro gaming is nob jokes and giving everyone the most powerful items in the book out of boredom? I think I may pass in that case.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI disagree, I think "retro gaming" is really all about playing the way you did when you were a teenager when you didn't ask yourself too many questions about life, you just spent the summer doing 12 hour game sessions.
It's a mid-life crisis much like any other.
But you are right that the idea that gaming suddenly got complicated in the 90's is clearly nonsense.
I think gaming got more self conscious in the 1990s, though.
My own concept of retro gaming is just playing an old game that I played a long time ago. For example, I could apply this to video gaming- I got Gametap for a while and it had stuff like the Ultima series, a bunch of C64 games, stuff like that.
Quote from: BalbinusSo retro gaming is nob jokes and giving everyone the most powerful items in the book out of boredom? I think I may pass in that case.
Ehhhh...I define it the way Abyssal Maw just did: less self-conscious. A littl more about the fun and a little less about the craft. Seizing upon that fresh, exploratory, everything-is-new sense of wonder and possibilities.
'Least, that's what I'm after.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!It loves you back, man. Seriously, you're all it talks about. I'm sittin' there in Math class and CT is all, like, "You know, the other day, Aos was looking over his shelf and I kinda smiled at him and..." I looked down at its notebook, and I swear I saw the words CT and Aos 4EVA-787665-B Ri In, 4 Batteries Bearing, DM +2 if Str 6+.
You better do somethin' quick, dude.
Sadly it hasn't been on my shelf for years. My dad threw out all my gaming stuff during the period when we weren't talking. It's okay though, because he's dead now.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Ehhhh...I define it the way Abyssal Maw just did: less self-conscious. A littl more about the fun and a little less about the craft. Seizing upon that fresh, exploratory, everything-is-new sense of wonder and possibilities.
When I look at these people trying to play retro games I see a quite sad bunch of people. On the one hand, I see people mourning their lost youth when their hobby was still fresh and new and you could play all day and on the other hand I see quite a reactionnary anti-intellectual manifesto against the more novel things done in games today.
It's like right wing newspapers that talk about the good old days when you could leave your door unlocked and middle-aged guys buying red sports cars and dating women much younger than them... it's self-consciously trying to be unself-conscious.
I can totally empathise with where the feelings are coming from, I just don't think it's healthy to look backwards to improve our lives. Firstly because actually being a teenager was pretty fucking horrific. Sure you got to game all day but you never had any money, the closest you got to sex were like 5 hour make-out sessions after which you had to get the bus home with balls like bowling balls and you had to live with your parents. The idea that gaming in the old days was better than it is today is an illusion just as misleading as the idea that we were happier when we were younger.
Golly, I thought it was just that liked classic traveller as a system.
I wouldn't count that as part of the same phenomenon.
What if i wear disco clothes while we're playing?
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhen I look at these people trying to play retro games I see a quite sad bunch of people. On the one hand, I see people mourning their lost youth when their hobby was still fresh and new and you could play all day and on the other hand I see quite a reactionnary anti-intellectual manifesto against the more novel things done in games today.
Unfortunately, the only response I can offer is "OK by you, but I'm enjoying it and that makes me happy". If you think that makes me a "sad" person, umn...you might've missed the part where I said "happy".
Sure, but that doesn't stop it from being a mid-life crisis does it?
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalSure, but that doesn't stop it from being a mid-life crisis does it?
Is it a mid-life crisis? You can call it whatever you want. I'm'a call it "gaming", and do some tonight.
Plus, I should hope I don't check out at 64.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhen I look at these people trying to play retro games I see a quite sad bunch of people. On the one hand, I see people mourning their lost youth when their hobby was still fresh and new and you could play all day and on the other hand I see quite a reactionnary anti-intellectual manifesto against the more novel things done in games today.
The supposition here being that "games today" are more highly-intellectual than they were in previous decades, which I is not a premise that I accept at all.
QuoteIt's like right wing newspapers that talk about the good old days when you could leave your door unlocked and middle-aged guys buying red sports cars and dating women much younger than them... it's self-consciously trying to be unself-conscious.
I can totally empathise with where the feelings are coming from, I just don't think it's healthy to look backwards to improve our lives. Firstly because actually being a teenager was pretty fucking horrific. Sure you got to game all day but you never had any money, the closest you got to sex were like 5 hour make-out sessions after which you had to get the bus home with balls like bowling balls and you had to live with your parents. The idea that gaming in the old days was better than it is today is an illusion just as misleading as the idea that we were happier when we were younger.
None of this addresses people whose tastes in gaming have remained consistant over the years. It seems to assume a situation where I at one point stopped playing games that I enjoyed when I was younger in favor of a whole new set of games (or a whole new play style), and then reversed my opinion and switched back later.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Is it a mid-life crisis? You can call it whatever you want. I'm'a call it "gaming", and do some tonight.
Hope you enjoy yourself :)
We were speaking on different levels yeah? I've never denied that it was fun (I've even toyed with the notion of running some RC game myself) but I do think the desire to relive old gaming glories comes from the same place as a 40 year-old's urge to buy a Porsche.
Quote from: YamoThe supposition here being that "games today" are more highly-intellectual than they were in previous decades, which I is not a premise that I accept at all.
No, I completely agree with you. I think the bulk of the hobby is unchanged since its initial inception. Having said that, the "retro-gaming" fad or movement does set itself up as a reaction to whatever it is that's going on currently in gaming. If there's any characterisation of what the hobby today is then it's not coming from me... I'm merely commenting upon the perception that fuels the retro-gaming movement.
If there's any editorialising going on it's merely me expressing my disappointnment at the desire of people to sign up to what is a reactionnary artistic manifesto, partly because you're absolutely right in saying that the bulk of the hobby hasn't changed since the 70's.